ChuckAuger

My Feedback: (12)

Level headed and thoughtful as always, Phil.

I want to make a couple of points.

First, I have bought several lipos...I have actually purchased 11 packs, one was given to me by a buddy. Every one of the packs I purchased had extensive warnings and a full sheet of instructions. Six of the packs have a warning lable affixed to them that says " By removing this tag, you acknowledge that you have read the warnings..." or such. So by simply purchasing the packs, I also purchased the warnings to go with them.

Second, I have purchased these packs from a couple of online shops and have shopped around at a few more. Most (not all) have their page set up where you have to read the entire warning and click agree before you can even get to the price list. Again, just by purchasing the packs I have read the warnings.

Third, I don't want to burn my house down, or my car, or my flying field. Sure I'm going to be careful! After reading all the stuff on the internet, I was more than a little concerned about the dangers. I also reload rifle ammuntion in my home, literally a powder keg (small keg) and I don't want that to blow up, either. But after selecting a dedicated charger and being careful, I have thus far avoided any of the pitfalls of Lipo charging. Never had a reload mis-fire, either.

Fourth, in the email (I didn't get one, but I know the AMA has my email address..I renew online) it says to not make packs from loose cells. Why is that?? The AMA has no idea of my level of expertise. The one pack I have that I didn't buy, the one given to me, is assembled from loose cells. It is every bit as professionally assembled as the commercially available batteries. Are we not, after all, modelers??

Fifth, while I agree that there is some risk associated with the misuse of Lipos, I don't think they are inherently more dangerous than many other products common to model aviation. Certain glues, paints, thinners, fuels, engines, all have the potential to cause just as much damage to property or health as Lipos. It's just that Lipos are..what was the phrase?...a wonderful new curse?? They are the new danger, the new threat of the week.

What irks me over the whole matter is I feel I should be able to decide, on my own, whether or not I am willing to accept the responsibility of using this new technology and doing it safely. And the choir will chime in, just don't bring that stuff to an AMA field. Dave says it's bad. Well, it's going to be hard to stuff the genie back into the bottle. If the Luddites had their way, that's what would have to happen. And all of the people that were enjoying them in a safe manner would just be out of luck.

I guess time will tell how aggressive the AMA will be in regulating them. Maybe not at all. I just don't want to go quietly away, I enjoy what Lipos bring to the table and with recent SC actions as my barometer I wanted to let it be known I wasn't just gonna roll over again.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

JR,
The what? There is no subject in your sentence and it's Voodoo not "Voodo". Keep it up and urine trouble.

J_R

Hi Chuck

You can check the e-mail address that the AMA has by going to the online renewal and putting in your AMA number and password. The rest of the information on file will show up, including your e-mail address.

What is the gripe with Don Lowe and the Safety Committee? Just curious.

Phil Cole

All those posts regarding the AMA email occurred during the time I was composing my little missive, so nothing I said concerned the Safety Committee's email.

I did receive the email, so I guess I'm on the AMA's list of potential LiPo hazards .

It does seem to infer that lithium metal will spontaneously ignite when exposed to oxygen. I don't think that's the case. It has to be heated to ignition temperature. I remember in high school demostrations of the reaction of Lithium and water. The teacher cut a chunk of lithium off a big block and dropped it into a beaker of water. The lithium in the air seemed quite stable.

The loose cell warning is probably due to the need to match cells, so that charging mulitple cells in a battery doesn't result in individual cells being overcharged. It is a bit presumptuous to assume that all home-assemblers don't have the necessary knowledge, but I can see the other side...

"Let's see. I have six good cells in this pack I just crashed, and another four over here in this other pack I don't use any more, so I'll just join them all together to get ten cells."

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

I just got the e-mail. It went into my bulk file which is appropriate.

skerrin

I wasn't going to jump into this, but I can't let Abel, J_R and a few others paint the San Diego Wingmasters as a bunch of uneducated technophobic battery Nazis. The decision to place a temporary (six month) moratorium on the use of LiPo at our field was reached after a great deal of discussion and research. This effort entailed web searches, discussions with electric clubs, manufacturers, vendors, and designers of industrial equipment utilizing LiPo for power. The take-home lesson was that the current state of LiPo technology, as applied to model aircraft, presents an increased risk of fire over other available technologies currently in use at our field. The moratorium allows time for additional research, formulation of sensible guidelines and, if need be, rules to mitigate the risks associated with LiPos.

Our field is located on an old landfill and surrounded by California Coastal Chapparal. Read that as a bunch of dry brush waiting for an ignition source. We have an excellent safety record and a strong relationship with our landlord, the County of San Diego. However, they have made it clear that noise problems or a fire due to our activities could end our enjoyment of the field. Adding additional fire risk to current operations was deemed inappropriate at this time.

Our club is very laid-back. We don't have many rules other than common sense and 90 dB, or less, at 9 feet. The board maintains a low profile and keeps a light hand on the reins. We currently have 88 members, 12-15 of whom fly electric. Only three of those are known to fly LiPo. We encourage electric flight and more than one member believes that e-flight is the future of the club if we are to retain our site as more homes are built around the old landfill. Three of the five Board members fly electric. Two of us design and scratch-build many of our own projects and will use LiPo when allowed. This was not a capricious, arbitrary, or uneducated decision. Only one member has voiced his severe displeasure over the ban. I fully believe that the temporary ban will be lifted when the issue is revisited at the October meeting, if not before. Meanwhile, we believe the moratorium is in the best long-term interest of the majority of the members and a conservative approach rather than a luddite mentality.

End of rant.

Steve Kerrin,
San Diego Wingmasters, Inc.

abel_pranger

BB-
It's definitely old news for most guys that have been involved with e-power and comes across as naive re the chemistry, but as has been pointed out in an earlier post, there are classes of models that have both an appeal to novices and a dependence on the energy density advantage of LiPo. Personally, I don't think beginners should be messing around with LiPo's at all, but I really don't see any way short of draconian measures few of us would want to see effected to prevent it. For that audience at least, I think the AMA message is appropriate - and timely given the recent article by Bob Hunt in MA that has no doubt sparked some keen interest in some folks without previous exposure to the substantial advantages of this relatively new (to model propulsion) power source.
Good thread, especially well thought out posts by Chuck Auger and Phill Cole. More like that is needed to demonstrate to the rulemakers that we aren't all morons that need them to usurp our intelligence, responsibility and good judgement and make our decisions for us.

Abel

ChuckAuger

My Feedback: (12)

None what-so-ever, except for the coincidence of Dave Brown being in the loop. My abbreviation "SC" in the last post was not well thought out.. I meant "Safety Code", not "Safety Committee". Mea Culpa.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Abel,
Untill two months ago I was one of those electric neophytes you spoke of. In the course of trying to put together a system I had to read through all the warnings that Chuck mentioned in his post. After a month of using Li-Poly's I am now the one answering questions at the field and am deemed an expert. Point is, the things are not brain surgery and the same as when I got into gas engines once you do a little research and buy it the learning curve is pretty easy. The AMA notice is fine and DB's article didn't bother me, he has to write something and show he cares. In a couple of years this whole conversation will look silly. The people who are going to cause problems are the ones that won't read or heed the warnings and no amount of articles will help them.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Hmmm ... so these new-fangled battery-doodahs are safe if used accoridng to some strict guidelines, but potentially dangerous in the hands of the uninitiated ?

I have the solution, ladies & gents - it's time for <commence drum roll> .... the Li-Poly Waiver !!! We can have Li-Poly CDs to sign people off as qualified Li-Poly users, require all Li-Poly users to carry fire-fighting equipment, do manufacturer's ground school, be tested while performing a series of recommended Li-Poly charge & discharge maneuvers, and the whole works !!

Yeah - I'm liking it already !!

Gordon

J_R

ROFLMAO

Bitter, bitter, bitter! Next you'll want APC prop waivers.

bentgear

I can see it now, APC prop cuts thru Li-Po battery - subdivision evacuated because of huge fireball.

Ed M.

soumas

Chuck,
I agree with your thinking 100%, which is hard for me, I don't usually feel that strongly about anything. Anything as good as the "new" Lithium technology is not going to go away no matter what the rules makers say. Rules are only as good as those following them. It is quite difficult to acquire LiPo batteries and cells without being made aware of their hazards. Anyone ignoring the proper safety measures has only him or herself to blame. The problem is, the idiots just might cause us untold difficulties in trying to promote a new technology that has the potential to benefit every one. I am reminded of the abounding efforts to ban guns. Same kind of narrow-minded thinking that believes people should be protected from themselves. Re: motorcycle helmets, seat belts, "don't eat the silica packet," etc.
If we make too much noise about this, the wrong kind of bureaucrat is going to pick up on it and begin a crusade.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Okay, I'm no battery expert, but if I'm understanding the LiPoly deal correctly let's look at your statement in the following context...

So, what exactly happens if someone goes to a flea market and buys a 2nd hand plane that (unbeknownst to him) has LiPolys in it, takes it home and hooks it up to his regular fast charger ? I think that these are the kind of situations that we need to be concerned about. The guy who just bought that plane may never even have heard of LiPolys, or the fact that they need to be charged differently. He isn't "ignoring the proper safety measures" - he simply doesn't know that there is any new danger that he needs to be aware of. As far as he knows, all models use NiCads, coz that's what he has been flying for 20 years, and that's what the vast majority of models still use.

The AMA often over-reacts, and they do have some history of coming up with "safety" rules that do nothing to address safety... but I do think it is right for them to try to get the message out (though it would of course help if the message was the right one) when it is clear that some danger exists that the membership needs to be better educated about.

As for the analogies with props, guns, etc ... while I do agree that we are over-the-top with warning messages (so much so that their value is significantly diluted because we get warned about everything, even stuff that is not dangerous), I think these analogies fall a little bit short. For instance, to be truly analougous in this context, we would have to be talking about some new-ish kind of prop that needs a different kind of care and attention than all previous types of props, in order for it not to turn into flying shrapnel. Almost everyone understands that a spinning prop can do serious damage to you, and so they take care to avoid having the prop come in contact with them. But what if there were a new kind of prop that could only safely be attached to the engine by means of a special type of wrench, and the prop stood a pretty good chance of coming apart and causing serious injury if you attached it with your regular prop-wrench instead ? Should we just scoff at those who end up with bits of prop embeded in their heads as being idiots who didn't read the instructions (which they may not even have been aware of if they got the goods 2nd hand), or should we make a special effort to get the word out that these new props truly are dangerous if you treat them like regular props ?

Would you like to be standing right next to the guy who's LiPo is about to go south in a big way, right next to his half gallon of gas ? If the answer is no, then help educate him before he ever even becomes a LiPoly owner.

Reg's,
Gordon

the troll

Hey I have a novel idea.

Maybe the AMA could educate people the correct methods and ways to utilize the technologies at our disposal...err...what was I thinking?... gosh darn it... it is much easier to mandate, regulate and deny the sheep instead. Sorry had a brain FHart for a second.

soumas

Gordon,
I'm with you to a certain extent. I once saw an experienced scale competitor start his glow engine with a balsa scale prop. Balsa hurts too! I think we are doing a good job of spreading the word on the dangers of LiPo batteries. I can't believe that anyone who has been using NiCads for twenty years hasn't heard of LiPos. But, despite our poor analogies the points are well taken. Any relatively new technology faces some resistance to acceptance. I think, though, that where danger like this is concerned that resistance may be well founded. I just worry that the over-protective powers that be, will, once again, go overboard with rules and regulations.

ChuckAuger

My Feedback: (12)

Analogies aside, if somebody buys something used, without instructions, who knows what it will do. Like the guy who buys a "gas turbine plane" and fuels it up with gas. Or the guy who buys a "gas powered" plane and it's actually glow. Or a used car that was diesel and he drives to an AMA field with a tank of gasoline and imolates the flightline. "What if" "What if". There is no depth of human stupidity, the Darwin Awards will back me up on this one. I reckon the best we, as modelers, can hope for is some Bell Curve in stupidity vs proficiency regarding purchases of every sort. Can a modeler not buy a turbine and blow up his whole club if he put gasoline or glow fuel in it?? Just because there is a waiver for turbine pilots, can idiots not still purchase them?? Can he not buy a pylon engine and injure somebody with a thrown prop?? What if?? What if he buys a bad jar of mayonaise and poisons the whole cub with sammiches?? Sammich waiver?? (I hope some of the less-that-intelligent posters can recognize sarcasm )

Y'all have fun.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

The difference is that I believe its a whole heck of a lot harder for the guy who bought that plane to mistakenly think that the engine that is buried deep inside his new model is just a regular glo or gasoline engine and not realise his mistake until after he somehow manages to start it up and makes a fireball, than it is for him to hook his nicad charger up to the li-polys. When all that Grandpaw sees when he looks at his new model is a regular charge jack, and not some kind of special connector that makes him wonder what on earth he just bought, it's not unreasonable for him to say to himself "Lemme charge the battery up and see whether it works, or if it needs to be replaced".

In other words, the substantial difference is in wheter there is anything remotely obvious to clue the new owner into the fact that this battery isn't a Nicad, and that it needs much different treatment than the nicads that he is used to. So, once again, the key is education. Friendly education, too. Telling people that they are stupid if they do not somehow already know about the dangers of charging LiPolys with a regular Nicad charger won't do much good. People generally don't like to be called stupid, so rather than ask questions and get looked down upon by those who always know the latest info about batteries, the neophyte may keep his question to himself and do someone some serious damage. It is much better, IMO, to be welcoming in your willingness to educate others about the dangers and the appropriate safety precautons of those areas of the hobby that you know about and they do not. Several of the clubs that I have flown turbines at, had people who knew nothing of turbines and displayed the classic fear of the unknown, so were quite dismissive of having these dangerous beasts around. Calling these folk stupid would not have helped at all, but by means of a gradual process of education and inviting different people to "spot" for me each flight, and explaining the saftey procedures while I had them help me with the startup process (etc) I managed to educate a substantial number of people about the unique requirments, dangers, saftey precautions, and enjoyments that are inherent in the turbine aspect of the hobby, without ever making any of them feel that I was looking down on them for their lack of prior knowledge of the subject.

Gordon

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

every LiPo setup i have encountered so far, does NOT have a standard charge jack of the kind joe modler is accustomed to. most have a rather heavy duty connector, that says real quick, i can handle some amps.

ChuckAuger

My Feedback: (12)

How do you figure?? Your POV is obviously one of a turbine flyer. I'm sure it's harder for you to imagine, but not me. Of course if I point that out, then I'm calling someone "Stupid"

Yep, and I have helped a number of people get started off right with LiPos and never called one stupid yet. The "stupid" part of my post was hyperbole, obviously I should have inserted a "hyperbole" warning along with "sarcasm".

First off, Gordon, it has been my experience with Lipos that they are not often used as flight pack batteries, but more often as motor power source batteries. The connectors are, generally, different than one could expect to find on your typical radio charger. There is a much more likely scenario where the flea market buyer would buy a JR TX and attempt to charge, then use, it with a Futaba wall wart (or vice versa). No instructions, dire consequences.

Second, not much commercially available radio equipment is designed to operate on 7.4V, so the typical wall wart charger would not over charge a 7.4V Lipo based on voltage even if it were somehow connected to the radio of the flea market plane. It might over charge on current, I honestly don't know. But I think your scenario of somebody buying a plane with a LiPo flight pack and exploding it with stock or common flight pack chargers is a bit far fetched. I think it would be far more likely that anybody selling such a set up would be yanking the expensive things out before the sale, or pointing the feature out as a premium, but that, as well as your scenario, is conjecture.

Third, a 7.4V flight pack battery would need a voltage regulator in order to operate a flight pack. Not sure if Grampaw would be able to charge thru this regulator (the regulator might be between the battery and RX, not the switch..I've never used a Lipo flight pack).

I guess what I'm getting at is...It would be, right now, pretty unlikely that Grampaw would get ahold of a plane at a flea market with a LiPo flight pack. If he did, it's likely that whoever was selling it would either charge a premium for said flight pack, or at least point it out as a novelty. Not guaranteed, but they are not very common right now.

EDIT When I was typing this, I had not yet seen Mongos post about the connectors, which I agree with and mentioned in my post.

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

Guys, stop being stupid and paranoid. (Some of you anyway).

"How many of you actually know of a fire resulting from LiPos?" Ok you got me there. I only watched my best friend's house burned to the ground by lithium Ions, so I guess I'm out. This was 2 years ago, NONE of the published info on these things was widely available, and the product, Duralite Plus, said it was completely safe. Only after that fire and MANY others that I am personally aware of did the warnings come into being. At first, they were marketed as TOTALLY SAFE. They are NOT totally safe!

The battery pack was on charge, and according to records the area experienced a power surge which knocked out the diode in the "charge safe circuitry" in the battery itself...the charger had NO failsafe device built in. The charger, now unregulated, turned the battery pack into a road flare and subsequently burned his house to the ground. I have pics if you'd like to see them.

I don't see anyone trying to ban these batteries, and frankly I don't think that is even under consideration, no matter what you may believe. But people DO need to be aware of how dangerous these things can be IF something goes wrong.

I firmly believe these batteries have a place in our world, but I also believe they were rushed to market without adequate warnings and proceedures. It's a little different now with the information currently available, but I don't think most of you realize how many of these fires there were before the warnings became common place. Like the FAA, the rules in place were written in blood so to speak. After what I have PERSONALLY seen with MY OWN EYES, I am totally suprised someone wasn't killed.

If proper warnings and proceedures are in place, then by all means we should be able to use at our own risk....and shouldn't be ABLE to file a claim against AMA if we burn our own house to the ground, now should we? So all we need is to make SURE people are aware of the dangers. I can tell almost all of you don't want to accept it for a second, because you haven't personally seen it. Do you really have to stick your hand in a fire to see if it's really hot?

Wake the f* up people. You didn't see it for yourself, so it must be exaggerated. It's not. It's a very REAL danger, and a person needs to know IN DETAIL what he's dealing with before he hooks a charger to one of these things. Just like the gasoline analogy, or the prop...you KNOW they will mess you up....why are you so unwilling to accept the dangers of these batteries? Just accept it, use the proper precautions, and that's the end. If these fires become too common, then the problems may outweigh the benefits.

Bottom line: Use at your own risk. If you are too thick headed to accept the dangers and take precaution, then I hope you DO get burned alive, one less moron in the gene pool if you ask me.

And yes I'd use them, but then I would treat the things like live grenades too. You don't get careless with a loaded gun, why would you get careless with a chemical pack that only needs X voltage and X heat to explode in flames? That's called an incindeary grenade folks.

Ya know I really have no idea why I'm wasting my time typing this. You either "get it" already, or you're part of the problem.

Screw it that's all, have fun out there. Try not to die or anything.

-Mike

TGoodwin

I watched the video with great interest. Yep it burned alrite. I have to say that it does'nt seem to burn as hot or as violently as a liter or two of gasoline or even Jet-A. Just like anything else precations need to be taken around things that may harm us. Common sense.

Ted

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Not that anyone cares, but if this issue gets more serious (meaning potential rules actions that some of you don't like) I would suggest you stay away from this tactic....the "hey these lipos are no more dangerous than these 500 other things like gas, props, so why don't they have rules too" tactic.


It gets nowhere, take it from one of the turbine warriors

ChuckAuger

My Feedback: (12)

Matt, I was playing Devil's advocate, not using that argument myself. I guess the notes about hyperbole and sarcasm got thrown out in the wash. The only reason I even used "turbine" in my hypothetical argument was for Gordon's benefit. "What if"....can be applied to so many different aspects of this hobby, pick one. If nothing else the sheer numbers of Lipo batteries vs the number of turbines would make the batteries a much greater threat statistically (just using turbines this one instance, Matt Not picking on you). Yet at electric fly ins, the flight line does not look like a 4th of July display. Just like the instances of hot starts are minimal at turbine fly ins, gas fires are rare at big bird fly ins. Sammich poisonings, .......oh never mind.


If I had a paved runway, I'd be a turbine waiver holder and turbine owner right along with being a Lipo owner/user. I'd have as much a healthy respect for the potential dangers as with anything else I do. But that's me, not the other guy. And the other guy is who the AMA is worried about...you and I just get regulated along with the masses.


Mike, sorry to hear of your buddies house. Interesting that the charge safe circuit in the pack (the device the AMA supports in the recent alert) failed. Whenever statistics are used (for anything, getting struck by lightning, anything) it's always "One in a thousand chance" or "One in a million". It sucks being the one.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Have you ever tried to start a turbine ? You can't start it with the same approach as used in a glow or gas engine, so for the guy who thinks his model has a glow or gas engine in it to get far enough for there to a serious consequence, is pretty difficult - much more difficult IMO than plugging his existing fast charger into a regular charge jack.

However, your point that things are sometimes harder to imagine based on your POV is very valid. That's one of the things I was trying to get across earlier, that just because certain battery facts are obvious to those of you who use them extensively, does not mean that they are obvious to everyone else.

I should perhaps have pointed out that my point about calling people stupid was not solely in response to your post - I've seen lots of posts lately in which it is claimed that for there to be a problem with the batteries you have to be dumb and do stupid things, so my response was intended in general, not just to your one specific post. Appologies if it came across otherwise.

I've seen several used as RX batteries, and while the battery itself may a different connector in it, the charge jack that is on the RX switch does not - it's just a regular connector. That is that part that can easily give the impression that this is just a regular battery.

In my experience, charging a JR TX with a Futaba charger (or vice versa) will simply blow a fuse in the charge circuitry of the TX. I've never heard of one causing a fire. A blown fuse is not particularly dire in comparison to a fire IMO.

Maybe its just the crowd I fly with, but hardly anyone seems to only use a "stock" charger anymore. Fast chargers seem to be the order of the day ... all capable of pumping out plenty of voltage and current - up to 12v at over 5 amps, no problem.

A Nicad 5 cell pack is 6.0v nominal but often up to 8v peak. Maybe it's different for LiPoly RX packs, but for Nicad RX packs the regulator is generally put between the switch and the RX, not between the switch-cum-charge-jack and the battery.

Yup - that is quite likely in the majority of cases right now while these batteries are not all that common. However,
[ul][*] (a) I think that this is the time to get the education out there, before the batteries become more common and the potential problem becomes much harder to address;[*] (b) if you don't want to risk the possibility that the strong arm of the AMA may come up with draconian rules governing these batteries, then you may be well advised to consider the "minority cases" as well and try to decide whether there is something you can do to reduce their likelihood. How many insurance claims do you think the AMA will accept for accidents related to battery explosions, before they react (or more likely over-react) with a range of rules that you may find unacceptable ? Might it not be advisable to make an effort to head some of that off before it happens ?[*] (c) I started this particular line of discussion simply to counter the notion that all would be well if people simply read the instructions. Believe it or not, I'm not against LiPolys at all - I'm simply trying to indicate that there are some aspects to this argument that would be better addressed by a friendly campaign of pro-actively educating people about the issue rather than waiting for a problem and then telling the guy he was dumb, he should already have known that there were substantially different battery types in existence, should have already known that there were different and very important safety issues to be concerned about, and should have known that even if he didn't get a set of safety instructions with his 2nd hand model, he should have asked whether the model contained anything "unusual" that might explode on him if treated incorrectly.
[/ul]

Later,
Gordon

[edit: correct typo]