I think a lot of folks are over reacting! I spoke with the VP on June 1st, among other things he did mention the hovering situation and it is NOT to "ban hovering" , the concerns that he communicated were with individuals approaching the aircraft on the runway while it is hovering and holding the tail. I have not seen this done or would think it would be allowed anywhere myself but , this thread seems to be a "doomsday" thread for hovering in general, and that is NOT the case, you guy's who can control a plane while hovering like some of the guy's in our club are SUPERIOR pilot's! That maneuver takes a great amount of skill! most pilot's who practice these maneuvers are considerate of the others flying, as posted , ALL flyers just need to be considerate of one another. Don't take a particular isolated incident and call a "Ban" for all, thats not what it is........Bud

I was witness to one of these "grab the hovering plane" deals recently. THAT I can see the AMA stepping in and trying curb as an unheathy activity.

the plane in question was a 35% edge. the "grabber" would grab the tail, work his way up the fuse until he could get at the wing, and just pluck the plane out of the hover and set it down.

totally insane to watch. mostly I loved it!! but a part of me was cringing about it thinking - boy, could this be some bad press if something went wrong!.

theres another $.02, (man this is getting expensive)

Hubb

Tatoo,

We've had it out on other subjects in the past. This is the first posting you've put up that I can agree with.

Please don't curtail you're posting simply because we both seem to hit it off bad online. I think we would get along well at the flying field, you just seem to touch the trigger points of my psyche online. Sorry to jump on you but, you echo the viewpoints of the ones I've had to combat at the club meetings. You know, the ones who;
- want everyone to fly the same plane and do ciruits only
- don't want no d*mn whirleybirds at the field
- don't like them hoverin' types messin up their circuits
- don't like them nasty profile planes or anything that doesn't look like a "real" plane
- don't like APC props 'cause they're dangerously sharp
- ....

Check this out.

Let me see if I understand.......


30% or larger airplane with a 20+ inch diameter prop, plane is hovering at eye level in front of a crowd of spectators or worse yet pilots busy flying their airplanes on the flightline. This is safe right????? I don't care how much skill you have as a pilto or how good you think you are airplanes can break, radios can fail and what do you have a flying meat cleaver that can go into the pilot's stations. I have nothing against hovering, I can do it and it is really not that big a skill. If you must hover why not do it well on the far side of the runway instead of right in the face of spectators.


David Reid

let me see if I understand....

Same plane... doing a high speed pass. This is safer how?

guys go fly your airplanes, have fun. Scale guys hovering is cool, just as cool as the 12' B-17 that requires alot of airspace. If the guy hovering bothers you ask him to do it to the side of the runway, or even better ask if you could fly his airplane. New Experiences Are Good!

Depending on the location, the issue is the duration of exposure.

Yes, both activities carry risks (as does all R/C aircraft activity). However, think for a minute about the amount of time that the other pilots are exposed to the danger.

When someone is doing high-speed passes while I'm flying, I am exposed to the danger from his aircraft for maybe 1 second per pass, with each circuit taking maybe 20 seconds (?) - so I'm exposed to the danger maybe 5% of the time I'm out there. Conversely, when someone hovers their giant-scaler right in my face they tend to do it almost CONTINUOUSLY. Thus my exposure, and consequently the overall risk, is VERY much higher. Now, if they would move that hover to somewhere else (away from me) then my exposure in this case would actually be less than from a high-speed pass.

YMMV. For what it's worth, I'm not against either high speed passes or hovering. I do (or try to do) both myself (sometimes quite badly), but I do my best to ensure that each is done either when I'm up alone, or done sufficiently far out so as to reduce risk to other pilots on the flightline. One thing I've never understood about some of the guys doing the very-close-in hovering in my club, is why they refuse to do it in front of themselves, and instead insist on doing it right in front of one of the other pilots. There would probably be less complaints if they would do it in front of themselves...

Regards,
Gordon

Some good points Gord,

I disagree only slightly with the "exposure time" pov though. The high speed pass carries far more kinetic energy and far more "potential area coverage" so the two cannot be compared directly based on time exposed.
Also,
If I have a radio glitch while hover, my pcm system will simply shut down my throttle and I'm left with a broken plane almost directly under where I was hovering. If I'm doing a high speed pass however....

When I fly a scale plane I have a lot of time into, I simply pick a quiet time or as for some free airspace time....

I also, am not against either maneuver in question and think comon sense should prevail. As for hovering in front of other pilots; bad form! Someone might think mistake them for performing the maneuver and me endlessly flying circuits.

Seriously, when I hover it's always toward the outer limit of the runway and always directly in front of me. The torque rolls (when I can manage them) do drift with the wind though but, I always bail out before getting any closer than mid runway. Courtesy is prime, I clear out when someone else wants centre stage or needs the runway. Same goes when I fly heli at the field, no problems or complaints so far. There were a few nervous nellies when I introduced helis to the flightline but, the last couple years they've been accepted as equals (as they should be).

If you read all the post on this web site and find the ones someone is "venting" on you will be here for a long time.

Some of this gets absolutely ridiculous. This is so simple it doesn't even require thought.

You are going to die one day, you can't stop it, you can't prevent it.

After hovering, helicopters, jets, gassers, 4 strokes, two strokes, electrics, rubber bands, and everything else someone wants to ban is banned, we can all go to the field and watch the birds fly by.

Until, a bird flies into somebody and puts out an eye. While we are at it, better ban the birds too...

I'm gonna practice my hovering my gas powered, jet propelled, giant scale, helicopter with wings held on by rubber bands airplane now... At the local elementary school so the little kids can see....

It's OK with me. Did you think I was going to go on and on??? Haaaaa! I expressed my lengthy opinion in the last one like this.

1) Taildrager, you did five for fighting and I think you should be let out of the box now.

2) Dave Bowles, keep on hovering your disc, it looks awesome!!

3) We should all elect Marc (rcadmin) for the AMA President.

And now for the bottom line......

Courtesy, courtesy, courtesy at the field.

JW

I agree that the fast pass is likely to carry more energy, however for the majority of the circuit the aircraft is pointed away from the flightline, so that energy is also directed away from the flightline. That may of course vary depending on PCM/PPM choice, PCM failsafe settings etc - but in my experience the mast majority of PCM users set their failsafe to "hold", so I'm basing the above on that.


Also, If I have a radio glitch while hover, my pcm system will simply shut down my throttle and I'm left with a broken plane almost directly under where I was hovering. If I'm doing a high speed pass however....


Again, that depends on both the position of the aircraft at the time of the glitch, and the failsafe settings (if any). Not everyone is as smart as you when it comes to these settings. Since most people (in my experience) wrongly look at failsafe as a way to try to save their aircraft rather than a way of reducing risk to life & limb, they tend to set "hold" ... which would not be pretty for a 40% aircraft that is hovering 25ft in front of me. Additionally, consider the failsafe delay... I see an awful lot of people selecting 1 second - and that's plenty of time for a close-in aircraft to tilt inwards and shew me up while it's waiting for either (a) a valid signel, or (b) 1 second to elapse before engaging failsafe settings.

Again, I'm not trying to suggest that high-speed passes are safe and hovering close-in is not - I'm just trying to point out that if we think things through then we can in each case figure out whether there is an easy way of reducing the risk without killing off the fun.

Regs,
Gordon

This is very entertaining

So far I have seen just about all the disciplines mentioned, with the exception of pattern fliers.

I guess we are just nice friendly guys to fly with, maybe you should all just start flying pattern and this whole hovering thing would go away

The world would be a better place if everyone flew pattern

Nice troll, adding patttern into the mix. Too bad Gerald (DR1Driver) isn't here to add his rant re: the comparative pleasures of watching pattern or watching paint dry.

Ouch! Good point Gordon.
I understand the fail-safe delay is not even programmable for some models. I wonder what the default is....

Thats cause he doesnt appreciate the finer things in life

Well Guys. I also saw the the agenda on the AMA website also. I immediately popped off an e-mail to our AVP (Jim McNeill). By the way he is one listed as presenting the topic. Anyway I carbon copied Dave Brown when I sent Jim the e-mail. I did not receive a response from McNeill (big surprise!) but I did receive one from Dave Brown. His response confirmed that Jim McNeill had this on the boards but he said he would be surprised if it actually went anywhere. He said the safety committee has looked at hovering and the only thing mentioned was something to the effect that hovering must be at least a certain distance away from anyone (except the pilot). He thought that 25ft had been mentioned. These recommendations occurred due to some pilots inviting the audience to approach hovering airplanes to "Wax the Tail" so to speak.
If this information is factual (which I believe it is), this should pose no threat to those who hover their aircraft responsibly.

Also someone mentioned that they wondered why McNeill was bringing this up when he has not asked his district membership how they feel. Well that's the way he does things. His way or no way.

Jim_McIntyre,
Now you've really got me digging deep into my brain big time!!! I've been hanging around RCU for oh maybe the last 6 months, and the only time I ever really hashed something out was over a combat photo that was faked IMHO. I didn't venture outside of the combat topic until very recently. Other than that, I've never had a dissagreement here. I even spent some time doing a search and couldn't find what you mean...Pleeeeeze refresh my memory before I go nuts! As for getting along at the field, you betchya...well...up until they call "start combat"...but as for the other stuff you mentioned...not a chance as I'm one of the fruitloops that will go for and try anything. I never should have voiced my opinion on the hover guys...which was not out of hating then or what they do at all, but more from media extream over exposure.

How soon we forget. I should leave you hanging.

I was the Arf-bashing coroplast "slap-together" hater in another thread....

COMBAT ON!

Thanks for the memory refresher Jim!...I can sleep now...as soon as I read "slap together" it all came back...hope to meet you at a combat meet someday! Any chance you're going to the NATS?

the C word is all important, is as knowing your fellow flyers, whos going to be flying for half hour doing touch and go's, whos going to be doing 5 mins of fast passes ( very high danger risk if your standing out there ) (( yes i do it too, tho dun have the nerve to get as close or low ))
in our club the situ is this.... we have some fun flys, some fast jobs, some sport, some combat and some boring sods
the fast jobs normally pick the right time and get a quick 5 mins in while the air is empty. as do the combats ( not full on air to air )
every one else flys together, but as everyone has time and likes to chat, theres never more than 4-6 in the air at once, mostly 1 or 2 or no-one. thats when i go hover... ORRRRR if the people flying are ok with me, like another fun fly the other day, tho what we did was follow each other in loops, that looked cool.
now.... all our pilots stand in a line, so we all know what we are doing, and if i hear LANDING or LOW PASS or just see out the corner of my eye someoe heading my way i use this handy little device called a throttle, and right way my plane is way above and out of peoples way. i've never been in the way for someones landing.
anyone that says its easy, yes, it is now, but hell it took me ages to get it, torque rolls, not yet, but i do those high and right out the way till i get it.
final point, if you know someones going to be flying where you want to be, or they might moan, then wait a few mins. theres some people i wont share air with no matter which plane i fly.
i do wonder if theres a problem that no flyers talk to each other at these clubs, so all they want to do is fly non stop. i get maybe 10 flights in a whole afternoon if im really on it. mostly 3-5

I assume you mean the American Nats?

Sorry, Canuck here, eh. Besides, I'm busy competing in World Scale this year (assuming I make the team, trials are this weekend).

Still, I would like to meet in combat some time, t'would be fun. Combat is alive and well in these parts, weekly inter-club meets every Tuesday with a points series. Nasty coroplast has taken some fun out of mid-airs though, used to be you would see lots of carnage, now you see broken props (except when they hit an honest balsa plane like mine ).

Yeah - when I lived in the UK, the situation was pretty much the same ... coz the club had maybe 40 members, and if 15 turned up to fly on the same day, that was unusual.

Now that I'm in Silicon Valley, flying at a club where we have about 350 members, things are a bit different. If you try to wait for a chance to grab one of the 6 flight stations when there are no racers up, or no 3D'ers, or no jets, or whatever, you can easily wait for several hours (especially on a busy day like Sunday) ... so since avoiding certain types of fliers is harder at such a busy club, it all comes back to courtesy. Unfortunately that's not always in abundant supply, but such is life.

Regs,
Gordon

Yep! Leave next week for Indianna (combat NATS)...good luck in World Scale!

..............

WOW

Ben Franklin said,
the ost uncommon sense, is common sense,
sometimes it has to be legislated.
the issue is not the actual hover but what goes on when the aircraft is in a hover,
ex, no one past the pilot or flight line between the aircraft and pilot,
no touching of anykind with the plane by a person,
and possibly no touching of any flying surface to the ground or any other stationary object by the plane will in the hovering mode.