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Old 06-27-2002, 07:53 PM
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mpj220
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Old 06-27-2002, 07:57 PM
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I doubt it is a restriction on the actual hover . . .more likely a restriction on how close it can be done to spectators (ie at TOC during the "half time"). How could it be enforced anyway?
Old 06-27-2002, 11:05 PM
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Dave Bowles
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Sence we have no Idea exactly what will be presented we shouldn't assume RESTRICTING and BANNING are the same thing. I would suspect they will be discussing hovering over the runways and to close to other pilots being a danger which I don't totally disagree with and have been guilty of. AT most fields I have flown at it has been a rule that manuvers should not be done over the runway anyway at least during an event or fly-in. I don't think it will become that big of a deal anyway.
Old 06-27-2002, 11:07 PM
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Cyclic Hardover
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Sounds a bit stupid, There are far more areas the AMA should be concerned about than hovering a plane. Like maybe a million dollar addition to that new building they have.
Old 06-28-2002, 01:46 AM
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Ed
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Default Not just hovering ................

It's performing 3 D maneuvers over the runway while others are in the pattern. If you have 6 pilot stations, and 5 are trying to fly their expensive aircraft safely, and one discourteous dummy blocks the runway or is flying against the traffic, then it's not only very annoying, but it's a threat.

I can remember a few years back, when I traveled all the way from Tucson to northern Colorado, to participate in a Big Bird Fly-In. At one time during the event there was 3 IMAC types hovering over the center of the runway, while the CD remained oblivious to the impact on the remaining people flying. The 3 who were doing the hovering thought that it was funny and great sport, others did not. I will never try to fly my warbird at Fort Collins Colorado again.

If nothing else, an awareness must be created, and some kind of guidelines must be put in place for CD's to use. Stupidity cannot be allowed to continue.

Jim
Old 06-28-2002, 10:04 AM
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Tattoo
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Why don't these guys just get into helicopters anyways? Plenty of hovering to be done at the heli fly-ins. If your going to build something that resembles an airplane, for gosh sakes...FLY it! I still remember the first magazine photo of a hovering airplane I saw and though it was kind of cool...but after two or three hundred million photos of it...enough is enough.
Old 06-28-2002, 11:23 AM
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Old 06-28-2002, 12:16 PM
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wgeffon
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Here we go again........
Old 06-28-2002, 12:29 PM
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INJUN_EAR
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Originally posted by Tattoo
Why don't these guys just get into helicopters anyways? Plenty of hovering to be done at the heli fly-ins. If your going to build something that resembles an airplane, for gosh sakes...FLY it! I still remember the first magazine photo of a hovering airplane I saw and though it was kind of cool...but after two or three hundred million photos of it...enough is enough.

*********DITTO*********
Old 06-28-2002, 01:29 PM
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stevezero
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I'll agree with you Wayne, here we go again....... I just checked my calendar, and it seems that exactly one month since the last thread of this nature was closed. It's like clockwork.


As long as someone is doing something different than someone else, there is always going to be someone b*tching about it. I think its inherently proportional the amount of "closedmindedness" that comes about from "diversity". Everyone is allowed to do thier own thing as long as its not what I dont want them doing..................

If you feel that method of flying is being done in a dangerous way, then talk to your club officiers about it. Better yet, talk directly to the members that you are having the problem with. It's amazing what showing a little bit of courtesy will get you the same in return. If that doesnt work, then one or both of you (b*tcher and the b*tchee) can go fly elsewhere.

This is no means the first volley in a flame war, I am just trying to state some understandings and solutions to the problem. It's also getting very old reading the same thread posted newly each month, and noone doing anything constructive, just griping about a problem they can work on, but choose not to.
Old 06-28-2002, 01:34 PM
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Jim_McIntyre
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Originally posted by stevezero
As long as someone is doing something different than someone else, there is always going to be someone b*tching about it. I think its inherently proportional the amount of "closedmindedness" that comes about from "diversity". Everyone is allowed to do thier own thing as long as its not what I dont want them doing..................
Exactly.

As for Tatoo's comment re helicopters.
Been to a heli meet lately? It hasn't been about hovering for years...

A word of advice: Gain some experience b4 inserting foot. :stupid:
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Old 06-28-2002, 01:59 PM
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mpj220
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Old 06-28-2002, 02:19 PM
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stevezero
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mpj,
I wasnt insinuating you. I commend ya for lookin soo deeply into the AMA website to find it. The AMA website can be as exciting as watching paint dry from time to time. My comments were directed elsewhere. There have been several threads on this in the last 6 months, and it always ends up with the same players voicing the same opinions. Rather than tolerance, or trying to come up with a solution, this discussion always turns into a "My method (warbirds/parkfliers/sport plane/pattern plane/ scale, etc) is the only way to do it, everything else is just not worth my time/effort/being forced to watch it. Combat has the possibilty of being just as dangerous as 3d maneuvers, if not a greater danger. I admit to letting the last go around get very personal and very nasty, and I am not going to let it get to that point again.

I believe that the item regarding hovering is going to cover being too close to the pit area/spectator area and runway. I hope they also include something about people catching or touching planes in a hovered state, before someone really gets hurt. I am all for being able to touch the tail of a plane to the ground, as long as its done without risking others, and their equipment.

Why must we have to resort to legislating common sense or courtesy on each other? I guess its because we have to..........
Old 06-28-2002, 02:22 PM
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wgeffon
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Mark,

There really is no problem.

Our club officers talked with the AMA a few months back to get some guidelines on 3D/hovering at sanctioned clubs. AMA's response was surprisingly (to me) in favor of this new type of flying.
I doubt the AMA will ban or restrict anything. I see this merely as a discussion point to be able to give clubs some guidelines..
Old 06-28-2002, 02:57 PM
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Paul Grubich
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Default hover

Most flyins I have attended had no problems with this issue. St. Charles and Dayton had times for the hover guys to fly and times for the warbirds and such to fly. The CD's were aware of potential problems and worked around them.

There were a couple that did not handle this issue very well. If that happens just do not go to that event again. Show your intentions by not showing. You can also email or call the CD of an event you will be attending and ask how this issue will be delt with.

It is all up to the CD and how he or she handles it.

As for hovering, I have tried to learn to hover my Morris but my fingers don't believe my mind so I will stick to warbirds
Old 06-28-2002, 03:21 PM
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Geistware
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I guess I have two issues or concerns about this proposed discussion on Monday July 15, 2002. If you define hovering as controlling a fixed wing aircraft in a stalled condition then it will not only eliminate a lot of the thrill in commanding an aircraft but also will be very difficult to enforce.

My second concern is why "MY" regional VP is submitting this action? Over the past year I have been a spectator in several events that were sanctioned by the AMA that included flying in stalled conditions. I have not seen a petition that has covered this issue. If this is a form of representation without the input of the constituents then this VP is one who has shown that he has his own agenda which has nothing to do with the desires of the people he represents!
Old 06-28-2002, 03:22 PM
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Hmm, a plane is hovering over the runway, I have many choices besides leave the event pissed never to return. I can go up & over, go around, go inverted and under the hovering plane giving the crowd a thrill, as there are many ways to avoid a hovering plane. Lets face it there is a lot of airspace to be used that the hovering plane is not using, and if you cant hover you are probably a little jealous of those that can. My $.02
Old 06-28-2002, 03:24 PM
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I think what you might be seeing is another "loophole" that the AMA is trying to create re: insurance. With "restrictions" on some types of manuvers or their locations, IF, IF, something happens, the AMA can claim no libility as the pilot was not adhereing to the "rules".
Old 06-28-2002, 03:28 PM
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Paul Grubich
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Quote: "and if you cant hover you are probably a little jealous of those that can. My $.02"

Taildrager that is inflammatory and not relevant to this discussion. Especially since you are a moderator here
Old 06-28-2002, 04:00 PM
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hoveralot
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Default hovering

Courtesy is the word...

I like hovering/3D my airplanes so when i plan to do that type of flying i talk to other pilots and ask them if they donŽt mind, if they do, then i fly normal paterns, i they donŽt care iŽll do my stuff but in the farther side of the runway in front of me, not over the runway so if something fails, nobody will get hurt.

Courtesy...

Why some people do super fast passes over the runway at 2 metters in front of you?? Courtesy...
Old 06-28-2002, 04:07 PM
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Jim_McIntyre
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Originally posted by Paul Grubich
Quote: "and if you cant hover you are probably a little jealous of those that can. My $.02"

Taildrager that is inflammatory and not relevant to this discussion. Especially since you are a moderator here
Say what?!!!
Seems like a fair statement to me, maybe it touchs a sore spot for you?

Really, why would that be considered inflammatory when rants like;
"Why don't these guys just get into helicopters anyways? Plenty of hovering to be done at the heli fly-ins. If your going to build something that resembles an airplane, ... " aren't?
Old 06-28-2002, 04:16 PM
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stevezero
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Ya know, what I really wanna know about, is the old business item about what are they gonna do with the delta darts. Doesnt the AMA see that those things are aircraft over the runway out of control usually in a stalled condition, with no control whatsoever, that can smack a spectator in the eye, and give them a nasty papercut. They get what, 40-50 kids out there on the runway and fling em all at once. Theres gotta be danger inherent with that, right?

If you have access to your area VP via email, snail mail, or telephone/fax, by all means, tell him/her how you feel. Email Dave Brown and anyone else you feel might be worth the effort, stating your case for or against it. The sqeaky wheels always seem to get the grease (or the palms can get greased too ).

Given the popularity of high performance aircraft, and high-alpha, substall maneuvers done lower to the proximity of the ground, this is not an issue that is going to be resolved quickly. Alot of manufacturers (including Dave Brown) have products that cater directly to these types of flying. Do you think he is going to just step aside and let a portion of his business (not to mention alot of AMA members who enjoy watching/participating in this method of flight) slip away?

(I just found $.02 under my desk at work, so I figured I'd donate that here too)
Old 06-28-2002, 04:22 PM
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Hubb
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Default ....here we go again....

my position remains as it always has.... common sense and courtesy.

at the club level, let the other flyers know what your up to and wait till there's free air space. they should extend the same courtesy to you

at a flyin event, there should be times alloted for 3D demos as well as warbirds. I like to watch both. CD's responsibility to enforce IMO

at a typical IMAC competition, there is usually a "deadline" for the free event. such as no flying closer than the far edge of the runway during your routine. that keeps the plane a safe distance away.

if you are one of those who has disregard for the other pilots in the air and are giving all of us a bad name, shame on you

Hubb
Old 06-28-2002, 04:42 PM
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wgeffon
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Like I said about 20 posts ago......

Here we go again!
Old 06-28-2002, 05:00 PM
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I can see this thread going nowhere positive

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