rminsk

I am the person who started the the "RC aircraft banned in Redondo Beach, CA" and I am afraid we may also loose Dockweiler State Beach. The site is about a 30 foot hill right on the beach with the bike trail right behind it and a parking lot just past that. It is also an officially recognized hang gliding site. We have always gotten along great with the hang glider guys. This site has a very minimal slope but a huge beach to land on if you have any problems. I use this site to test out my all of my new gliders. I see Jerry from Trick R/C (Zagi) there testing new plane designs from time to time.

I was taking hang gliding lessons this Sunday and was very disturbed by what I saw. A person was flying an electric powered foamy plane and buzzing people on the bike path. As soon as I saw this I quickly ran over to the slope and calmly asked him what he was doing. I told them that it was very dangerous and that even a 1 pound object going at 30-40 mph could knock someone over or seriously injure them. Even at a few miles per hour there are sharp pushrod ends and a sharp prop that could cut someone. His attitude was it was made out of foam and plastic and it would not hurt anyone. I replied with a small piece of foam is what damaged the space shuttle wing... and the discussion continued for quite some time.

I went back to my hang gliding lesson and about 10 minutes later he was back buzzing the bike path but this time he hit a cyclist. He was laughing out loud and did not even apologize to the person. As the cyclist approached the hang gliding area I made sure to talk to him. I tried to explain to him that the pilot was irresponsible and a rouge. I also explained to him about the AMA and the rules that the AMA follows and about AMA insurance even though this is not an AMA site. He was still furious and was going to file a complaint with the county.

What can I do in the situation? I was tempted to somehow confiscate the persons plane but I have no authority to do that. I could call the police but that could also cause us to loose the site. I plan to find out what it takes to setup an AMA club at this site but with the bike path so close I do not think it will be possible.

RossiRay

Maybe you could get the county to allow only members of a local AMA recognized club to fly. Fliers would be required to have on their person current AMA and club cards. Anyone not complying could be considered trespassing or violating local ordinance or something similar. With this in place you could call the cops on the offender and have him/her cited. I know that the cities are not looking for more laws or areas to enforce, but at least you the responsible modeler will have some backing when the situation occurs.

EC120

Tough one. Sad we are ruled by the idiots despite our best efforts.

Sport_Pilot

Could this be the guy who hit Bloss on the head? If so maybe if modlers bring his head to Bloss would settle the whole thing.

abel_pranger

State beach - isn't there a ranger? If not, then it seems less likely for you to lose the site by calling the cops on this twit than losing it due to his reckless behavior. Certainly the cops will be more inclined to see your side of it if you report the incident to them rather than having them first hear of it from the pissed off bicyclist.

Abel

higheronnitro

I would have carmly told the cyclist to mash the guys foamy to a pulp. Cyclist would have felt better and so would you..

DanSavage

My Feedback: (5)

I'd follow the example of the HSS guys when faced with the loss of their flying site at Fairview Park.

You can read about their exploits:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...threadid=72832

Dan

Time Pilot

And next time you go, bring your tennis racket!

MikeMc

Too bad 95% of "we" are idiots.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

The direct answer to the question you asked is that it only takes 5 AMA members to charter a club.

Other than voting with Abel, the only other observation is the following that I lifted and modified from another place. This is the meat of the explanation for the actions you need to take.

"By joining AMA and having (local modelers create and join a club you can)provide an insurance certificate to the c(oun)ty, that covers the c(oun)ty even if someone goes out there and violates the safety code and causes an accident.

The person who violates the safety code is without insurance and is on their own.

Having the c(oun)ty covered is what keeps your flying site."

The direct answer to the question you asked is that it only takes 5 AMA members to charter a club.

papermache

My Feedback: (35)

rminsk,

Call park security. This moron is endangering other park users. He obviously won't listen to reason, so maybe he'll listen to muscle. But be sure it's legal muscle - not yours. Anything you do to him or his plane leaves you open to a lawsuit.

I fly in a national park. The guys who regularly fly there are of a like mind when it comes to preserving our ability to use the site. We're careful to avoid other people, and try to cooperate with the hang gliders and parasailers. Some days that means not flying if the place is too crowded. Just in case we get morons like the one you ran into, I also carry my cell phone and I know the number of the ranger station.

Sometimes you have to work to preserve a good flying site. Good luck.

papermache

SoCal GliderGuider

There you go again quoting a two year old thread. Please note that Fairview Park is still open to any and all that want to fly sailplanes and small electrics -- AMA or not.

As to HSS taking over the park? Don't bet on it. This has been tried at least twice before in the last 15 years and each time the city has said; "Nice try. What in the word 'public' don't you understand?" The club does pull a permit for it's major contests as do the cross country runners and a few other community organizations.

As to discourteous flyers and noisy aircraft; use the existing laws. A park ranger has the authority to evict anyone that is endangering the safety of others. Noise ordnances take care of the other.

DanSavage

My Feedback: (5)

You're right. I should have linked to the thread where the discussion centered around the visit to Fairview Park by the Costa Mesa City Councilwoman who was investigating whether to ban R/C models from operating at the park.

See: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...threadid=72832

I'm not sure what you're saying with regards to the HSS taking over the park. Are you saying that the city told the HSS that anyone could fly any size or type of model at the park simply because it's a public park?

The city can ban r/c flying at a park if they wanted to do so, can't they?

After the city council voted, r/c models were allowed to continue flying at the park.

I think you meant to say, 'noise ordinance take care of the other', didn't you?

Most ordnance is already pretty noisy, but it would take care of offensive pilots' models.

Dan

Sport_Pilot

Why is a city making decisions in a state park?

SoCal GliderGuider

Spelling is not one of my faverite subgects. But then you knew exactly what I meant. Want to stay on subject?

The direction that HSS wants to take the PUBLIC park is similar to the direction the Laguna Niguel flyers did with their local Lilly Shapel Park (LSP). This involves a flying test and the deputization of club members so they can turn in their fellow flyers to the city AND the demand to see $1,000,000 of personal liability insurance. An unreasonable sum.

A "flying and safety test" would effectively eliminate half of the 70 or so club members including one or two of the four working on the proposal with the city. Then there is also a limit as to how many sailplanes can be in the air at one time. Even during contests.

It is to be strongly noted that LSP in Laguna Niguel is in a gated community with a 24 hour guard who filters those that enter.

The city of Laguna Niguel has a form for a permit to fly at the LSP site. The city ordinance is only for this park and clearly states that the applicant must show proof of the $1,000,000 liability. It does not state that this be strictly AMA. However the application only lists your AMA number for liability. An oversight by the administration?

The real question is why is all of this is coming about. It's the growing group of electric flyers that used to be gas flyers at Mile Square Park. The electrics are no longer the cutsie park size old timers. .40 and larger size aircraft are being converted to electric and flown here. Fairview Park is not the place for this size prop aircraft. The other is the noisy zaggi like electric wings. These flyers have been asked to fly further north in the park and not 50 yards from the row of townhouses on the south western border.

This is an open boundary park of over 200 acres. There is no gate with a 24 hour guard. There is no on site full time ranger. Since California Prop 51 passed in 1986 the city has no significant liability for any injury or property damage caused by park users. If you fly there you had better be covered. AMA is one way. Personal liability riders on your renters or home owners is another.

Please note that your personal liability insurance will most likely pay for any accident you have. The AMA is secondary. This is where the $1,000,000 minimum that the AMA touts is out of line UNLESS you are flying a .40 size or larger fuel or electric power plane. Since the park is not set up for flying such size aircraft you should not be flying it there.

So as with the topic of this thread and it's related details the problem is an electric plane flown by a brainless dolt. You report (squeal if it's a fellow club member) the dolt to the park ranger/police and he is removed. There are already laws on the books that can and should be used first.

Sport_Pilot

Wow! A very good post!

DanSavage

My Feedback: (5)

Sure. Know what a means?

I personally have no problems with a flying and safety test. The FAA gives them all the time and washes out pilots who can't or won't cut the mustard.

I also have no problems with a single entity such as the HSS or LNF being in charge of a flying facility or following a set of safey rules established by an organization such as the AMA.

But, with no controlling legal authority at Fairview Park, who's to say what is too big or too powerful to fly there?

Sure, you can express an opinion about the matter, but who's going to listen and take action? Again, you can ask the zagi flyers to stay away from the townhouses, but, you can only ask, not enforce.

You don't want the city nor the AMA involved as they cramp your style.

So, what's the solution?

And for the record, it wasn't the brainless electric dolts who lost the Redondo Beach site. It was the brainless glider guider dolts.

submikester

My Feedback: (6)

I live in El Segundo and am an AMA member - I will volunteer to assit chartering a club with you even though I don't fly gliders there (though I might like to attempt it).

Redondo Beach just banned the flying of model aircraft from their boardwalks because of flyers hitting pedestrians and cyclists.

Had I been in the situation you were in at that time I would have encouraged the cyclist to call the police or ranger and get a police report and if possible hold him criminally liable for his actions.

Clearly the guy's an idiot - stupid kills but not nearly enough and not nearly enough of the stupid people.