F106A

My Feedback: (2)

Ken,
Sent you a PM.
Jon

africanmike

Hi everyone.
My computer had to go in for repairs, so I was unable to check in for a few days. I see Ken is now monotoring this thread and keeping you all updated, I think I'll just observe from now on.
Try to stay on the topic, and be nice to each other. (yes that means you, CDignition)

kennyo

JR I share your concern as I am the one that this is all about. I take my hat off to african mike for putting this on the web and I also take my hat off to all of you supporters. Yes I do have a defibrillator with pacemaker capabilities implanted in my chest. What happened to me was caused by my flying into the sun and yelling "heads up" which caused an adrenaline flow that set off my defib. I was shocked four times and the plane crashed on a landing attempt after the second shock.The shock was like grabbing hold of a 220 volt wire. In my mind I actually thought that the transmitter had somehow shorted out. I went down to my knees and dropped the transmitter on the grass. I always keep 2 to 3 clicks of down trim in my planes to keep them from floating on landings. I was about 15 feet off the ground and about 200 feet off the end of the runway when it crashed. The repairs were minor and was back flying a few days later. F106 A has some info that I sent him that now is public knowledge since Carl made his decision. kennyo

kennyo

Fritzthecat I read your comments about discrimination.Two years ago on St. Patricks day we had a club fun fly with many entrants. One of the members had a heart attack. we are 12 miles from the nearest medical facility and no phone. We fly at a landfill and have to depend on cell phones. The area that we are in has dead spots. That happened when my defib went off and it took the ambulance 17 minutes to get there. If I didn't have the defib I'd be pushing up daisys now.I took this individual to the hospital and on the way gave him a couple of nitros to help. It was a wild 15 minute ride and they put him into intensive care immediatly. A month later he was flying and the BOD could have cared less. I on the other hand not very well liked by a couple of the BOD members was their scapegoat. kennyo

J_R

kennyo

This is just my opinion, keep that in mind.

From what we have seen here, and what has been implied, it appears that the BOD of your club has backed themselves into a corner. I think you can take what Don Koranda wrote as the official AMA position. The AMA is not going to settle this for the BOD. Keep in mind that Carl Maroney works for Don, and not for Dave Brown. I believe you can feel assured that this issue was a topic at the last EC meeting, and that DB will support the position presented by Don. That leaves the BOD deeper in the corner. The AMA is not going to tell them what to do. I also feel certain that the BOD is in possession of a communication similar to the one F106A posted here, from the AMA.

As I see it, the BOD made a huge mistake. At the same time, they are now in a position where they can not back down. IF they do, and IF something were to happen to you, THEY are on the hook. (They could have or should have known...) On the other hand, they have created a situation where you are being discriminated against, at least in my opinion. Even if the BOD were to resign, the club is still in the same situation. A new BOD would be confronted with these very same issues. That BOD might be made up of your friends and supporters.

As I see it, and I could be blind, the BOD has only one way out, without your help. They could mandate a qualified spotter for every pilot, and eliminate the discrimination. If you press your position, the club and the BOD are in a terrible position.

The only other “out� I can see is if you were to agree to use a spotter. That would leave all those club members that have supported you without the requirement to have a spotter, themselves. Personally, I don’t think that a spotter for every pilot is a bad idea, but, as evidenced here, many do.

I am not sure I could or would do what I am suggesting. I hate backing down when I am right. On the other hand, if I were on the board, I would not be disinclined to give you a heart felt apology and ask you to do exactly as I have suggested.

Just something to think about. It is a lousy solution to a problem not of your making.

CDignition

My Feedback: (9)

Why are you singling me out with this quote??.. I have been nice on this thread, whats with that??..feel free to PM me..

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

kennyo

Another option used by many others, with great success, would be to simply ignore and plead ignorance to the BOD desires. Maybe have a buddy or your favorite BOD member stand in the box with you at the most opportune times and eventually things will get back to “normal� after awhile. Sort of like adverse possession laws...just take what is yours quietly. The BOD is in CYA mode and very likely may only need a wink and a nod. Since your perspective is greater than anyone else hear or there, only you know the right answer. good luck test

abel_pranger

LCS-
Do you really think anybody in that club would ever fail to notice that he is ignoring the BOD's desires? The notion that he could 'plead ignorance' of the conditions the BOD has placed on is frankly absurd. It's all here in this thread and can't be eradicated - might as well be chiseled in granite.
As for the BOD ignoring their own position with 'a wink and a nod,' I think having rules that are not enforced is the worst possible trap clubs set for themselves (or BODs set for them, as the case may be). At best it is a set-up for discrimination, aka 'selective enforcement.' At worst, if a club member gets into a major liability situation and was violating a safety rule at the time, it will be an issue in determining the settlement, regardless of whether or not the rule violated is cited as an exclusion from insurance coverage. I belong to a club that has about 3 dozen such rules, some having never been enforced AFAIK. I have been a club officer in the past, before this proliferation of rules came about. I won't touch it with a pole now.

Abel

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Unfortunatly, Abel is right on target. Not enforcing known rules or encouraging some to violate those rules is an open invitation to some barracuda, er lawyer. However, in the defense of Littlecrankshaf, we all have to admit that the subject club BOD has been running around with their fly open for some time now. . . .

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Abel

That one sentence speaks volumes. Guess what???? It is up to interpretation in the end.

Hmmm…Reminds me of the fellow that was ticketed for not wearing a helmet (on his head), back when wearing helmets were required by law. The fellow accepted the ticket with a smile since his practice was to strap the helmet to his knee and had done so this time as well. Of course he took the matter before the judge and explained. So the judge asked the officer" did you notice that the driver had the helmet strapped to his knee"? The officer answered "well yes I did". Hmmm...Guess what?...Case dismissed...next.

In this world there are many rules and laws on the books and the laws are stretched by interpretation or ignored completely every day(some just plain outdated but never the less on the books)....nothing new there. You know what? Unless the rule is properly worded even God could be his spotter...the man may be religious

Look... I stop at red lights BUT I may not STAY stopped until the signal turns green... since the law here does not specifically state that I MUST stay stopped until the signal turns green. I have often proceeded through the intersection while the light was red with a black and white as witness and guess what? I have never been pulled over or cited. There are loop holes in just about every law or rule and I suspect the rule in question will be no different.

The letter of the law often betrays the intent. People make fortunes understanding the differences.

When at the field alone who is to say...when there with others just say "watch this"....Done deal.............................

F106A

My Feedback: (2)

Hi everyone,
I've been in contact with Ken and he sent me the following e-mail, which he said is OK to post here on RCU. After reading the doctor's statement, which seems very clear to me, I just can't understand the reasoning behind the BOD's refusal to rescind their actions.
This whole issue is similar to someone who is on disability. When the doctor determines that the person can go back to work he gives the employee a note for his employer stating that. No where in the note is any statement this condition will never happen again, etc. I take the note and put it in the employee's medical file, I DON'T try to interpret or read between the lines or guess what may happen in the future. The company is protected from any liability in the future arising because of the medical condition because we have documentation from a "qualified medical authority", and, as the club has documentation, they too are protected.
There's a club meeting this week and hopefully this issue can be resolved and everyone involved can start enjoying the hobby again.
Brg
Jon

March 18, 2004

Attn: Ken Obeshaw

Officers and Board of Directors of the R/C Fliers of Venice Fl.

In response to the event which occurred last week when you became physically incapacitated and unable to control your plane, we the officers and Board of Directors of the R/C Fliers request that you:

1. Relinquish your instructor's status and cease teaching prospective new pilots to fly. Should you have anyone in training now, turn them over to another instructor.

2. Curtail your personal flying activities to (Assisted Flying), using a buddy box with a competent pilot or have a competent pilot assist you while you

are flying so they may take over control should this problem recur

It is with deep regret that we have to take this stance, however, in lieu of the safety factors involved we have no choice.

Sincerely

Allen Wilder

President, R/C Fliers of Venice, Inc.



South County Heart Center

1225 Jacaranda Blvd. Veniice, Fl. 34292

Patient: Obeshaw, Kenneth
Account # 8694
DOB: 12/13/31
Date: 05/18/04


Mr. Allen Wilder
President- R/C Fliers of Venice, Inc.

To Whom It May Concern:

Kenneth should be medically cleared to continue flying radio-controlled flyers and should be able to continue teaching. Kenneth has an inplantable defibrillator and dilated cardiomyopathy, however, his defibrillator went off inappropriately due to an atrial arrhythmia. His defibrillator was reprogrammed and he should not have any inappropriate shocks. From a cardiovascular standpoint, Kenneth should be stable to continue both teaching and flying radio-controlled flyers.

If there are any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to call.

Sincerely,

L.J.E. D.O.,F.A.C.C.

kennyo

Now that you know what happened to me and have read the letter from the BOD to me and the Letter from my cardiologist. I think it's time you know just what Carl had to say. First the letter from the BOD.



From: MICHAEL KELLY
Sent:Monday, December 13, 2004 3:57 PM
To"[email protected]
Subject: flying status of a person with medical implant.

Attn: Carl Maroney
My name is Mike Kelly I am a director on the board of the R/C Fliers of Venice AMA #328. My AMA # is 657989. We spoke this morning about a club member by the name of Ken Obeshaw AMA # 454684 and I have his permission to talk about his condition. He has a defibrillator device implanted which has on one occaision rendered him inconsious while flying resulting in his plane crashing and a trip to the hospital. No one else was invo;ved. we as a board requested him to cease flying and get a note from his doctor stating his ability to continue flying. We felt the note was inconclusive and requested him to fly on a buddy box or have a competent pilot stand with him. He now wishes to resume flying on his own. We feel it could present liability problems for the club and or it"s officers if we turn him loose. We would like some feedback on this issue. Has the AMA evercome across this before? Any help or light you can put on this subject would be very helpful. He told me he was in touch with you and sent you his doctors reply which you should have on record. Thank you for your help.

Sincerely
Mike Kelly





From: Carl Maroney <[email protected]>
To:<[email protected]>
Cc: Ilona Maine <[email protected]>: "Amy Wilson" [email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 8:02 PM
Subject: Flying status of person flying with medical implant

Thank you for your E-mail expressing concern. This is indeed a difficult situation. However, Since Mr. Obeshaw has had an episode that resulted in a crash, we cannot risk the possibility of a similar event ressulting in serious injury. Once the pilot loses control of the aircraft there is certainly the possibility of that aircraft striking someone in the vicinity. Satety is the key component of AMA membership and flight operations. We just cannot justify taking this risk. While we realize that Mr. Obeshaw is an experienced pilot and loves flying, since we have notice of the possibility of defibrillator failure, it presents an unacceptable risk to persons in or around the field. Your suggestion of either a buddy box or experienced pilot to assume immediate control sounds like a reasonable solution. It will allow Mr. Obeshaw to continue flying at minimum risk to others. I hope Mr. Obeshaw will understand this has to be our positiion.


Carl P. Maroney
Special Services Director
[email protected]
765.287.1256X250
AMA HQ
5161 E. Memorial Dr.
Muncie, In 47302

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

What an insight into the AMA...err...I mean US, since we are the AMA! I am ashamed. What the heck!! I will not support that kinda crap for even a moment. It is clear that it is US and THEM...take your pick!!!!!

GrnBrt

My Feedback: (5)

Inconclusive????? what note are they reading????? It sounded pretty clear to me that his doctor felt he was safe to fly his planes. It's like I said, I also have one of those units inplanted in me and I feel that I am just as safe as anyone else that's flying. My friend has had a heart attack so now he is more likely to have another one, does that make him unsafe???? What about all of you that are walking time bombs???? You know high in all your blood tests and a prime candidate for a heart attack!!!!!! I guess you could put a time or an age limit on it, like 60 years old but whoa just a second, it seems that more people then ever before are having attacks at a younger age, like in your early 40's. I know let's not take any chances at all and we all will have to be monitored just in case we have some kind of episode, jeez louise give me a break!

CDignition

My Feedback: (9)

I agree with Art....

Groucho fan

I think that it's totally unfair to treat him this way, after all, he's not flying an F-18 with the Blue Angels, or starting in the Daytona 500 this weekend!! As long as his doctor said its OK, that should be good enough for anyone.
I had a heart attack 10 months ago at the age of 49, I never thought it would happen to me. I'm back at work, flying model planes, driving my truck, and getting my life back. (My doctors say that it's a miracle I'm still alive.)
I guess what I'm trying to say is, just because something "might" happen, it doesn't necessarily mean that it will.
Kennyo, good luck, and you can fly with me anytime!!!

Ione2fly

Quoted from post #161; his defibrillator went off inappropriately due to an atrial arrhythmia. His defibrillator was reprogrammed and he should not have any inappropriate shocks. From a cardiovascular standpoint, Kenneth should be stable to continue both teaching and flying radio-controlled flyers.

That doesn't sound very inconclusive to me!!

R.F.A.

abel_pranger

Doesn't sound inconclusive to me either.

Oddly, the club president said it it wasn't safety issues, but he didn't say what the real issues are. Also quoting from post #161: "....in lieu of the safety factors involved we have no choice." Don't you wonder what instead of safety concerns the BOD had on their minds? Was he saying "we can't restrict your freedom for safety reasons, but we have no other choice so our decision is arbitrary?"

And the BOD thought the MD's letter was ambiguous!

Abel

CDignition

My Feedback: (9)

I talked with a "Board" member this week (Name Withheld) and theres more to the story, as usual.

It turns out, this man is not that well liked by the "Board". Apparently he is a "Rabblerouser" and talks alot of negative stuff about how the club is run, etc, etc....there was apparently even talk that the "Board" was going to boot him from the club (Before the Defib Incedent) , and the "Board" felt he was "undermining" their progress (by badmothing club management, etc, etc)....Apparently he is like alot of us "Rabblerousers", we like to *****, but dont activeley do anything to change it, lol.

I was told, Matter of Factly, that they will not reverse their decision, unless AMA says he can fly alone with no bystander. This goes against the "AMA not to be involved in local club problems" Mantra you hear about. They are definatley involved in THIS clubs inner workings, although somewhat indirectly.

I think this is the wrong approach. I told him so, and now it really looks as if they are treating the guy this way cause he isnt well liked in club management circles.

So, it looks like if the guy were better liked, he would not have this trouble...I wonder if this happened to Nick Ziroli (Nick is a member of the Sarasota Club), that the same action would have taken place..Ill bet not, as he is well liked and respected for obvious reasons.

and thats the rest of the story...

F106A

My Feedback: (2)

Hi everyone,
Ken called Don Koranda on Tuesday and there was a club meeting on Wednesday or Thursday when this issue was going to be resolved. I e-mailed Ken for any updates but haven't heard back from him.
Ken is a retired USAF pilot and flew in Korea and Viet Nam and, by his own admission, a PITA for the BOD. I really didn't want to get into personalities as I was more concerned with the big picture, but this whole thing seque ways into the other thread regarding safety officers: people in power imposing their personal agenda on other modelers.
BRG,
Jon

J_R

Hi Jon

First, let me say that the follwing thoughts do not apply to this particular club, because I have no idea how it is set up.

I think it's time to make the point that all clubs are not the same. Some clubs have a BOD consisting of the owner of the land and his hand picked officers. Not all clubs are democratic in nature, nor are they required to be. In some clubs, club members have virtually no rights. In others, the members run the club and it is truly democratic. This is as it should be.

IMO, the AMA has no business, at least on a medical basis, determining who may not fly, or for that matter, who may fly. They also have no right to determine if a SO will be a reasonable person, or a field Nazi. Let the clubs make the decisions. If the clubs, and those that run them, make decisions badly, they must live with the consequences.

Hossfly

By 'Gar Ol' JR, you are showing some promise!

Well stated and especially that last paragraph. IMO you get an A+++ for that one.

abel_pranger

CDI-

In Jon's (F106A) post #123 he quotes an Email from D Koranda that includes "The direct answer to your question is that AMA has no specific policy
with respect to medical incapacitation, nor does our insurance policy contain any language that would prohibit the operation of a model
aircraft with a known medical condition."

If that wasn't enough "AMA says" for the club BOD to reverse their position, they need to take the English as a Second Language course again, or go back to Cuba.

Abel

CDignition

My Feedback: (9)

I agree Abel...

kennyo

Groucho Fan Thanks a lot for your support and all the rest of you that support the issue. You all read the first letter from my doctor, now in order for me to fly by myself I have to get another one that simply says: To Whom It May Concern: Ken Obeshaw is fit to fly Radio Controled Model Aircraft. Kennyo