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11-02-2002, 01:16 AM
#26
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Ed
How many non-flying, non-related spectators do you imagine see the NATS in Muncie as opposed to those that saw the traveling NATS? How many kids and parents got hooked on modeling in the old format vs. new format?
I don't think there is any hard information, but, I do know from attending a traveling NATS years ago, that there were a lot of non-modeling spectators present.
Just a thought
JR
How many non-flying, non-related spectators do you imagine see the NATS in Muncie as opposed to those that saw the traveling NATS? How many kids and parents got hooked on modeling in the old format vs. new format?
I don't think there is any hard information, but, I do know from attending a traveling NATS years ago, that there were a lot of non-modeling spectators present.
Just a thought
JR
11-02-2002, 01:42 AM
#27
Competitive Event Spectatorship...
Hi JR:
I believe you already know of my promotion for regional events which would be qualifiers to attend and participate in the AMA NATs. In this manner, the grass roots aspects you reference will see seed sown.
From an event witnessing aspect, yes, the traveling NATs did an excellent job of selling events to the overall membership. Both of us know there are no fewer than 5 locations within AMA's 11 district geographic boundary capable of conducting qualifiers with local and SIG staffing. This would provide the quasi-local exposure the traveling NATs provided.
I started this concept about five years ago. Its been a slow roll of the donkey cart...but the cart is moving. This is our third year for the NASA Scale Road Show. We've enjoyed great success with the initial portion of this mentoring program designed to eventually be conducted at a "regional level".
SIGs are the answer my friend... Gotta communicate among those who compete and get them to begin a mentoring program like the NSRS for the other competition venues.
If I had three more SIGs wanting to do regionals as qualifiers for the NATs...we'd be on a roll... All it takes is thinking out side of the box of historical perspective to get back to the grass roots :^).
I believe you already know of my promotion for regional events which would be qualifiers to attend and participate in the AMA NATs. In this manner, the grass roots aspects you reference will see seed sown.
From an event witnessing aspect, yes, the traveling NATs did an excellent job of selling events to the overall membership. Both of us know there are no fewer than 5 locations within AMA's 11 district geographic boundary capable of conducting qualifiers with local and SIG staffing. This would provide the quasi-local exposure the traveling NATs provided.
I started this concept about five years ago. Its been a slow roll of the donkey cart...but the cart is moving. This is our third year for the NASA Scale Road Show. We've enjoyed great success with the initial portion of this mentoring program designed to eventually be conducted at a "regional level".
SIGs are the answer my friend... Gotta communicate among those who compete and get them to begin a mentoring program like the NSRS for the other competition venues.
If I had three more SIGs wanting to do regionals as qualifiers for the NATs...we'd be on a roll... All it takes is thinking out side of the box of historical perspective to get back to the grass roots :^).
11-02-2002, 02:44 AM
#28
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Ed Clayman wrote:
I do, indeed, Ed. If you can get several SIG's together and stage qualifications, then it becomes an entirely different story. That kind of thinking may well grow the AMA. It serves two very useful functions. As a showcase for modeling to the uninitiated and as a qualification for the NATS. I could get behind that kind of an effort, even if it means spending AMA money to subsidize it. I can see a return on the investment in terms of new members.
JR
I believe you already know of my promotion for regional events which would be qualifiers to attend and participate in the AMA NATs. In this manner, the grass roots aspects you reference will see seed sown.
JR
11-02-2002, 05:22 PM
#29
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I went to this years IMAC NATs and other than the temperature, it was real nice. I did note that most of the Judges seamed to be from the NC area but I could be wrong. As far as cheating, I think that people in the NC and SE know each other well enough that if it happened, they would say something. I have seen pilots call for their competitors and help then get scores that placed them in front. I don't think that it is a big issue in this specific SIG in the regions I mentioned.
11-02-2002, 10:29 PM
#30
AMA National Flying Site and HQ
I thought there were a lot of non member spectators when I flew in the nats. I flew gliders, wanted to race and do pattern but didn't have the time. I did see some of them and thought they were well attended, but I haven't seen Muncie so I can't say how they are in comparison. It seems to me though, that if you have it in one place every year, the same people in that part of the country see it. You have a very tiny chance of someone from california going to see it or any other part of the country other than right in indiana that will go to it no matter how you advertise it. I would think you could get the public to it no matter where it is with the right advertising.
When I said cheating and backstabbing, I meant wives running around trying to get people blackballed for what ever reason ( and there was a lot of that). Saw one incident that a glider was circling over the judges tent. The guy on the PA warned him to get out of there or get a zero, and another plane flew by it but not over it. He zero'd the plane that flew by in a straight line with no warning, but gave the guy who was circling over the tent 2 more warnings and let him score his flight. Personally, I would have zero'd them both, but the one circling was his friend. Didn't seem fair to the other guy.
One other example was I broke a line on launch, and the CD was right behind me. He told me to land and re-launch on a different winch. I did that and he had at least 4 people protest the re-launch. Seems to me that was the cds call to make.
Guess that is what happens at bigger contests. I fly them for fun. No money in it so I am just as happy to hang the trophy on the wall. Why get all excited and make it miserable for everyone. Strange. Anyway, thought I would explain what I meant by what I said earlier.
When I said cheating and backstabbing, I meant wives running around trying to get people blackballed for what ever reason ( and there was a lot of that). Saw one incident that a glider was circling over the judges tent. The guy on the PA warned him to get out of there or get a zero, and another plane flew by it but not over it. He zero'd the plane that flew by in a straight line with no warning, but gave the guy who was circling over the tent 2 more warnings and let him score his flight. Personally, I would have zero'd them both, but the one circling was his friend. Didn't seem fair to the other guy.
One other example was I broke a line on launch, and the CD was right behind me. He told me to land and re-launch on a different winch. I did that and he had at least 4 people protest the re-launch. Seems to me that was the cds call to make.
Guess that is what happens at bigger contests. I fly them for fun. No money in it so I am just as happy to hang the trophy on the wall. Why get all excited and make it miserable for everyone. Strange. Anyway, thought I would explain what I meant by what I said earlier.
11-03-2002, 09:01 PM
#31
Behavior at the NATs
Like the icon at the top shows...consult the rules when in doubt. If you find something in error, that's why that white sheet of paper is included with your entry packet.
The examples you reference appear to point to the inconsistancy created in the traveling NATs prior to SIGs managing and conducting the AMA NATs. I've not heard of behavior like described above. Interesting no one at the event filed a protest or as much as a complaint about the over flight. You sneeze hard and the over flight issue is thrown at you at the RC Scale NATs.
We are currently observing the passing of yet another rule book proposal cycle. Did anyone reading this submit a proposal?
The examples you reference appear to point to the inconsistancy created in the traveling NATs prior to SIGs managing and conducting the AMA NATs. I've not heard of behavior like described above. Interesting no one at the event filed a protest or as much as a complaint about the over flight. You sneeze hard and the over flight issue is thrown at you at the RC Scale NATs.
We are currently observing the passing of yet another rule book proposal cycle. Did anyone reading this submit a proposal?
11-03-2002, 09:11 PM
#32
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I just don't understand why someone who will pay 1000.00 for an engine that should only cost a couple hundred or so or 10.00 for a fuel fitting that has 10 cents worth of material in it continually loses sleep over 58.00 for AMA dues. I'm not trying to run anyone down, I just don't understand.
11-03-2002, 10:21 PM
#33
AMA National Flying Site and HQ
Its not the $58 that you pay for dues, it what they do with it that ticks a lot of people off. They buy trade shows that they don't need to own, build very expensive flying sites that very few get to used (compared to the number of members there are) and stuff like that. When a lot of us got into AMA many many years ago, they were in the business of model airplane insurance. Since then, they have wandered into many different areas of business. I think many of us would rather keep them in the insurance business and forget the "national flying site" and owning of trade shows. Most of us don't mind giving them support. They have just gotten big enough that they have their own centered goals and then they raise dues to pay for it in the name of Higher insurance when that is not the case.
11-03-2002, 10:57 PM
#34
Dues increase was not prec'd by insurance cost
Re-read the cost of operations statement in MA and see the cost of services, salaries, insurance and in general inflation. What's 58 dollars got to do with most of the complaints floating around?
Nothing...
The non-rule book modeler feels slighted. Its that simple.
The rule book modeler doesn't feel slighted. Its that simple.
What would the non-rule book modeler like that they don't enjoy today?
1.
2.
3.
4.
Meanwhile: What was the original premise of the AMA?
Answer: Manage rule book events, mentor, keep scores.
The large % of NRB modelers today accounts for the discontent. If RB modelers desire to continue enjoying their RB events, changes need to be made to provide for the expense of the RB modelers.
What is the annual expense of providing for the RB Modeler?
Does the RB Modeler cover the cost of each NATs?
Does the RB Modeler cover the expense of the Comp Dept?
Who can provide factual answers to these questions?
Would answers to these questions put to rest the NRB modeler who feels they are slighted by the RB modeler portion of AMA?
If the RB Modelers were to pay higher membership fees would the NRB modeler then feel better?
What value is FAI participation to the NRB modeler? What % of the NRB modeler knows what the FAI is and what part AMA plays in the US participation in FAI?
Should FAI team members pay to cover "all" expenses related to FAI? Does NAA contribute to AMA's cost of sending an FAI team to the World Championships to represent the USA in each venue?
What FAI classes has the USA been successful in over the entire period of the USA's participation in the World Championships? Is it important to the NRB that the USA send teams to the World Championship and be competitive? If we are not successful in venues, why aren't we trying to develop our representation in those events? Or is this another Army of One...?
Why does AMA have two or three rules for RB events? Why not use the FAI rules and be done with it? Who makes decisions that determine this? This is like playing golf from women's tee when the world hits the longest ball...
What do you think? Get right down there where the shoe hits the pavement on the "X Pad" in Muncie. You can't complain unless you are willing to participate in a resolution of some sort.
What do you think?
Nothing...
The non-rule book modeler feels slighted. Its that simple.
The rule book modeler doesn't feel slighted. Its that simple.
What would the non-rule book modeler like that they don't enjoy today?
1.
2.
3.
4.
Meanwhile: What was the original premise of the AMA?
Answer: Manage rule book events, mentor, keep scores.
The large % of NRB modelers today accounts for the discontent. If RB modelers desire to continue enjoying their RB events, changes need to be made to provide for the expense of the RB modelers.
What is the annual expense of providing for the RB Modeler?
Does the RB Modeler cover the cost of each NATs?
Does the RB Modeler cover the expense of the Comp Dept?
Who can provide factual answers to these questions?
Would answers to these questions put to rest the NRB modeler who feels they are slighted by the RB modeler portion of AMA?
If the RB Modelers were to pay higher membership fees would the NRB modeler then feel better?
What value is FAI participation to the NRB modeler? What % of the NRB modeler knows what the FAI is and what part AMA plays in the US participation in FAI?
Should FAI team members pay to cover "all" expenses related to FAI? Does NAA contribute to AMA's cost of sending an FAI team to the World Championships to represent the USA in each venue?
What FAI classes has the USA been successful in over the entire period of the USA's participation in the World Championships? Is it important to the NRB that the USA send teams to the World Championship and be competitive? If we are not successful in venues, why aren't we trying to develop our representation in those events? Or is this another Army of One...?
Why does AMA have two or three rules for RB events? Why not use the FAI rules and be done with it? Who makes decisions that determine this? This is like playing golf from women's tee when the world hits the longest ball...
What do you think? Get right down there where the shoe hits the pavement on the "X Pad" in Muncie. You can't complain unless you are willing to participate in a resolution of some sort.
What do you think?
11-03-2002, 11:03 PM
#35
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Well, I too have been a member since 1975 and I think anything that they can do to promote the hobby and the manufactors and get us public exposure does nothing but help in the clout dept when they are in Washington fighting to keep those Freq. we all adore so much but seem to take for granted. I know some of the money is probably wasted and the magazine leaves a lot to be desired but waste happens in 100% of any organization or company that has a large amount of currency flowing through it. I see it everyday and I'm sure all you do also. I probably spend in the neighborhood of 2000 to 2500 a yr on my hobby and I know this is a very small amount compared to a lot of you and I don't have time to worry that 10 bucks of my dues are not being spent so that they will directly help me in some way. Just my 3 cents worth. I'll leave ya'll alone now.
11-04-2002, 12:56 AM
#37
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Ed
Man, you sure do drop a bomb when you get into it. LOL
I can only supply SOME facts and offer some opinions. I am not sure that the answers to some of your $$ questions exist.
I don't think the cost questions you ask are directly answerable. Here is what is available. In the year ended 12/31/2001 the hard cost of an AMA membership was $36. The dues was $48. The accounting used for the NATS showed that they made a very small profit. As you know, ED, the accounting system does not take into account any rent.
One of the visions set forth in the by-laws is to foster competition. I believe that is still a worthwhile goal. Just how much to spend is another issue.
I think the misconception among the NRB's is a major problem in any discussion of this type. You use what ever number you like, I use 90% of the membership belong to the AMA for one reason: insurance. In my experience, the huge majority of those believe that some large percentage of their dues goes to insurance and Model Aviation. To them, the administration of the organization and the cost of anything else is transparent. In the year 2001 the numbers run about $7 for insurance and $7.50 for MA (based on 140,000 adult members). If you inform the 'average member' of those numbers they look amazed.
Your analogy of not using FAI rules hit the target. Those that think the watered down AMA rules are the pinnacle on which to be judged have not been exposed the the higher standards of the FAI.
The expenses of the FAI teams has long been a hot topic. Some way has to be found, outside of AMA funding, to more fully support them. The rules would also have to be changed to reflect them. In the case of your event, scale, that presents even larger (pun intended) problems.
It's my opinion that the FAI championships must be looked at as the Olympics are. It's good for the competitors and good for the country. How competitive we are is a matter of pride, not one of national importance. In some venue's we consistently do quite well, in others ... well, we participate.
This is just my opinion, but, I think that most NRB's would not mind if $2-3 dollars of their dues goes to competition. It is when they start to feel that they are subsidizing 'empire building' that they come unglued. By the same token, I think that if you take away the women's tees from the AMA national competitor's and install FAI rules, a lot of them will come unglued. Each segment has it's own agenda.
Being an expert at bumper pool does not translate to being an expert at 9 ball. Conversely, the great 9 ball player is going to be a pretty good bumper pool player.
Now throw in the specter of dues increases, due to increasing insurance, and a dropping membership, because of a dues increase, and you have a real mess.
JR
Man, you sure do drop a bomb when you get into it. LOL
I can only supply SOME facts and offer some opinions. I am not sure that the answers to some of your $$ questions exist.
I don't think the cost questions you ask are directly answerable. Here is what is available. In the year ended 12/31/2001 the hard cost of an AMA membership was $36. The dues was $48. The accounting used for the NATS showed that they made a very small profit. As you know, ED, the accounting system does not take into account any rent.
One of the visions set forth in the by-laws is to foster competition. I believe that is still a worthwhile goal. Just how much to spend is another issue.
I think the misconception among the NRB's is a major problem in any discussion of this type. You use what ever number you like, I use 90% of the membership belong to the AMA for one reason: insurance. In my experience, the huge majority of those believe that some large percentage of their dues goes to insurance and Model Aviation. To them, the administration of the organization and the cost of anything else is transparent. In the year 2001 the numbers run about $7 for insurance and $7.50 for MA (based on 140,000 adult members). If you inform the 'average member' of those numbers they look amazed.
Your analogy of not using FAI rules hit the target. Those that think the watered down AMA rules are the pinnacle on which to be judged have not been exposed the the higher standards of the FAI.
The expenses of the FAI teams has long been a hot topic. Some way has to be found, outside of AMA funding, to more fully support them. The rules would also have to be changed to reflect them. In the case of your event, scale, that presents even larger (pun intended) problems.
It's my opinion that the FAI championships must be looked at as the Olympics are. It's good for the competitors and good for the country. How competitive we are is a matter of pride, not one of national importance. In some venue's we consistently do quite well, in others ... well, we participate.
This is just my opinion, but, I think that most NRB's would not mind if $2-3 dollars of their dues goes to competition. It is when they start to feel that they are subsidizing 'empire building' that they come unglued. By the same token, I think that if you take away the women's tees from the AMA national competitor's and install FAI rules, a lot of them will come unglued. Each segment has it's own agenda.
Being an expert at bumper pool does not translate to being an expert at 9 ball. Conversely, the great 9 ball player is going to be a pretty good bumper pool player.
Now throw in the specter of dues increases, due to increasing insurance, and a dropping membership, because of a dues increase, and you have a real mess.
JR
11-04-2002, 02:25 AM
#38
NRB and RB AMA Membership Issues
Obviously my list of questions was mostly in jest because to really discuss the NRB and RB issues with respect to cost of ops you have a clearer view looking from the RB side of things and the NRB is left for the most part without a clue except a budget report or list of expenses for things not understood.
I've been recruiting NRB's for RB events for a long time and have had an easier go of it in the past. As the economy worsens, I observe abrupt declines in RB...newbees. There are those who've been around the barn and making a pass back by...but newbee's seem to have disappeared due to money, lack of time, and quality family time shrinkage due to greater demands at work.
What concerns me most is...NRB's perceive RB's to be in control of the NRB's and that's not actually the case. The We vs. They just doesn't gain anyone anything except stonewalling. It sets us all back much further than I believe anyone realizes.
The EC and those individuals who comprise it seem to be trying to avoid the NRB and the RB issue by only speaking in plurality terms of "we" or "The AMA". When district issues are referenced from out here...the response from "within" has been something to the tune of "Well you voted for...now live with it". This bothers me when I hear that repeated...in the NRB environment. However I can clearly imagine it being said...in private and not intended for broadcast.
A minor element of the NRB drives a level of discontent with any and every RB function regardless of the rewards be they FAI or simply getting more kids involved in an RB venue. Unless the NRB issue is factored into "our" EC's daily bread...this can only get much worse in my opinion. Then again, no one asked either of us did they... ;^)
I've been recruiting NRB's for RB events for a long time and have had an easier go of it in the past. As the economy worsens, I observe abrupt declines in RB...newbees. There are those who've been around the barn and making a pass back by...but newbee's seem to have disappeared due to money, lack of time, and quality family time shrinkage due to greater demands at work.
What concerns me most is...NRB's perceive RB's to be in control of the NRB's and that's not actually the case. The We vs. They just doesn't gain anyone anything except stonewalling. It sets us all back much further than I believe anyone realizes.
The EC and those individuals who comprise it seem to be trying to avoid the NRB and the RB issue by only speaking in plurality terms of "we" or "The AMA". When district issues are referenced from out here...the response from "within" has been something to the tune of "Well you voted for...now live with it". This bothers me when I hear that repeated...in the NRB environment. However I can clearly imagine it being said...in private and not intended for broadcast.
A minor element of the NRB drives a level of discontent with any and every RB function regardless of the rewards be they FAI or simply getting more kids involved in an RB venue. Unless the NRB issue is factored into "our" EC's daily bread...this can only get much worse in my opinion. Then again, no one asked either of us did they... ;^)
11-04-2002, 03:09 AM
#39
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Then again, no one asked either of us did they... ;^)
I think one thing that bugs the NRB's that get a little understanding of the AMA are the SIG's. The impression is that the SIG's control the EC. In fact the SIG's are more like lobbyists. The EC is pretty decent at trying to keep the NRB's in mind in everything they do. The NRB's are the great 'unrepresented' masses in our little world.
Everyone has to keep in mind that the guys on the EC are volunteer's, not recieving any pay. They are there making the best effort they know how. No one ever seems happy and always wants more from them.
Hey, Ed, wanna run for VP in D VIII? LOL
Sure, I do not agree with everything they do, but, overall, I truly believe that they do the best they can for all of us.
JR
11-04-2002, 03:36 AM
#40
NRB/RB conflicts and misconceptions
Its all about gaining a voice through participation. I don't have any real complaints, primariy because I do tend to lean to the RB side of the AMA. The NRB does eventually find something on the RB side that appeals to them. The RB side needs to do its best to welcome them when they do.
My concern deals with competitive representation while we slug our way through the ancient AMA Scale R/C and C/L rules. How to develop the best if we are handicaped participating in a less than equal or challenging event.
My concern deals with competitive representation while we slug our way through the ancient AMA Scale R/C and C/L rules. How to develop the best if we are handicaped participating in a less than equal or challenging event.
11-04-2002, 06:25 PM
#41
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Ed
Why don't you lay out some of the problems that your alluding to as well as the major differences in AMA and FAI rules. I think scale probably points out the differences as well as any venue.
JR
Why don't you lay out some of the problems that your alluding to as well as the major differences in AMA and FAI rules. I think scale probably points out the differences as well as any venue.
JR
