Hmmm...at a recent club meeting we were told, by an AMA AVP, that AMA had never denied a claim! Heck... all the wash women at the meeting was elated to hear such. Are you trying to bust their bubbles?

Perhaps we should get a copy of our AMA insurance policy and review our coverage. If homeowners and health insurance is primary to the AMA insurance, then finding another carrier for secondary insurance to cover flyers and landowners should not be THAT challenging.

Noting the response from premiermarine it appears they only insure in a handful of States and are a Surplus Lines group and apparently an Agency that insures their stuff through London.
Since London is not interested in any premium less than $1,500.00 per person it is unlikely that they would be competitive. However, that being said, one must recognize that they probably are on our reinsurance currently through our present insurance carrier. But reinsurance is totally different than direct insurance.
I spent many years working with London and Lloyds and I really don't think we want to get involved in an insurance program that generally takes a year to get claims paid. They are extremely slow. By having a domestic company insure us, they pay the claim now and wait to get paid by London, or, deduct the claim from what they owe London.
The program we have now makes a lot more sense.

3dbob

[/quote]

http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/500-l.pdf

Maybe they won't deny a claim but in a situation that I assumed the victim would be taken care of he was not. Two AMA pilots flying, one gets hit by the others plane. The owner of the plane has homeowners insurance, the victim is currently unemployed without health insurance. The homeowners company says it's an assumed risk to be out on the flight line so their client is not at fault. AMA only covers 20 thousand for personal injury so the guy is out of pocket for the balance of his 100 thousand plus in medical not to mention disability.

They didn't deny the claim but the coverage is very limited. Don't assume that because everyone at your field has AMA that you are fully covered.

Hmmm...who would have thunk it! Golly-bum It seems that the 2.5 mil termonology crapola just sounds good...maybe to good!

Rules, Rules and more roolze. I guess I better spend the day studying the rules...er...I mean the year...Never can be sure of anything!
Darn, Darn, Darn!

Hey LCS-

The $2.5 mil applies to the liability coverage, in excess of any other policy that covers the same risk. The HO policy payout did not reach its limits (seems they didn't pay anything), so the AMA excess liability coverage never came into play. BTW, the 'assumed risk' defense by the HO provider is virtually guaranteed to be encountered if you are a participant in the activity another was engaged in when he injured you, and it is successful much more often than not. And yes, that defense has been employed by AMA; it was discussed fairly recently in this forum. AMA's first obligation under the liability policy, like every other insurance provider, is to provide a legal defense for their client that has been charged with liability, not to compensate the plaintiff. If you are counting on the other guy's liability insurance to provide for your welfare if you are seriously injured/disabled by his actions, you really owe it to yourself to become familiar with this legal concept - it will be sobering.

Abel

Thanks,

That will make some enjoyable reading on a cold winters night. Looks like I'll need the assistance of an attorney, a bartender, and a priest to decode that mess!
http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/500-l.pdf




[/quote]

As an afterthought, It occured to me that it might be worthwhile to address where some misconceptions about AMA provided insurance may arise from. Some basic facts as I understand them to be:

AMA does not pay all claims

AMA does pay all legitimate claims, to the best of my knowledge

I believe that if the statement about AMA paying all claims were traced back to an authoritative source, i.e., Carl Maroney, the modifier 'legitimate' would certainly be included.

"Legitimate" in this context is far from trivial. It must be taken in the literal sense, in essence that a determination has been made within the Civil Court system that the claim has merit. Anyone that has had even the slightest brush with the tort enterprise in this country knows what that entails - the onus of proving that the Respondent is liable for injury to the Claimant is on the Claimant.

BTW, I think the statement "AMA pays all legitimate claims," while true, is rather trivial. As applies to everybody else, when the court says you pay, they have the wherewithal to compel you to pay.

I would really like to see a brief recess in the primary focus of AMA on protecting the AMA coffers, in order to provide a worthwhile service to the members. It might take the form of an article in MA authored by Carl Maroney or his counterpart that represents the insurance company, that candidly explains what members are buying in AMA insurance, and what not. The need for it is clear.

Abel

Able

Thanks

As usual, very well said! Unfortunately, 2.5 mil is the only thing most people ever seem to hear. When I had discussed such issues within THE club it was apparent that no one cared to hear the truth. Putting their heads in the sand and continuing the WHO can come up with the "best rule of the month contest" was the order of the day. My contention was to design the field and construct devices to facilitate safety but alas rule making seemed to be easer and more desirable. So now the club has three pages of rules and very little that would physically prevent an harmful incident.

Two things here everyone should note. One is that we are talking about Liability Insurance which means you must be liable. I don't know who the folks are or who the Homeowners carrier is but they are not simply going to pay a huge claim without defending the guilt or innocence of their client, who happens to be a flyer. They start out by defending their client and that's what we pay them for. This is not Medical Insurance where things are paid automatically, this is legal liability. The Homeowners carrier is obligated to defend their client.
It would be rather dumb for someone to run right out and say, "hey guys, I'm guilty of negligence." The AMA insurance and the Homeowners Insurance is legal liability.
The injured party must first prove you were negligent. You wouldn't be very smart if you had an automobile accident and confessed to everyone that you were at fault, would you?
The second thing that should be noted is that most Homeowners Insurance Companies will sell you an Umbrella Policy. This gives you liability coverage over and above what you have with your Homeowners basic limits. Everyone who owns a home should have coverage far and above the basic limits, especially RC flyers, in the form of an Umbrella.

3dbob

Yeah, lilcrankshaf- We know what you mean about useless rules. The rules in some clubs are so oppresive that they discourage folks from flying and don't add anything to safety.
Let's face it, an accident is an accident and by its nature cannot be legislated.
Religion. Bureaucrats and politicians all love to sit around making rules just for the joy of controlling other people. What a waste of time.

3dbob

I belive there are many RC people out there like me. I don't care about records, regions, most of the stuff in the AMA magazine. I don't have any interest in supporting their headquarters, etc. All I care about is access to a close-by flying field. The reason I joined AMA was for the insurance requirement. With the AMA membership, I can fly at the local field. That's the only reason I belong.

What I would like is an insurance policy to allow me to show up at a field and be allowed to use it without first becomming an AMA member. I'm happy to pay the local dues, or whaterver is needed.

By the way, I currently belong to the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, and for many years belonged to the Society of Automotive Engineers. I always thought that both groups tried to maximize their memberships to be in a good posoition to sell advertizing, insurance, etc. While touring the AOPA headquarters several years ago, we were shown a room with six or seven customer service experts working the phones around the clock. They proudly talked about the services peovided to members. Nearby was a room they didn't show us. It was a giant bullpen with maybe 60-100 telemarketing people working the membership side. Not hard to see where thay put their greatest efforts. I think the AMA is probably the same.

Hey TXN-

I understand the challenge presented by such an undertaking. Insurance policies are written in legalese, and that represents more of an effort to decipher than simple translation to plain ol' English. As a job security measure, ambulance chasers not only have their own peculiar lexicon, they have their own system of rationalization. If you, like me, live in a world of logical thought, you are forced to leave your familiar MO behind and enter a foreign world based on causal reason to really grasp what the heck is being said. Good luck.

Abel

Hopkimf, I sort of feel sorry for you. You are missing a lot in life. Aviation is a wonderful world to be involved in and if you don't study aviation, don't read about it and only joined the AMA for the insurance, you are missing a lot to be sure.
The rest of us aren't so cynical. We all love aviation whether models or full scale and we enjoy talking about and studying airplane stuff.
Aviation is a wonderful study and that's what AMA is all about.

3dbob

3dbob37n....Don't feel too sorry for me. I have had a life-long love of aviation. Currently I read Private Pilot, Plane & Pilot, Flying, FAA Aviation News, several ad-free full scale flying newsletters, and Model Airplane News along with tech articles in AMA magazine, etc. I don't think I'm missing out on too much. What I should have phrased better was I don't care much about regions, records, etc. The regions are so big I don't know who the people are.

So I think we're on the same page as far as the aviation side goes. I just have a hard time with the organizations that represent us. In another thread here, people are commenting about the departure of a new guy at AMA headquarters that was supposed to bring new life to the organization. That's the thing I'm talking about, not the technology or aviation per se.

id like to see them work with the ama to suply ins. only for aircraft not covered by the ama to allow us to fly aircraft in excess of 100 lbs at ama sponsered events this should include jets .a 100lb wart hog would be cool. the english have way more rules than us we are the USA all we nead is ins, vern

Well Hopkimf, you did say that insurance was the only reason you joined AMA but you probably meant what you said later.
As far as I am concerned, AMA is just part of the aeronautical world that we all enjoy so much. I dropped out of AOPA because I lost my medical a few years ago due to a heart problem but I miss it a lot. But, AOPA kept reminding me of what I miss so much and that is flying full scale.
At my age, I guess I'll have to content myself with high alpha RC flying which is still a mystery to me. Like bumblebee flight, it is impossible but we do it anyway.
I really don't think the loss of Don Koranda has any real significance to AMA, people come and go all the time and no one is irreplacable. It may take a while but there is always someone waiting in the wings to take the reins.
Enjoy

3dbob