For AMA??
11-14-2002 | 05:11 PM
#51
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Chandler,
TX
For AMA??
Hello, JR;
Even though we butt heads often, I appreciate your calm and reasoned approach to this topic.
Yes, there are actually two incidents that are involved here.
One he experienced himself, and he asked some straight-forward questions asking for simple answers. I answered his questions as simply and accurately as I could: words to the effect that if I were a contestant in his place, I would have done about the same as he described: go to the CD and voice my concern, perhaps leave the contest (depending on the severity), etc.
However, Jim chose to bring the thread involving the Bear flight over from the Usenet news group, and most of his accusations and ... stem from there. I DO believe he has the two mixed up in his own mind, I certainly do not.
However, in NONE of the discussion, based on EITHER incident have I ever espoused the position that Jim has tried to paint me with.
As to the issue of suspending a contest to allow a FIRST flight test is, as I think I have made adequately clear, NOT something I would condone. And while some might argue that this could be done (I would not argue that way), it is a clear violation of the Safety Code, both letter and spirit.
As to Sandy's actions regarding the Torrey Pines issue: I have not researched the timeline, but my recollection is that he simply passed on what had been e-mailed to all AMA members by AMA HQs. My recollection (it may be wrong and I'll research this) is that he did that essentially coincident with the e-mail, not a long time later. However, as you know, many folks will not see a Usenet posting for many days after it is made, and if the posting has timely information in it, the readers may react far too late. Again, I will look at the time line of this and post it for all to see.
As to his intentions: I cannot say what they are since I have not asked him that question. If I may be presumptuous, I will say that it was simply to get the word out to a larger audience than the e-mail reached, or perhaps into an audience that seems willing to act more than the average Joe Flightpack. However, that is just my presumption, knowing the man as I do.
As to my relationship with Sandy: he is the VP of District VIII. I am an AVP, the D-8 webmaster, the CL/FF Contest Coordinator, a CD a Leader Member,... and a good friend of Sandy's. Consequently, he talks to me a lot. Certainly not about everything, but many things. I have no problem with folks asking me if I know anything, but when the question smacks of "conspiracy" and is asked in a public forum such as this, I tend to react with scorn since it appears to be a bashing instead of an actual search for information. So be it. Anybody want to contact me privately, I can be reached through this forum, not to mention my e-mail address is posted in about a jillion other places on the 'net.
I will gladly be Sandy's "Representative" as far as I can, but you have to let me be the judge of where "as far as" takes us.
Regards,
Bill Lee
Even though we butt heads often, I appreciate your calm and reasoned approach to this topic.
Yes, there are actually two incidents that are involved here.
One he experienced himself, and he asked some straight-forward questions asking for simple answers. I answered his questions as simply and accurately as I could: words to the effect that if I were a contestant in his place, I would have done about the same as he described: go to the CD and voice my concern, perhaps leave the contest (depending on the severity), etc.
However, Jim chose to bring the thread involving the Bear flight over from the Usenet news group, and most of his accusations and ... stem from there. I DO believe he has the two mixed up in his own mind, I certainly do not.
However, in NONE of the discussion, based on EITHER incident have I ever espoused the position that Jim has tried to paint me with.
As to the issue of suspending a contest to allow a FIRST flight test is, as I think I have made adequately clear, NOT something I would condone. And while some might argue that this could be done (I would not argue that way), it is a clear violation of the Safety Code, both letter and spirit.
As to Sandy's actions regarding the Torrey Pines issue: I have not researched the timeline, but my recollection is that he simply passed on what had been e-mailed to all AMA members by AMA HQs. My recollection (it may be wrong and I'll research this) is that he did that essentially coincident with the e-mail, not a long time later. However, as you know, many folks will not see a Usenet posting for many days after it is made, and if the posting has timely information in it, the readers may react far too late. Again, I will look at the time line of this and post it for all to see.
As to his intentions: I cannot say what they are since I have not asked him that question. If I may be presumptuous, I will say that it was simply to get the word out to a larger audience than the e-mail reached, or perhaps into an audience that seems willing to act more than the average Joe Flightpack. However, that is just my presumption, knowing the man as I do.
As to my relationship with Sandy: he is the VP of District VIII. I am an AVP, the D-8 webmaster, the CL/FF Contest Coordinator, a CD a Leader Member,... and a good friend of Sandy's. Consequently, he talks to me a lot. Certainly not about everything, but many things. I have no problem with folks asking me if I know anything, but when the question smacks of "conspiracy" and is asked in a public forum such as this, I tend to react with scorn since it appears to be a bashing instead of an actual search for information. So be it. Anybody want to contact me privately, I can be reached through this forum, not to mention my e-mail address is posted in about a jillion other places on the 'net.
I will gladly be Sandy's "Representative" as far as I can, but you have to let me be the judge of where "as far as" takes us.
Regards,
Bill Lee
Originally posted by J_R
Bill
In reading the previous posts, I was under the impression that what Jim posted was not about the 'bear' incident at all. I was under the impression that it was something that happened to Jim in a real life contest he was involved in. If he was, indeed, talking about the 'bear' incident, I could see where you would take a different approach to the question. I hope Jim will clear this up. Maybe we all look for conspiracies when there are none.
I saw the issue as involving two parts. First, does the CD have the right to suspend a contest and resume it later. I think one could make a case for that based on the reasoning that it is done often, for instance, to facilitate a passing storm. I think that to do so for the first flight of a new plane is a stretch of that authority and reflects on the quality of the CD.
The second part, that of allowing the first flight of a new plane with the contestants present, is an entirely separate issue. That appears to me to be a violation of the Safety Code. That would, in my opinion, subject the CD to possible sanctions rather than just having poor judgment in suspending the contest.
As to your conspiracy argument, I must admit to subscribing to that as well. I view you as a Representative of Sandy Frank and I often engage you in debate on forums because of that. I will no longer do that.
I have a question about Sandy Frank's intention's when he openly encouraged modelers, world wide, to write to the City of San Diego, and to 'sign' the petition, after the City had already sided with the Torrey Pines Gulls. I could see no useful reason for him to do this. I will now, however, post it as an open question to him in another thread.
JR
Bill
In reading the previous posts, I was under the impression that what Jim posted was not about the 'bear' incident at all. I was under the impression that it was something that happened to Jim in a real life contest he was involved in. If he was, indeed, talking about the 'bear' incident, I could see where you would take a different approach to the question. I hope Jim will clear this up. Maybe we all look for conspiracies when there are none.
I saw the issue as involving two parts. First, does the CD have the right to suspend a contest and resume it later. I think one could make a case for that based on the reasoning that it is done often, for instance, to facilitate a passing storm. I think that to do so for the first flight of a new plane is a stretch of that authority and reflects on the quality of the CD.
The second part, that of allowing the first flight of a new plane with the contestants present, is an entirely separate issue. That appears to me to be a violation of the Safety Code. That would, in my opinion, subject the CD to possible sanctions rather than just having poor judgment in suspending the contest.
As to your conspiracy argument, I must admit to subscribing to that as well. I view you as a Representative of Sandy Frank and I often engage you in debate on forums because of that. I will no longer do that.
I have a question about Sandy Frank's intention's when he openly encouraged modelers, world wide, to write to the City of San Diego, and to 'sign' the petition, after the City had already sided with the Torrey Pines Gulls. I could see no useful reason for him to do this. I will now, however, post it as an open question to him in another thread.
JR
11-14-2002 | 05:24 PM
#52
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Chandler,
TX
For AMA??
Originally posted by raistlin12
From reading, and re-reading, all the vitriol, etc., in this thread, I thought the same thing. If, in fact, that is the case, and IF, the CD suspended the contest for a "demo" first-flight of a new model (somewhat redundant, I know, but I wanted to be clear), then that is clearly a violation of the safety code, and not Bill Lee, Sandy Frank, or Dave Brown would have the authority to "leaglly" violate it, let alone a CD.
From reading, and re-reading, all the vitriol, etc., in this thread, I thought the same thing. If, in fact, that is the case, and IF, the CD suspended the contest for a "demo" first-flight of a new model (somewhat redundant, I know, but I wanted to be clear), then that is clearly a violation of the safety code, and not Bill Lee, Sandy Frank, or Dave Brown would have the authority to "leaglly" violate it, let alone a CD.
[quoye]BTW, since the By-laws state the the CD is the AMA agent at AMA sanctioned events, the ORIGINAL question is answered as FOR the AMA. Chris can jump in on this, but anyone who has legal agent status, and that is what the by-laws imply, is acting on behalf of the person/organization for whom he is the agent, and that person/organization will be held legally liable for any act commited by the agent, while acting as the agent. This is why it is essential that a CD not violate the safety code. Any incident which occurred as a result of his negligence could be held agains the AMA, as an organization, and not simply the CD and/or local club.[/quote]
Right on! And why every one of us must be diligent in the application of safe practices and consequently the adherence to the AMA Safety Code.
Bill, Jim, bury the hatchet (and not in each other).
Regards,
Bill Lee
11-14-2002 | 06:24 PM
#53
My Feedback: (3)
For AMA??
JR wrote:
In reading the previous posts, I was under the impression that what Jim posted was not about the 'bear' incident at all. I was under the impression that it was something that happened to Jim in a real life contest he was involved in. If he was, indeed, talking about the 'bear' incident, I could see where you would take a different approach to the question. I hope Jim will clear this up. Maybe we all look for conspiracies when there are none.
****************
DUH! Thanks JR, it never occurred to me that Bill had confused these two separate incidents. Sorry to all for not thinking that was possible earlier.
**************************
Bill Lee (AMA AVP) wrote:
As to my relationship with Sandy: he is the VP of District VIII. I am an AVP, the D-8 webmaster, the CL/FF Contest Coordinator, a CD a Leader Member,... and a good friend of Sandy's. Consequently, he talks to me a lot. Certainly not about everything, but many things. I have no problem with folks asking me if I know anything, but when the question smacks of "conspiracy" and is asked in a public forum such as this, I tend to react with scorn since it appears to be a bashing instead of an actual search for information. So be it. Anybody want to contact me privately, I can be reached through this forum, not to mention my e-mail address is posted in about a jillion other places on the 'net.
*************************************
Bill,
Three things. First, congratulations for a well earned reward.
Secondly, I know of no problems or reasons Sandy shouldn't take actions that appear to being put in place (your appointment to AVP status surely would support that action) for the future. So why all the smoke? Why all the personal attacks? Why not a simple yes or no answer? Or how about a "Not to my knowledge"? Your refusal to directly address that question and your insistence that I am a liar bothers me as it indicates something I did not previously suspect of you.
The third item is a bit more difficult. Please S*T*O*P trying to use Sandy's methods of dealing with subjects and people you dislike. It has been pointed out to he that he does not have a license to practice pshrink business over the Internet. Since you don't have his education in the field, you really shouldn't try to emulate that bad approach to AMA members. It does not help the AMA, District VIII, or your credibility.
Bill, let me say it a little more clearly. STOP stirring up conspiracy theories because they only exist in your mind.
Jeesh
Jim Branaum
AMA LM 1428
In reading the previous posts, I was under the impression that what Jim posted was not about the 'bear' incident at all. I was under the impression that it was something that happened to Jim in a real life contest he was involved in. If he was, indeed, talking about the 'bear' incident, I could see where you would take a different approach to the question. I hope Jim will clear this up. Maybe we all look for conspiracies when there are none.
****************
DUH! Thanks JR, it never occurred to me that Bill had confused these two separate incidents. Sorry to all for not thinking that was possible earlier.
**************************
Bill Lee (AMA AVP) wrote:
As to my relationship with Sandy: he is the VP of District VIII. I am an AVP, the D-8 webmaster, the CL/FF Contest Coordinator, a CD a Leader Member,... and a good friend of Sandy's. Consequently, he talks to me a lot. Certainly not about everything, but many things. I have no problem with folks asking me if I know anything, but when the question smacks of "conspiracy" and is asked in a public forum such as this, I tend to react with scorn since it appears to be a bashing instead of an actual search for information. So be it. Anybody want to contact me privately, I can be reached through this forum, not to mention my e-mail address is posted in about a jillion other places on the 'net.
*************************************
Bill,
Three things. First, congratulations for a well earned reward.
Secondly, I know of no problems or reasons Sandy shouldn't take actions that appear to being put in place (your appointment to AVP status surely would support that action) for the future. So why all the smoke? Why all the personal attacks? Why not a simple yes or no answer? Or how about a "Not to my knowledge"? Your refusal to directly address that question and your insistence that I am a liar bothers me as it indicates something I did not previously suspect of you.
The third item is a bit more difficult. Please S*T*O*P trying to use Sandy's methods of dealing with subjects and people you dislike. It has been pointed out to he that he does not have a license to practice pshrink business over the Internet. Since you don't have his education in the field, you really shouldn't try to emulate that bad approach to AMA members. It does not help the AMA, District VIII, or your credibility.
Bill, let me say it a little more clearly. STOP stirring up conspiracy theories because they only exist in your mind.
Jeesh
Jim Branaum
AMA LM 1428
11-14-2002 | 07:11 PM
#55
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Chandler,
TX
For AMA??
Hello, Jim;
Again, your old stand-by: take something totally out of context so that you can trash somebody with it.
From my message which you quote below, you left out the important part in my reply to JR, Jim. Since I am not sure you will be able to find it on your own, here it is:
"However, Jim chose to bring the thread involving the Bear flight over
from the Usenet news group, and most of his accusations and ... stem
from there. I DO believe he has the two mixed up in his own mind, I
certainly do not."
Your standard style, Jim: take out of context, trash somebody with a half-truth or misrepresentation. As you have done here.
Thank you, Jim, although I would not consider it a reward as much as an acknowledgement of what I do for District VIII specifically, and AMA in general.
Again, Jim, reading 101:
"For the record, the ONLY campaign I am aware of that is ANY sort of
reality is Dr. Sandy Frank's desire to run again for District VIII VP. "
Is that clear enough, Jim?
I do not deal in fantasy, Jim, but facts. This is a factual answer I do not respond to your made-up conspiracy theories.
And what WOULD "Sandy's methods" be, Jim? I am sure that the folks on this forum would like to hear you pontificate on them. If you mean ignoring the bashers and malcontents, so be it. If you mean fostering the best communication with the membership that has ever existed in AMA, then so be it. If you mean representing his constituency (all 17,000 members of D-8, not just the few vocal ones), then so be it. But if it is something else, Jim, please let us all in on it!
As to my education: you have no idea what it is, nor is it of any importance. After all, you are the one doing the questioning of someone else's health. Here is a quote from one of your posts to illustrate: "That single subject is what concerns me about your health." Is YOUR education up to making this kind of judgment, Jim? I suspect not, but maybe you could elucidate your qualifications.
ROFL!! It is incredible that you who spouts them should be concerned when somebody calls you on them, Jim! Remind me who it was that spewed the "Sandy Frank for AMA president" tripe, as an example.
No, Jim, I have nothing to stop except to expose you and those like you. And I have no intention of stopping that.
Bill Lee
Again, your old stand-by: take something totally out of context so that you can trash somebody with it.
Originally posted by Jim Branaum
JR wrote:
In reading the previous posts, I was under the impression that what Jim posted was not about the 'bear' incident at all. I was under the impression that it was something that happened to Jim in a real life contest he was involved in. If he was, indeed, talking about the 'bear' incident, I could see where you would take a different approach to the question. I hope Jim will clear this up. Maybe we all look for conspiracies when there are none.
****************
DUH! Thanks JR, it never occurred to me that Bill had confused these two separate incidents. Sorry to all for not thinking that was possible earlier.
**************************
JR wrote:
In reading the previous posts, I was under the impression that what Jim posted was not about the 'bear' incident at all. I was under the impression that it was something that happened to Jim in a real life contest he was involved in. If he was, indeed, talking about the 'bear' incident, I could see where you would take a different approach to the question. I hope Jim will clear this up. Maybe we all look for conspiracies when there are none.
****************
DUH! Thanks JR, it never occurred to me that Bill had confused these two separate incidents. Sorry to all for not thinking that was possible earlier.
**************************
From my message which you quote below, you left out the important part in my reply to JR, Jim. Since I am not sure you will be able to find it on your own, here it is:
"However, Jim chose to bring the thread involving the Bear flight over
from the Usenet news group, and most of his accusations and ... stem
from there. I DO believe he has the two mixed up in his own mind, I
certainly do not."
Your standard style, Jim: take out of context, trash somebody with a half-truth or misrepresentation. As you have done here.
Bill Lee (AMA AVP) wrote:
As to my relationship with Sandy: he is the VP of District VIII. I am an AVP, the D-8 webmaster, the CL/FF Contest Coordinator, a CD a Leader Member,... and a good friend of Sandy's. Consequently, he talks to me a lot. Certainly not about everything, but many things. I have no problem with folks asking me if I know anything, but when the question smacks of "conspiracy" and is asked in a public forum such as this, I tend to react with scorn since it appears to be a bashing instead of an actual search for information. So be it. Anybody want to contact me privately, I can be reached through this forum, not to mention my e-mail address is posted in about a jillion other places on the 'net.
*************************************
Bill,
Three things. First, congratulations for a well earned reward.
As to my relationship with Sandy: he is the VP of District VIII. I am an AVP, the D-8 webmaster, the CL/FF Contest Coordinator, a CD a Leader Member,... and a good friend of Sandy's. Consequently, he talks to me a lot. Certainly not about everything, but many things. I have no problem with folks asking me if I know anything, but when the question smacks of "conspiracy" and is asked in a public forum such as this, I tend to react with scorn since it appears to be a bashing instead of an actual search for information. So be it. Anybody want to contact me privately, I can be reached through this forum, not to mention my e-mail address is posted in about a jillion other places on the 'net.
*************************************
Bill,
Three things. First, congratulations for a well earned reward.
Secondly, I know of no problems or reasons Sandy shouldn't take actions that appear to being put in place (your appointment to AVP status surely would support that action) for the future. So why all the smoke? Why all the personal attacks? Why not a simple yes or no answer? Or how about a "Not to my knowledge"? Your refusal to directly address that question and your insistence that I am a liar bothers me as it indicates something I did not previously suspect of you.
"For the record, the ONLY campaign I am aware of that is ANY sort of
reality is Dr. Sandy Frank's desire to run again for District VIII VP. "
Is that clear enough, Jim?
I do not deal in fantasy, Jim, but facts. This is a factual answer I do not respond to your made-up conspiracy theories.
The third item is a bit more difficult. Please S*T*O*P trying to use Sandy's methods of dealing with subjects and people you dislike. It has been pointed out to he that he does not have a license to practice pshrink business over the Internet. Since you don't have his education in the field, you really shouldn't try to emulate that bad approach to AMA members. It does not help the AMA, District VIII, or your credibility.
As to my education: you have no idea what it is, nor is it of any importance. After all, you are the one doing the questioning of someone else's health. Here is a quote from one of your posts to illustrate: "That single subject is what concerns me about your health." Is YOUR education up to making this kind of judgment, Jim? I suspect not, but maybe you could elucidate your qualifications.
Bill, let me say it a little more clearly. STOP stirring up conspiracy theories because they only exist in your mind.
Jeesh
Jim Branaum
AMA LM 1428
Jeesh
Jim Branaum
AMA LM 1428
No, Jim, I have nothing to stop except to expose you and those like you. And I have no intention of stopping that.
Bill Lee
11-14-2002 | 09:10 PM
#58
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Chandler,
TX
Re: Rumor ?
Originally posted by Bill Vargas
Bill Lee, Not to throw everything off track here,,, I heard a rumor,,, That you were moving out west (District X) in the near future?
BV
Bill Lee, Not to throw everything off track here,,, I heard a rumor,,, That you were moving out west (District X) in the near future?
BV
Somebody make me an offer I can't refuse! :-)
Bill
11-14-2002 | 11:49 PM
#61
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Chandler,
TX
Re: Re: Re: Rumor ?
Originally posted by Bill Vargas
BL, was there a conspiracy of silence that we are not suppose to know about?
BV
BL, was there a conspiracy of silence that we are not suppose to know about?
BV
Oh, woe is me! How can I ever raise my ire against the conspiracy theorists again!
I'm exposed! Oh, woe is me!
Bill
11-15-2002 | 12:08 AM
#62
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Rumor ?
Originally posted by Bill Lee
Oh, YES! And now you've gone and made it public!
Oh, woe is me! How can I ever raise my ire against the conspiracy theorists again!
I'm exposed! Oh, woe is me!
Bill
Oh, YES! And now you've gone and made it public!
Oh, woe is me! How can I ever raise my ire against the conspiracy theorists again!
I'm exposed! Oh, woe is me!
Bill
But on the other hand, The flying weather is much better out here
BV
11-15-2002 | 12:55 AM
#63
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Chandler,
TX
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rumor ?
Originally posted by Bill Vargas
BL, for some reason, I still sence the anger here?
But on the other hand, The flying weather is much better out here
BV
BL, for some reason, I still sence the anger here?
But on the other hand, The flying weather is much better out here
BV
You know, shakey country and all that?
Besides, it's Granola country! :-)
Bill
