Where did I say that kids are "getting to much aviation in their lives"?
Those are your words; not mine!
My only point was that there are so many other things vying for their interest, time, and money, that trying to interest them in model aviation on anything other than a short term basis, is a very tough sell.
I don't think that there is any simple solution to this dilemma.
Times change, and so do people's interests; including kids.

Nonsense.

You do indeed have the right to demand answers : it is a membership organization and the members do in fact "own" it. Absent members, AMA would not exist, period.

Having said that, the folks "inside AMA", e.g. the paid employees and the volunteer officers are people just like you and me. Acting like a horse's backside won't get you to the top of the list to be served any more than it would anywhere else.

Making an ordinary, reasonable, straightforward request for information will always net you a correct answer (not necessarily the answer you wanted). It may take a day or so, because like everyone else in the world who has a desk, the staffers and volunteers are more often than not literally swamped.

If you want answers, start with your local District Associate Vice President - that's why they hold the appointment. If you don't get a response in a reasonably timely fashion (like a few days, because most AVPs are among the 9-to-5 crowd) then escalate to the District Vice President. If _that_ doesn't work, keep going up the 'ladder'. You can also query the appropriate staffer in Muncie, for administrative matters.

Never had a Muncie staffer fail to respond, and only ever got one answer which wasn't precisely correct (the staffer involved had been 'retrained' by Jim McNeill to give incorrect answers on that particular subject).

Your premise is all wrong : members do indeed have the right to ask questions. Members also have absolute control over who represents them in Muncie.

Alas, far too few members ever seem to exercise that control. Too many ballots go in the dustbin every Fall.

Nonsense.

AAA is not a 501(c)3 organization, never has been, never will be. AAA doesn't send me a ballot every year so I can vote on who's in charge at the top. AAA is a >for-profit< _company_, and the "membship" schtick is quite similar to State Farm Mutual, except for a few minor details on who among the membership is liable if the company goes belly-up (read up on mutuals some time). AAA doesn't have to tell you anything, that much is certain.

AMA on the other hand is _required_ by The Fed to provide very detailed information, not the least of which is the financial report seen in Model Aviation, which itself is required by the 501(c)3 status.

AAA and AMA are not alike in any form or fashion, and your assertions to the contrary are simply wrong-headed.

It is nice to see the whole of the message is being received anyway. As far as the P-51, it will far surpass the people that know and love it. I have an Extra and it doesn't do much more than this old timer, baby.

You can do that if you want, but I much prefer having a say in how AMA goes about it's business, and I do so via several avenues not the least of which is the ballot.

And yes, "they" did "contact anyone" before that purchase. Or put another way, the folks who voted that particular Executive Council into office are the folks who set the stage for the Muncie purchase.

AMA isn't a democracy any more than the U.S. of A. is a democracy. AMA, if characterized the same way governments are characterized, would be most accurately described as a "republic". A republic works by having the voters elect representatives who in turn make the laws and other decisions, like taxes, etc.

AMA works just like the USA works : members elect one District Vice President per District, and those DVPs make all the decisions.

In a true democracy, of which decidedly few if any exist, every voter has a direct say in how things are done. IIRC the last real democracy died somewhere about the time Plato died (or something along those lines).

So, yes, "AMA" did "contact anyone" by virtue of the members having previously elected their representatives.

And yes, AMA did actually contact a bunch of folks, and convened at least one committee to research and advise the EC on moving from Reston, before the Muncie purchase.

If you were around in those days, and you don't like the fact that AMA bought the farm in Muncie, you have only yourself to blame because you either voted for the wrong representative or you didn't vote at all (and that's not a left-handed accusation of any sort).

At this point in time the Muncie purchase is history, and if nothing else the subsequent AMA leaders have actually managed to groom a first class flying facility and (finally) a museum worth having. It's well past time to 'get over' the Muncie purchase and get on with improving the other areas of AMA that could use some improvement, like the web site, the way the teams are selected and funded, and so on.

But you probably knew all that . . .

Actually . . . 200 grand won't buy much of a flying site anywhere in Georgia, and I'm betting it wouldn't buy much of a flying site anywhere within driving range of Mobile, either.

Atlanta RC came close to losing their site, and the only reason the site still operates is that the landowner deeded the land to Dekalb County for parks and recreation use and took the tax write-off. Otherwise, the site was up for sale for a cool 2 mil. Think AMA could spend that kind of money for a North Georgia regional flying site and get away with it ?

I mean, people are STILL ranting about the Muncie purchase, and that was a pretty inexpensive acquisition at the time.

Any land North of the gnat line here in Georgia goes for something like 40k per acre, so your 200 grand would likely get AMA a regional flying site of between 5 and maybe 10 acres.

That's not a lot of room for a regional flying site.

The plain truth is that AMA (WE) simply don't spend the kind of money on membership dues which would afford AMA (US) to buy regional flying sites. We ain't got the bucks and we likely never will.

It gets much worse in the Northeastern US, where for example open land is simply not available - they're not making that stuff anymore, y'know.

Personally, I'd love to have a regional flying site somewhere within say, 6 hours driving time. I'd go there every other weekend and I'd spend the weekend ridding myself of model fuel. I also don't think it will ever happen because as a tiny little niche hobby, our shekel pile is not very high at all.

They know all about it, your more right than you know we had a total of 3 agent's up and flying a couple of year's ago, when paranoia was at it's peak.
Our main instructor had them up and flying in no time. This was an aid to them in realizing that we are just a bunch of crazy hellion's but were loyal patriotic hellion's and some of us actually served our country in war and peace time.
AMA PR from all of us help's all of us keep flying. We shouldn't argue among ourselves's we should respect and defend each other whether we agree with each other or not.
To me, The P-51 will never be a worn out plane, it will alway's shine but that is just me and probably Chuck(There are old pilot's and there are bold pilot's but there are no old bold pilot's) Yeager.
Let's stand together or we might just fall apart.

Sincerely,
Joe Bartholomew

Yep, 200 grand would buy a darn nice site down here around mobile!!!! I bet if you looked in a more rural part of georgia 200 grand would purchase a pretty nice site there as well. As far as the north east, 200 grand would almost buy you all of west virginia There would be a few trouble spots but over all it would be way more than enough to purchase some very, very nice flying sites to promote the hobby with!!!! Once again, that's if the museum was 10 million but if I understand right it was actually 19 million which brings up the amount to over 300 grand per state..... What a loss for the majority flying community but a big gain for the few []

Joe. You may believe that stand together stuff.

All 20-30-40 and a lot of 50 year olds are living their lives the same way companies treat them.
If I can get your job eliminated or replace you with anybody cheaper ANYWHERE in the world , I will do it in a heartbeat.

This is not the 1950's

People take threats constantly about their jobs. Then take it out on everything else around them.

Web forums are a place to unload some job insecurity.

If we had boom times in the USA right now. Very little negative about the AMA would be posted.

Stress makes for *****en about everything.

This forum is a great safety valve for a lot of people.

If we stood together, wouldn't we be having Tea at 4 and sending some of our paycheck to London?
If you don't like the group your in, leave. That's what a feller named Washington did, along with his Posse: Jefferson, Adams, & BigBen. Come to think of it, they were Outlaws too- the similarities abound.

Sure the AMA is just handing over cash to get fields- didn't you guys read the thread about the new Hornets club in the SF Bay area? They were happy to announce the ama home base would send them a check to get that land if needed.

$200k would buy a whole lot of land east of Barstow... they call it the Mojave Desert.... You can claim its a flying trip, a flying trip to a place an hour or 2 from LasVegas "No honey, I didn't turn off my phone & go to a casino- I was flying where there's no cell service.... all night". It rains in Georgia. It rains in Virginia. It rains in the Carolinas. Barstow/Vegas? Not so much with the rain, being a desert.

Buzzer. AAA is a federation of affiliated automobile clubs. Each AAA club is an independent, not-for-profit organization, chartered and incorporated in its own state and controlled by its own board of directors.

The AMA and AAA are very much alike. Also, we as the members do not OWN the AMA. The AMA is a membership organization, just like AAA. The only reason that there are DVP's and VP's and an elected President by the AMA members is because the Board of Directors have decided to make it that way. They do this, like you say, for the better good of the AMA but still at the end of the day the member DO NOT own the AMA. You have the right to ask questions, but you don't have the right to demand them, a huge difference. You're membership card is not a stock certificate, so don't think of it like it is.

Now don't get them the wrong way, the AMA wants you to think you are a big part of the AMA, well because you are. Just don't think that it makes you get what you want when you want it. If you want to create your own AMA, go for it! Heck if it gets any worst then it is, maybe I'll consider creating a bigger and better one, anyone want to join me? Heck how hard could it be anyway?

I'm not playing at anything, certainly not playing fast and loose with definitions whipped up to suit my own ends the way you are.

"Public" and "private" with respect to stock ownership, or with respect to being traded or not traded on NYSE, have no bearing whatsoever on AMA. The terms are singularly inappropriate when applied to AMA. Your choosing to so mis-label AMA is wrong-headed, but is in keeping with your other wrong-headed assertions about AMA.

You indicated that AMA is just like AAA, and that is incorrect. The two entities have nothing in common at all from an organizational or functional standpoint, and certainly not in terms of who has ultimate control of the organization.

You keep trying to intimate that AMA is just like a private company, and that characterization is wrong-headed.

You insisted above that AMA's "board of directors" can do whatever they want with AMA, that the "board of directors" can set AMA up any way they want. That assertion is wrong.

You wrote previously that AMA members have no say in how the organization does business. That assertion is wrong.

Not only do those two wrongs not make a right, they also demonstrate quite clearly that :

1) you don't understand the purpose of a ballot, and

2) you don't understand the AMA organizational role specifically reserved for Leader Members of the AMA.

Dang, Fred-

I thought you were doing pretty fair up 'till this one.

How many decades has it been since Leader Members acted in their "reserved AMA organizational role?" If that is your argument for how AMA is run by the members, it's a stretch that gets you 'creative rhetoric' points only.

OTOH, STLPilot is setting a record for getting exposure of his business gratis, courtesy of RCU and his sig line. I think he's ahead on points, but then he's playing a different game than you are.

Abel

Buzzer, yourself. Autoclub South, which issued the AAA Plus membership card in front of me, is neither chartered nor incorporated in Georgia, Tennessee, or Puerto Rico. It is incorportated in Florida and has it's business offices in Florida, although the territory covers multiple states and one territory. It is NOT a 501(c)3 non-profit organization.
Worse, you can't even find out who actually runs AAA or any of the affiliate auto clubs, you have no input regarding who gets that job, and you have no way of trying to replace them.

Ok, I give up. I can't find the information on the AMA web site or in the AMA Member's Manual on how one gets to be a member of this AMA "Board Of Directors" to which you keep referring. Would you be so kind as to furnish that information ? Unless of course you are actually referring to the Executive Council, which is of course comprised of the various District VPs, who are in turn directly elected by the District members. Is _that_ the 'board of directors' to which you refer ? If so, you overestimate their authority considerably, particularly with regard to changing AMA's own operational rules.

And, much as I don't care for the analogy, my AMA membership card actually does equate to a "stock certificate". The analogy works because that AMA membership card entitles me to receive a >ballot<, just like my _stock certificates_ entitle me to vote in stockholder's meetings, except of course that I usually assign that task to a proxy I trust and because the number of stock certificates I hold governs how many "votes" I can exercise in those stockholder's meetings.

AMA is not a membership organization "just like AAA" because AMA leaders are chosen by the members, whereas AAA "leaders" are NOT chosen by the people who have AAA "membership" cards.

AMA insurance is not an option to it's members. AMA cannot legally sell insurance as a sideline the way AAA does.

AMA does not own an insurance subsidiary. AAA owns AAA Insurance Company. And that subsidiary most certainly is not a non-profit entity.

I'm beginning to think that not only do you not know how AMA works, you don't know very much about your favorite comparision example AAA, either.

If nothing else, get this part down pat : AMA uses elections to select it's leaders, AAA does not.

Nothing else matters with respect to comparison between the two entities because they are not at all the same sort of organization.

Now, I'm all done trying to straighten you out on how AMA works becuase you either don't want to learn or are simply being obtuse for it's own sake. Either way, have a good day and Bye, Now.

The same number of decades that have elapsed since the EC tried to change the By-Laws and/or Constitution. McNeill's favorite end-around, the Standing Rules, are way past due for a close hard look, too.

Sorry, I don't have a score card and I don't do aerobat . . . no, wait . . .

No games being played on my end. No wool being pulled over eyes, either, but then I'm not hawking a for-profit private company at the expense of AMA, am I ?

BTW - found a PUP. 2 mil, $254. Dunno if that's a deal or not, but toy airplane flying is covered so I'm inclined to see if there's any smoke left in one of these VISA cards . . .

You won't see it on their website because it's in their articles of corporation. Have you ever seen what articles of corporation look like? The law states that a non for profit corporation MUST have 1-3 board of directors. In most states the law is minimum of 3. The board of directors can be named to a person(s) in trust which give no guidance other then to only act upon the "bylaws" of the corporation and/or their board of directors could be Dave Brown and 1 or 2 other persons and whomever these people are have full LEGAL right to make any decision they want about the company for any reason whatsoever, within the law, with or without the "demands" of it's members.

In fact their is a provision for submitting an action request (complaint or safety isssue) to the EC under Article 11 Section 6, but its BY FAR a "demand" you may submit. It gets put on the bottom of the pile unless of course the matter is urgent. Otherwise it goes through a lot of red tape until they decide whether or whether not your EC action request deserves an answer.

I don't mean to smear the AMA with misguided facts, I'm just trying to shed some light on some of you guys who think you own the company and you're voice is "demanded". You're voice will be heard, but "demanding" to be heard, try again. Personally and after reading nearly 100% of their PDF's is an AMAZING company that has done an AMAZING acts of goodness for all of us. It would be very hard for anyone to come in and put together what they have already laid out. I am in agreement with many people that the AMA could use some fresh blood and a lot of cleaning up, but then again what company couldn't use that. It's just that young, fresh minds don't come cheap in a world where the economy is good and jobs are endless.

Sorry but it does not. In fact that is illegal for an NFP to be setup as being publically held. You're AMA card is proof of insurance and member benefit services, get over it.

You know it's funny because I used the analogy of AAA because I used to be a consultant for them. In fact where the heck are you doing your fact finding? What are you qualifications for your statements?

Here is a list of benefits for being a AAA member: http://ww2.aaa.com/AAA_Travel/site_map.htm
Here is a list of benefits for being a AMA member: http://www.modelaircraft.org/overview.asp

Nothing at all alike? Where do you see on the list of benefits it mentioning anything about ownership by it's MEMBERS? Do you think the AMA needs that much liability under their belt? Read Article 3 of the AMA Bylaws, clearly states that you are a member, not an owner.

The AMA is in fact a membership organization, not owned by it's members. There is a difference between owned by it's members and run by it's members. You are talking about the AMA and what is stands for; "the company belongs to it's members". How many companies have you worked for or been part of where the boss has told you this? All of them? It's called a mission statement, but from a legal and reality ascpect, it's nothing more then fluff to get you to be part of their organization.

This is exactly right. Look at how polititions don't listen to your opinion in Washington or Richmond for that matter.Why, in Richmond, The senate let former Gov. Warner raise taxes by a signifiant margin.(He ran on a platform of not raising taxes) I can easily tell you that 75% of Virginians DON'T want their taxes raised. Thats a local example for me, how about in Washington, look at the Dubai ports issue. Americans didn't want to keep just them from running our ports, we wanted any non-American company to not be running anything crucial like the ports. But, guess what, this is still happening with other crucial ports, just not with Dubai.

I take offense at that last point. The AMA doesn't need another overpriced piece of land. Maybe 100 grand would better suit.

Wow Abel, you're exactly right.


50%

Yes, your right I do believe that stand together stuff and yes it is not the 1950's but then again this forum is about flying R/C airplane's not Geo. Washington.
Although I respect and stand by your decision's, you are the exact point I am trying to make, keep thing's in context. If you have a gripe about the Government go to a forum that is about the Government, that is the place to vent about that.
Tea? no way baby doll I am a coffee man,lol. Although I like to read these post's it's about the AMA not G.W. or History of the US as you perceive it.
You may want to try a positive outlook and try yourself to make thing's better or maybe you just need to vent and do nothing. Well, this is cheaper than a psychologist.
Then again I hear a guy named Usama is looking for a few good sheep.

again with the sheep lable?
why does the outcast independant thinker (me) keep getting the sheep line?
Maybe if I conform more... would that make me LESS sheeplike in your eyes?

I don't wanna be a suicide RC plane flyer... you know, Fly an RC into a building, then jump under a bus.

Was simple enough to get Corp Officers(board) from the California Sec of State online, just check the SoS where the AMA incorporated.

Hmmm, California, independent thinker and sheep label, well uhh. Conforming to thine own self to be true.
When using epoxy, ventilate well, C/A too.

Fred-

Not unreasonable considering that it is comprehensive, covering liability (in excess of HO, et al) risks far greater than flying toy airplanes, which doesn't make it into the top twenty risk categories in stats published by the insurance industry. You could probably knock a C-note off that premium if $1 mil is enough. That's up to how conservative you think you need to be and what other risks you may face, but I am unaware of any settlement involving toy airplanes to date that approaches $2 mil. IIRC, AMA raised the ante to $2.5 mil in response to coverage in a similar amount offered by The Great Satan SFA, way back when. I don't see it as a realistic evaluation of the probable threat, except as a 3-sigma deviation. The risk to your fiscal well-being is doubtless much greater while driving the family hack. You don't likely have $2 mil coverage for that (but you would with the PUP).

Abel

Okey doke, off to toast the VISA card a bit more . . .
<g>

200 grand might get you enough land for the parking lot and an outhouse

200k in most states would be plenty depending upon location, even Ca. You're definitely not going to purchase property in downtown LA for that kind of money That also was based on 10m when the price was actually 19m that jumps the $ amount to 380k per state. That's just from the museum moola, if the muncie site would have been downsized a little more the amount probably would have jumped to 500k or more. That's putting 1 site in every state.

Another better option would be to build 6 to 8 centrally located sites around the country. That brings the $ amount to 2,375,000 +. That would make a resort in 8 states!!!! It's over 3m in just 6 states....

Even another option would be to develop closed landfill sites in ? 25 states. They could have done this for a very minimal amount of money, way less than 2.5m and had some very nice places with great locations.... I know as we fly off of a closed landfill.. over 80 acres. The county even gave us a paved runway

The last option would be for them to sponsor 50 clubs.. They could have put just a little money into developing an already established club in each state and make it into a regional flying site for a minimal expense... Just think what could be done to an existing club with an addition 100-200k not to mention the pride and confidence that would instill in the members to-wards the ama located around the country I used to visit a club located right outside of lancaster Ca that was a little remote but very nice. It could have definately been developed into a nice regional site very easily. I believe that this would also boost the membership around the country which in turn brings in more revenue and hobby recognition with outside agencies...

Hey at least we are brainstorming but there are some flaws in your assesments.

That's great and all but sometimes the land fees is only a small portion of the price of a club, in many cases it's the lowest as they get land donated or leased. What about to build the airfield itself? Runways, paving, landscaping, shelter etc. This is where major costs come into play. Then if you don't do pavement you have to buy equipment to mow the grass. Whose going to keep it maintained? Numbers start to add up.

The only problem is that many clubs usually don't get hit up with large grants and when they do they tend to overspend the money or it gets mismanaged. Seen it happen to a club that got 35k gift from ex member. They spent it like water and became more in debt then they started with.