Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
05-30-2006 | 11:53 AM
#51
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: WingShot
The perception amongst the younger people is: the AMA is an old man's organization, run by old men for old men.
Josh
ORIGINAL: Hossfly
https://www.modelaircraft.org/member...tion%20rpt.PDF
Average age of AMA members in Spring, 2004: 57.5 Median: 58.9
https://www.modelaircraft.org/member...tion%20rpt.PDF
Average age of AMA members in Spring, 2004: 57.5 Median: 58.9
Josh
I guess we've gotten old with the AMA, I was just a youngster when I got my junior membership. So, was the AMA a kid's organization run by kids, for kids then?
Bill, AMA 4720
05-30-2006 | 11:57 AM
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From: Ocean Springs,
MS
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: ptulmer
Why are you guys saying the the 'electric crowd' is the same as the 'parkflier crowd' That's simply not true. quint, nobody is trying to stop people from flying in football fields with permission. I just don't think you deserve a discount for doing it.
Why are you guys saying the the 'electric crowd' is the same as the 'parkflier crowd' That's simply not true. quint, nobody is trying to stop people from flying in football fields with permission. I just don't think you deserve a discount for doing it.
As to insurance coverage, my small Cox foamy warbirds get all the coverage I need from my homeowner's policy at the football field and the big stuff flies at the local field with regular AMA coverage as a supplement to my policy. (AMA insurance is not the primary coverage for us in any case) Apparently the 'outlaw' park fliers don't want and/or need AMA and all the flapping we do here goes right by deaf ears. We will need THEM to have a voice with FAA, FCC and the politicos of this world. If we keep ignoring, insulting and isolating a possible base for future membership the rub won't be just worrying about giving them a 'discount membership' it will be hoping we don't become as powerless a voice as the hula hoop world series (with apologies to that fine organization which once had over 250,000 members).
05-30-2006 | 12:20 PM
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From: San Antonio,
TX
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
The perception amongst the younger people is: the AMA is an old man's organization, run by old men for old men.
Josh
Josh
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
our citizen brothers and sisters too that live in urban regions whom are standoffish of joining our wonderful club
our citizen brothers and sisters too that live in urban regions whom are standoffish of joining our wonderful club
05-30-2006 | 12:39 PM
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From: Orlinda,
TN
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
I guess we've gotten old with the AMA, I was just a youngster when I got my junior membership. So, was the AMA a kid's organization run by kids, for kids then?
Bill, AMA 4720
I guess we've gotten old with the AMA, I was just a youngster when I got my junior membership. So, was the AMA a kid's organization run by kids, for kids then?
Bill, AMA 4720
The perception is the AMA is close minded...that lot of the old guys you find in clubs right on up through the ranks of the AMA are close minded. 3d flying, sonny that's not the way an airplane is supposed to fly. Electric, what the--dang sonny what is that a lipoly. Foamy, that's not a real plane. Slow, set in their ways, sluggish, dreaming of yesteryear, average age of 60, when ARF is what a dog barked (not a plane ya bought) and you stick built a plane right. A dying organization.
Increasingly, I see (I'm 30), people my age and younger tending just to fly informally in groups (gas, glow, electric whatever).
05-30-2006 | 12:47 PM
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From: Fremont,
CA
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
Quite possible. I suppose AMA could get those "Park Flyer" attributes running and then advertise with the slogan: "This isn't your father's AMA!"
(Oh....that was bad...I deserve to be banned for such dorkiness......)
(Oh....that was bad...I deserve to be banned for such dorkiness......)
05-30-2006 | 12:57 PM
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From: Orlinda,
TN
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: macr0t0r
Quite possible. I suppose AMA could get those "Park Flyer" attributes running and then advertise with the slogan: "This isn't your father's AMA!"
(Oh....that was bad...I deserve to be banned for such dorkiness......)
Quite possible. I suppose AMA could get those "Park Flyer" attributes running and then advertise with the slogan: "This isn't your father's AMA!"
(Oh....that was bad...I deserve to be banned for such dorkiness......)
05-30-2006 | 01:00 PM
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From: Brunswick,
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RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
Hmmm... It's the AMA's fault? Not the invention of the Nintendo and the fact you can't let a kid ride his bicycle all over because you're afraid some pervert might grab him? Urban sprawl? The world has changed and the AMA isn't at fault. Wingshot, you're so far astray, it's not even worth arguing with you. Most people haven't heard about the AMA until they show up at the club asking questions.
Enough of the lame excuses, guys. The real reason they don't sign up is they don't want to. Period. When they get kicked out of the last park, they'll come to the club demanding things. And I'll happily tell them how to go start their own club.
If you want kids brought into the organization, it has to happen at the local level. Have events, invite families and have intro pilots to give them a taste. I don't see selfish parkfliers doing that. I see local clubs do it regularly.
Enough of the lame excuses, guys. The real reason they don't sign up is they don't want to. Period. When they get kicked out of the last park, they'll come to the club demanding things. And I'll happily tell them how to go start their own club.
If you want kids brought into the organization, it has to happen at the local level. Have events, invite families and have intro pilots to give them a taste. I don't see selfish parkfliers doing that. I see local clubs do it regularly.
05-30-2006 | 01:13 PM
#58
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: WingShot
I would say the AMA hasn't changed with the times and has done miserably at reaching out to younger pilots, hence the average of age of nearly 60.
The perception is the AMA is close minded...that lot of the old guys you find in clubs right on up through the ranks of the AMA are close minded. 3d flying, sonny that's not the way an airplane is supposed to fly. Electric, what the--dang sonny what is that a lipoly. Foamy, that's not a real plane. Slow, set in their ways, sluggish, dreaming of yesteryear, average age of 60, when ARF is what a dog barked (not a plane ya bought) and you stick built a plane right. A dying organization.
Increasingly, I see (I'm 30), people my age and younger tending just to fly informally in groups (gas, glow, electric whatever).
I would say the AMA hasn't changed with the times and has done miserably at reaching out to younger pilots, hence the average of age of nearly 60.
The perception is the AMA is close minded...that lot of the old guys you find in clubs right on up through the ranks of the AMA are close minded. 3d flying, sonny that's not the way an airplane is supposed to fly. Electric, what the--dang sonny what is that a lipoly. Foamy, that's not a real plane. Slow, set in their ways, sluggish, dreaming of yesteryear, average age of 60, when ARF is what a dog barked (not a plane ya bought) and you stick built a plane right. A dying organization.
Increasingly, I see (I'm 30), people my age and younger tending just to fly informally in groups (gas, glow, electric whatever).
Bill, AMA 4720
05-30-2006 | 02:12 PM
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From: Fremont,
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RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
Just for clarification: A $30 RTF foamie may be a Park Flyer....but a Park Flyer is NOT necessarily a $30 RTF foamie! Many of us DO build with sticks and many of us DO put in some high-end gear to get the performance we want. Quit saying that "Park Flyer" = "Newbie foam-flyer who doesn't care about AMA." We have a lot of those guys within our "Park Flyer" class, but we don't really pay them much mind, as most aren't the type to join ANY club anyways. We only care about the guys who put a little effort into the hobby, either through building or advanced flying.
Now, it's time for a quick story of how it USE to be:
Little Tommy wanted to fly an airplane and heard about RC Flying. After a bit of searching, he found that only RC-specific hobby shops carried them. He went to the nearest one. After the store owner helps set him up with all the gear (Futaba radio, OS .25, PT-20 trainer, etc), he directs him to the nearest club. Tommy visits the club, and meets a few pilots who give him pointers on assembling his plane. They also talk of how he'll need AMA insurance to fly there. Tommy sends in the AMA application and finishes his airplane. He goes to the club, which then assigns a trainer to him. As he progresses, Tommy starts looking into his next plane.
Now, how does it happen THESE days:
Little Jack wants to fly an Airplane. He finds an Airhogs AeroAce Biplane at Target for $30. He buys that and an 8-pack of batteries. He goes to the school field, tosses it and basically fumbles around as he gets the hang of it. This is easy because the model is indestructible, slow, and flies like driving a car. Soon, Jack wants to loop and roll. Seeing nothing at Target, he discovers one of the many HobbyTown USA stores. He gets a PicoStick, a GWS radio, and a Backyard Flyers magazine (Model Aviation is NOT there; I checked). This takes some preparation since he has to set up the servos, but it's running after an evening's worth of work. He goes to the same field. The PicoStick is also nearly indestructable, so he mainly just bends a few motor shafts as he learns ($3 fix at Hobbytown). He sticks with it and eventually gets to looping. After flipping through his catalog, he learns of Hobby-Lobby, Tower Hobbies, and Balsa Products USA and starts getting into steadily higher-end gear. Depending on his interests, he may get into "pretty" built-up kits, or he'll master Depron foam and experiment with his own designs, or he'll just buy and fly because he is only interested in aerobatics. Either way, he starts acquiring a number of models.
Now.....what is different between these two? Stores who don't care about clubs are selling airplanes. This digital-age generation gets most of their stuff online, who ALSO don't say anything about local clubs. Kids these days are learning how to fly and becoming full-fledge modelers WITHOUT KNOWING YOU EXIST!!! Once upon a time, the limited availability of RC and the limited locations to fly would literally CHANNEL the new pilots to your door. You just had to wait for them to arrive. Since your field required AMA, it was just as easy for AMA. Not anymore.
Believe me...these Playstation-jockeys have NO problems learning how to fly on their own with today's equipment. Trial & error is perfectly feasible. The enthusiasts still enjoy finding other pilots to fly with (many of them congregate at a specific section of the park to fly at my location), so it's not so much an aversion to joining a club. Now, many at my park DID eventually join AMA because many members of the nearby club like to fly at the park (shaded trees, quiet, and it's closer). The lured them in by offering them to "prove themselves" at hosted events at the flying field. Not many of them are club members, since they rarely like to fly around the heavier, louder gas birds, but many of them ARE AMA members for the magazine and for the ability to join events.
But, that's because the club had members go to the park.
Does AMA NEED Park Flyer pilots? In my opinion, not yet, but the extra numbers and revenue would certainly help with AMA's tasks. AMA does recognize that a small percentage of Park Flyers COULD join if they were told about AMA and its benefits, but getting the word out is difficult. I sincerely doubt some flyer in a box will help, because I rarely read all the included warranty, coupons, registration, etc that comes in a box these days. A club recruits members by having members talk to people.
I am a Park Flyer, but I think the people who claim we will "take over" the RC world are just expressing bitterness to the existing AMA members who look down on us. I DO believe that the majority of the future modelers will start with a $30 foamie from Target. Those that progress to elevator and aileron control and dabble into either building or maneuvers will become modelers. Those that never get interested to go beyond flying circles with a $30 foamie are just seeing it as a toy and will see no need to join a "club" in order to play with a "toy."
My major concern is that there are A LOT of foamie-flyers who COULD be modeling members if we could just connect and show them what this hobby can offer. Unfortunately, technology has taken away the forced path to the local club. We have to go outside of our fence to find them now.
Now, it's time for a quick story of how it USE to be:
Little Tommy wanted to fly an airplane and heard about RC Flying. After a bit of searching, he found that only RC-specific hobby shops carried them. He went to the nearest one. After the store owner helps set him up with all the gear (Futaba radio, OS .25, PT-20 trainer, etc), he directs him to the nearest club. Tommy visits the club, and meets a few pilots who give him pointers on assembling his plane. They also talk of how he'll need AMA insurance to fly there. Tommy sends in the AMA application and finishes his airplane. He goes to the club, which then assigns a trainer to him. As he progresses, Tommy starts looking into his next plane.
Now, how does it happen THESE days:
Little Jack wants to fly an Airplane. He finds an Airhogs AeroAce Biplane at Target for $30. He buys that and an 8-pack of batteries. He goes to the school field, tosses it and basically fumbles around as he gets the hang of it. This is easy because the model is indestructible, slow, and flies like driving a car. Soon, Jack wants to loop and roll. Seeing nothing at Target, he discovers one of the many HobbyTown USA stores. He gets a PicoStick, a GWS radio, and a Backyard Flyers magazine (Model Aviation is NOT there; I checked). This takes some preparation since he has to set up the servos, but it's running after an evening's worth of work. He goes to the same field. The PicoStick is also nearly indestructable, so he mainly just bends a few motor shafts as he learns ($3 fix at Hobbytown). He sticks with it and eventually gets to looping. After flipping through his catalog, he learns of Hobby-Lobby, Tower Hobbies, and Balsa Products USA and starts getting into steadily higher-end gear. Depending on his interests, he may get into "pretty" built-up kits, or he'll master Depron foam and experiment with his own designs, or he'll just buy and fly because he is only interested in aerobatics. Either way, he starts acquiring a number of models.
Now.....what is different between these two? Stores who don't care about clubs are selling airplanes. This digital-age generation gets most of their stuff online, who ALSO don't say anything about local clubs. Kids these days are learning how to fly and becoming full-fledge modelers WITHOUT KNOWING YOU EXIST!!! Once upon a time, the limited availability of RC and the limited locations to fly would literally CHANNEL the new pilots to your door. You just had to wait for them to arrive. Since your field required AMA, it was just as easy for AMA. Not anymore.
Believe me...these Playstation-jockeys have NO problems learning how to fly on their own with today's equipment. Trial & error is perfectly feasible. The enthusiasts still enjoy finding other pilots to fly with (many of them congregate at a specific section of the park to fly at my location), so it's not so much an aversion to joining a club. Now, many at my park DID eventually join AMA because many members of the nearby club like to fly at the park (shaded trees, quiet, and it's closer). The lured them in by offering them to "prove themselves" at hosted events at the flying field. Not many of them are club members, since they rarely like to fly around the heavier, louder gas birds, but many of them ARE AMA members for the magazine and for the ability to join events.
But, that's because the club had members go to the park.
Does AMA NEED Park Flyer pilots? In my opinion, not yet, but the extra numbers and revenue would certainly help with AMA's tasks. AMA does recognize that a small percentage of Park Flyers COULD join if they were told about AMA and its benefits, but getting the word out is difficult. I sincerely doubt some flyer in a box will help, because I rarely read all the included warranty, coupons, registration, etc that comes in a box these days. A club recruits members by having members talk to people.
I am a Park Flyer, but I think the people who claim we will "take over" the RC world are just expressing bitterness to the existing AMA members who look down on us. I DO believe that the majority of the future modelers will start with a $30 foamie from Target. Those that progress to elevator and aileron control and dabble into either building or maneuvers will become modelers. Those that never get interested to go beyond flying circles with a $30 foamie are just seeing it as a toy and will see no need to join a "club" in order to play with a "toy."
My major concern is that there are A LOT of foamie-flyers who COULD be modeling members if we could just connect and show them what this hobby can offer. Unfortunately, technology has taken away the forced path to the local club. We have to go outside of our fence to find them now.
05-30-2006 | 02:26 PM
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From: Brunswick,
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RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: macr0t0r
I am a Park Flyer, but I think the people who claim we will "take over" the RC world are just expressing bitterness to the existing AMA members who look down on us. I DO believe that the majority of the future modelers will start with a $30 foamie from Target. Those that progress to elevator and aileron control and dabble into either building or maneuvers will become modelers. Those that never get interested to go beyond flying circles with a $30 foamie are just seeing it as a toy and will see no need to join a "club" in order to play with a "toy."
I am a Park Flyer, but I think the people who claim we will "take over" the RC world are just expressing bitterness to the existing AMA members who look down on us. I DO believe that the majority of the future modelers will start with a $30 foamie from Target. Those that progress to elevator and aileron control and dabble into either building or maneuvers will become modelers. Those that never get interested to go beyond flying circles with a $30 foamie are just seeing it as a toy and will see no need to join a "club" in order to play with a "toy."
05-30-2006 | 02:39 PM
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From: Ocean Springs,
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RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
I build yesteryear's type of airplane, mainly because thay exhibit something that you can't get from a foamy, park flyer or any other ARF. It's called character. And by the way, only Little Orphan Annie's dog, Sandy said ARF. If this makes me part of a dying breed, then, Sonny, you are going to miss out on a lot. There is a tremendous difference in flying something that you have created, and something that you partially assembled. So don't say that you are going out to fly your plane. Just say I'm going out to fly Nguyen Schwartz' plane that he built, and I bought. Those who can, Do. Those who cannot, rationalize.
Bill, AMA 4720
I build yesteryear's type of airplane, mainly because thay exhibit something that you can't get from a foamy, park flyer or any other ARF. It's called character. And by the way, only Little Orphan Annie's dog, Sandy said ARF. If this makes me part of a dying breed, then, Sonny, you are going to miss out on a lot. There is a tremendous difference in flying something that you have created, and something that you partially assembled. So don't say that you are going out to fly your plane. Just say I'm going out to fly Nguyen Schwartz' plane that he built, and I bought. Those who can, Do. Those who cannot, rationalize.
Bill, AMA 4720
Bill, some of us youngsters (I'm only 63) who fly electrics also build stick planes as you can see from my 17" ittle rubber to e-flite conversion. You can only imagine what I used to say about 3D and giant scale before I learned how to do 'em. By the way my 25% edge is going electric too. It's not called character it's called moving on with the times...
05-30-2006 | 02:42 PM
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From: Fremont,
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RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
???
Sorry, I thought you've seen my other posts. Me? I rarely, if ever, have issues. But that's because I understand that you FIRST introduce yourself to a club and chat a little before you start grabbing a frequency. Even so, there is usually one or two modelers who might snub my gear, but that's hardly an issue. They snub the gas ARFs just as much. I've certainly have never been turned away. All I can say is that I have heard stories of worse situations.
I'm referring to...ahem....OTHER forum citizens who have made some pretty harsh claims about their treatment at local clubs and then got into quite the preaching of how Park Flyers would completely take over the hobby. But, mentioning specific names is not only poor manners, but also an invitiation for another flame-war. I think we had enough of those last week.
Remember, I AM an AMA member and I DO fly at clubs as I travel around. I don't have anything against the existing AMA membership. I'm just trying to find a solution for more potential members to find us, is all.
Sorry, I thought you've seen my other posts. Me? I rarely, if ever, have issues. But that's because I understand that you FIRST introduce yourself to a club and chat a little before you start grabbing a frequency. Even so, there is usually one or two modelers who might snub my gear, but that's hardly an issue. They snub the gas ARFs just as much. I've certainly have never been turned away. All I can say is that I have heard stories of worse situations.
I'm referring to...ahem....OTHER forum citizens who have made some pretty harsh claims about their treatment at local clubs and then got into quite the preaching of how Park Flyers would completely take over the hobby. But, mentioning specific names is not only poor manners, but also an invitiation for another flame-war. I think we had enough of those last week.
Remember, I AM an AMA member and I DO fly at clubs as I travel around. I don't have anything against the existing AMA membership. I'm just trying to find a solution for more potential members to find us, is all.
05-30-2006 | 02:48 PM
#63
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: quint-rcu
Bill, some of us youngsters (I'm only 63) who fly electrics also build stick planes as you can see from my 17" ittle rubber to e-flite conversion. You can only imagine what I used to say about 3D and giant scale before I learned how to do 'em. By the way my 25% edge is going electric too. It's not called character it's called moving on with the times...
Bill, some of us youngsters (I'm only 63) who fly electrics also build stick planes as you can see from my 17" ittle rubber to e-flite conversion. You can only imagine what I used to say about 3D and giant scale before I learned how to do 'em. By the way my 25% edge is going electric too. It's not called character it's called moving on with the times...
Bill, AMA 4720
05-30-2006 | 02:53 PM
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RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
@ quint-rcu: That Beechcraft Staggerwing is a work of art! What's the wingspan on that little baby? I'm trying to find a kit that's around 26 inches in wingspan for my AXI 2212/34 motor.
05-30-2006 | 03:03 PM
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RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: macr0t0r
Just for clarification: A $30 RTF foamie may be a Park Flyer....but a Park Flyer is NOT necessarily a $30 RTF foamie! Many of us DO build with sticks and many of us DO put in some high-end gear to get the performance we want. Quit saying that "Park Flyer" = "Newbie foam-flyer who doesn't care about AMA." We have a lot of those guys within our "Park Flyer" class, but we don't really pay them much mind, as most aren't the type to join ANY club anyways. We only care about the guys who put a little effort into the hobby, either through building or advanced flying.
Now, it's time for a quick story of how it USE to be:
Little Tommy wanted to fly an airplane and heard about RC Flying. After a bit of searching, he found that only RC-specific hobby shops carried them. He went to the nearest one. After the store owner helps set him up with all the gear (Futaba radio, OS .25, PT-20 trainer, etc), he directs him to the nearest club. Tommy visits the club, and meets a few pilots who give him pointers on assembling his plane. They also talk of how he'll need AMA insurance to fly there. Tommy sends in the AMA application and finishes his airplane. He goes to the club, which then assigns a trainer to him. As he progresses, Tommy starts looking into his next plane.
Now, how does it happen THESE days:
Little Jack wants to fly an Airplane. He finds an Airhogs AeroAce Biplane at Target for $30. He buys that and an 8-pack of batteries. He goes to the school field, tosses it and basically fumbles around as he gets the hang of it. This is easy because the model is indestructible, slow, and flies like driving a car. Soon, Jack wants to loop and roll. Seeing nothing at Target, he discovers one of the many HobbyTown USA stores. He gets a PicoStick, a GWS radio, and a Backyard Flyers magazine (Model Aviation is NOT there; I checked). This takes some preparation since he has to set up the servos, but it's running after an evening's worth of work. He goes to the same field. The PicoStick is also nearly indestructable, so he mainly just bends a few motor shafts as he learns ($3 fix at Hobbytown). He sticks with it and eventually gets to looping. After flipping through his catalog, he learns of Hobby-Lobby, Tower Hobbies, and Balsa Products USA and starts getting into steadily higher-end gear. Depending on his interests, he may get into "pretty" built-up kits, or he'll master Depron foam and experiment with his own designs, or he'll just buy and fly because he is only interested in aerobatics. Either way, he starts acquiring a number of models.
Now.....what is different between these two? Stores who don't care about clubs are selling airplanes. This digital-age generation gets most of their stuff online, who ALSO don't say anything about local clubs. Kids these days are learning how to fly and becoming full-fledge modelers WITHOUT KNOWING YOU EXIST!!! Once upon a time, the limited availability of RC and the limited locations to fly would literally CHANNEL the new pilots to your door. You just had to wait for them to arrive. Since your field required AMA, it was just as easy for AMA. Not anymore.
Believe me...these Playstation-jockeys have NO problems learning how to fly on their own with today's equipment. Trial & error is perfectly feasible. The enthusiasts still enjoy finding other pilots to fly with (many of them congregate at a specific section of the park to fly at my location), so it's not so much an aversion to joining a club. Now, many at my park DID eventually join AMA because many members of the nearby club like to fly at the park (shaded trees, quiet, and it's closer). The lured them in by offering them to "prove themselves" at hosted events at the flying field. Not many of them are club members, since they rarely like to fly around the heavier, louder gas birds, but many of them ARE AMA members for the magazine and for the ability to join events.
But, that's because the club had members go to the park.
Does AMA NEED Park Flyer pilots? In my opinion, not yet, but the extra numbers and revenue would certainly help with AMA's tasks. AMA does recognize that a small percentage of Park Flyers COULD join if they were told about AMA and its benefits, but getting the word out is difficult. I sincerely doubt some flyer in a box will help, because I rarely read all the included warranty, coupons, registration, etc that comes in a box these days. A club recruits members by having members talk to people.
I am a Park Flyer, but I think the people who claim we will "take over" the RC world are just expressing bitterness to the existing AMA members who look down on us. I DO believe that the majority of the future modelers will start with a $30 foamie from Target. Those that progress to elevator and aileron control and dabble into either building or maneuvers will become modelers. Those that never get interested to go beyond flying circles with a $30 foamie are just seeing it as a toy and will see no need to join a "club" in order to play with a "toy."
My major concern is that there are A LOT of foamie-flyers who COULD be modeling members if we could just connect and show them what this hobby can offer. Unfortunately, technology has taken away the forced path to the local club. We have to go outside of our fence to find them now.
Just for clarification: A $30 RTF foamie may be a Park Flyer....but a Park Flyer is NOT necessarily a $30 RTF foamie! Many of us DO build with sticks and many of us DO put in some high-end gear to get the performance we want. Quit saying that "Park Flyer" = "Newbie foam-flyer who doesn't care about AMA." We have a lot of those guys within our "Park Flyer" class, but we don't really pay them much mind, as most aren't the type to join ANY club anyways. We only care about the guys who put a little effort into the hobby, either through building or advanced flying.
Now, it's time for a quick story of how it USE to be:
Little Tommy wanted to fly an airplane and heard about RC Flying. After a bit of searching, he found that only RC-specific hobby shops carried them. He went to the nearest one. After the store owner helps set him up with all the gear (Futaba radio, OS .25, PT-20 trainer, etc), he directs him to the nearest club. Tommy visits the club, and meets a few pilots who give him pointers on assembling his plane. They also talk of how he'll need AMA insurance to fly there. Tommy sends in the AMA application and finishes his airplane. He goes to the club, which then assigns a trainer to him. As he progresses, Tommy starts looking into his next plane.
Now, how does it happen THESE days:
Little Jack wants to fly an Airplane. He finds an Airhogs AeroAce Biplane at Target for $30. He buys that and an 8-pack of batteries. He goes to the school field, tosses it and basically fumbles around as he gets the hang of it. This is easy because the model is indestructible, slow, and flies like driving a car. Soon, Jack wants to loop and roll. Seeing nothing at Target, he discovers one of the many HobbyTown USA stores. He gets a PicoStick, a GWS radio, and a Backyard Flyers magazine (Model Aviation is NOT there; I checked). This takes some preparation since he has to set up the servos, but it's running after an evening's worth of work. He goes to the same field. The PicoStick is also nearly indestructable, so he mainly just bends a few motor shafts as he learns ($3 fix at Hobbytown). He sticks with it and eventually gets to looping. After flipping through his catalog, he learns of Hobby-Lobby, Tower Hobbies, and Balsa Products USA and starts getting into steadily higher-end gear. Depending on his interests, he may get into "pretty" built-up kits, or he'll master Depron foam and experiment with his own designs, or he'll just buy and fly because he is only interested in aerobatics. Either way, he starts acquiring a number of models.
Now.....what is different between these two? Stores who don't care about clubs are selling airplanes. This digital-age generation gets most of their stuff online, who ALSO don't say anything about local clubs. Kids these days are learning how to fly and becoming full-fledge modelers WITHOUT KNOWING YOU EXIST!!! Once upon a time, the limited availability of RC and the limited locations to fly would literally CHANNEL the new pilots to your door. You just had to wait for them to arrive. Since your field required AMA, it was just as easy for AMA. Not anymore.
Believe me...these Playstation-jockeys have NO problems learning how to fly on their own with today's equipment. Trial & error is perfectly feasible. The enthusiasts still enjoy finding other pilots to fly with (many of them congregate at a specific section of the park to fly at my location), so it's not so much an aversion to joining a club. Now, many at my park DID eventually join AMA because many members of the nearby club like to fly at the park (shaded trees, quiet, and it's closer). The lured them in by offering them to "prove themselves" at hosted events at the flying field. Not many of them are club members, since they rarely like to fly around the heavier, louder gas birds, but many of them ARE AMA members for the magazine and for the ability to join events.
But, that's because the club had members go to the park.
Does AMA NEED Park Flyer pilots? In my opinion, not yet, but the extra numbers and revenue would certainly help with AMA's tasks. AMA does recognize that a small percentage of Park Flyers COULD join if they were told about AMA and its benefits, but getting the word out is difficult. I sincerely doubt some flyer in a box will help, because I rarely read all the included warranty, coupons, registration, etc that comes in a box these days. A club recruits members by having members talk to people.
I am a Park Flyer, but I think the people who claim we will "take over" the RC world are just expressing bitterness to the existing AMA members who look down on us. I DO believe that the majority of the future modelers will start with a $30 foamie from Target. Those that progress to elevator and aileron control and dabble into either building or maneuvers will become modelers. Those that never get interested to go beyond flying circles with a $30 foamie are just seeing it as a toy and will see no need to join a "club" in order to play with a "toy."
My major concern is that there are A LOT of foamie-flyers who COULD be modeling members if we could just connect and show them what this hobby can offer. Unfortunately, technology has taken away the forced path to the local club. We have to go outside of our fence to find them now.
50%
05-30-2006 | 03:49 PM
#67
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RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: ptulmer
When they get kicked out of the last park, they'll come to the club demanding things.
When they get kicked out of the last park, they'll come to the club demanding things.
05-30-2006 | 04:32 PM
#68
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: WingShot
The perception amongst the younger people is: the AMA is an old man's organization, run by old men for old men.
Josh
ORIGINAL: Hossfly
https://www.modelaircraft.org/member...tion%20rpt.PDF
Average age of AMA members in Spring, 2004: 57.5 Median: 58.9
https://www.modelaircraft.org/member...tion%20rpt.PDF
Average age of AMA members in Spring, 2004: 57.5 Median: 58.9
Josh
Is that YOUR perception, or are you speaking for the "younger" people? "Younger" than who? What?
If these people never want to be OLD PEOPLE, they have the means to never get old. [>:] Their choice. Here I haven't had a young person in a public school for 25+plus years and I still pay taxes in seven counties, 2 states, to help make these "younger people" smart. Strange that they aren't so dumb as to P & M about that!! Maybe it is us older folks that are the dumb ones -- investing in a no pay-back funding.
05-30-2006 | 04:42 PM
#69
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RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
AMA has ALWAYS been composed of old people. I joined when I was 10, and I thought I was surrounded by old farts back then! 
I really doubt that is the reason why many don't join. When I was younger, the college had its own RC club with its own insurance setup on school grounds. Those that stayed in the hobby didn't join AMA until they graduated. (shrug)
Slightly off topic, I just wanted to direct you to a "Park Flyers" forum thread of what true Park Flyer modelers fly: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448751
I posted this mainly for Stickbuilder's benefit. More sticks than you can shake a plane at!
Getting back ON topic, I agree with ptulmer that the "fence-sitter" Park Flyers will become more interested in joining AMA when they start feeling the squeeze. One possible reason there are so many AMA members at my park is that there are VERY few open parks to fly at in the Bay Area. I've been thinking that AMA and Park Flyers will join forces like fuel and air in a Diesel Piston...just need enough pressure!
1. AMA's dwindling membership of the Old Guard will cause it to change its structure to better support Public Park Flying. Already starting to happen, though I think the e-ticket proposal is a "false start."
2. Public Parks steadily get closed as city officials take the easy route to prevent lawsuits until Park Flyers start organizing themselves in order to keep some of the fields open. AMA will be the easiest method since it is already established and already has relations with FAA, FCC, Insurance, and government officials. Already starting to happen as more Park Flyers start seeking other flyers for help and more clubs have members pick up Park Flying on the side and meet up with the others.
We'll meet in the middle in the darkest of times. AMA will have to adjust, but so will the Park Flyers as they realize they'll need the structure and safety regulations of a chartered club if they are going to get ANYTHING through the city council.
I'm glad that AMA is already putting in an effort, but I think it needs a more flexible insurance structure and more commercial visibility, rather than some discounted, stripped membership card. AMA has pulled off some amazing stuff in the past, so I'm confident they'll find a solution.
I think there are many Park Flyers that already have the proper mentality to being good supportive members of AMA. Many just don't know enough about AMA to feel a need to join. That's just a matter of the current members getting the word out. As for the rest of the Park Flyers who think AMA and the chartered clubs no longer serve a purpose and will perish under the weight of the new "wave" of $30 foamies....enjoy that open park while it lasts.
Hey! I can idea! Let's go buy a bunch of paintball guns and go have a game at the park! Wha....what do you mean I can't? I bought it at a toy store, so that means I can use it anywhere, right? I have to go PAY to use it at some site? [&:]
The more stubborn members of the "Old Guard" need to understand that AMA will have to develop a plan to incorporate Public Parks since it is steadily becoming more difficult to establish leased Flying Sites. The Clubs in my area are awfully crowded already. Those parks will give AMA a new source of members and help to make this hobby grow. If AMA's numbers drop enough that they become too small a percentage of the population to be relevant in the eyes of Government officials, than there could be nasty spiral effect as neighboring residents petition off one field after another due to noise and perceived danger.
However, the Park Flyers also need to understand that it's just a matter of time before the Park Flyers get the same restricted treatment as the dogs, skateboards, paintball guns, and what have you. We're going to need the representation of a large membership in order to be heard. The current flying sites were not established by having 3 modelers say "pretty please" to the city council, y'know. They came in as a members of an organization of thousands of modelers with an established history of hundreds of successful flying sites. We're eventually going to need that. You might as well prep for the day when you'll need to organize a club and follow safety procedures in order to utilize a park.
I really doubt that is the reason why many don't join. When I was younger, the college had its own RC club with its own insurance setup on school grounds. Those that stayed in the hobby didn't join AMA until they graduated. (shrug)Slightly off topic, I just wanted to direct you to a "Park Flyers" forum thread of what true Park Flyer modelers fly: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448751
I posted this mainly for Stickbuilder's benefit. More sticks than you can shake a plane at!
Getting back ON topic, I agree with ptulmer that the "fence-sitter" Park Flyers will become more interested in joining AMA when they start feeling the squeeze. One possible reason there are so many AMA members at my park is that there are VERY few open parks to fly at in the Bay Area. I've been thinking that AMA and Park Flyers will join forces like fuel and air in a Diesel Piston...just need enough pressure!
1. AMA's dwindling membership of the Old Guard will cause it to change its structure to better support Public Park Flying. Already starting to happen, though I think the e-ticket proposal is a "false start."
2. Public Parks steadily get closed as city officials take the easy route to prevent lawsuits until Park Flyers start organizing themselves in order to keep some of the fields open. AMA will be the easiest method since it is already established and already has relations with FAA, FCC, Insurance, and government officials. Already starting to happen as more Park Flyers start seeking other flyers for help and more clubs have members pick up Park Flying on the side and meet up with the others.
We'll meet in the middle in the darkest of times. AMA will have to adjust, but so will the Park Flyers as they realize they'll need the structure and safety regulations of a chartered club if they are going to get ANYTHING through the city council.
I'm glad that AMA is already putting in an effort, but I think it needs a more flexible insurance structure and more commercial visibility, rather than some discounted, stripped membership card. AMA has pulled off some amazing stuff in the past, so I'm confident they'll find a solution.
I think there are many Park Flyers that already have the proper mentality to being good supportive members of AMA. Many just don't know enough about AMA to feel a need to join. That's just a matter of the current members getting the word out. As for the rest of the Park Flyers who think AMA and the chartered clubs no longer serve a purpose and will perish under the weight of the new "wave" of $30 foamies....enjoy that open park while it lasts.
Hey! I can idea! Let's go buy a bunch of paintball guns and go have a game at the park! Wha....what do you mean I can't? I bought it at a toy store, so that means I can use it anywhere, right? I have to go PAY to use it at some site? [&:]
The more stubborn members of the "Old Guard" need to understand that AMA will have to develop a plan to incorporate Public Parks since it is steadily becoming more difficult to establish leased Flying Sites. The Clubs in my area are awfully crowded already. Those parks will give AMA a new source of members and help to make this hobby grow. If AMA's numbers drop enough that they become too small a percentage of the population to be relevant in the eyes of Government officials, than there could be nasty spiral effect as neighboring residents petition off one field after another due to noise and perceived danger.
However, the Park Flyers also need to understand that it's just a matter of time before the Park Flyers get the same restricted treatment as the dogs, skateboards, paintball guns, and what have you. We're going to need the representation of a large membership in order to be heard. The current flying sites were not established by having 3 modelers say "pretty please" to the city council, y'know. They came in as a members of an organization of thousands of modelers with an established history of hundreds of successful flying sites. We're eventually going to need that. You might as well prep for the day when you'll need to organize a club and follow safety procedures in order to utilize a park.
05-30-2006 | 07:59 PM
#70
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: macr0t0r
Slightly off topic, I just wanted to direct you to a "Park Flyers" forum thread of what true Park Flyer modelers fly: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448751
I posted this mainly for Stickbuilder's benefit. More sticks than you can shake a plane at!
Slightly off topic, I just wanted to direct you to a "Park Flyers" forum thread of what true Park Flyer modelers fly: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448751
I posted this mainly for Stickbuilder's benefit. More sticks than you can shake a plane at!
Bill, AMA 4720
05-30-2006 | 08:15 PM
#71
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
Just jerking your chain... Dang, they are some little bitty sticks aren't they? But, they are hand built, and not ARF, RTF, ARC, BARF, or any other of those Initials that mean, "You didn't build it". Don't care what the power source is, they have character, and money can't buy character, or class either for that matter.
Bill, AMA 4720
Bill, AMA 4720
05-30-2006 | 08:26 PM
#72
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From: Brunswick,
GA
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
OK, this thread has run it's course for me. I've figured out that the majority of the PF'ers are already AMA members and don't need to be marketed to. macr0t0r, you've taken offense at some of the things I've said. I don't know why, you've never met me. But, to put things right, take a look at my website. PM me with your address and which airplanes you like. I'll ship you the full size plans to build as electrics. When you're done, I'll even post pictures and info on my site giving you full credit.
www.ulmer-rc.com
www.ulmer-rc.com
05-30-2006 | 08:32 PM
#73
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From: Manhattan,
NY
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
However, the Park Flyers also need to understand that it's just a matter of time before the Park Flyers get the same restricted treatment as the dogs, skateboards, paintball guns, and what have you.
The point is park are more then willing to listen and work with your cause and will most likely designate you an area in the park if you can show organization and responsibility. I've had plenty of first hand experience with these types of pitches to parks and IT WORKS if you can show organization, insurance, documentation, support from the AMA/FAA and so forth.
This effort begins with a new AMA "park flyer" model as the proposal stated. An updated version of an outdated structure SPECIFICALLY designed for parks, hence the "park" flyer. The current AMA model is not designed for the parks, only rural flying areas. If the parks see documentation specifically designed for them, then they will be much easier to work with. If you've ever made a pitch to a public park for a designated flying area you know exactly what I mean.
Bottom line is they will listen if you know how to throw the pitch and your pitch makes sense. Don't listen to these negative guys, it WILL WORK. I talked with someone from the AMA today and THEY ARE working on a new revised proposal, again aimed towards park flyers. If you guys can't see it coming then you're not the visionaries you think you are.
Maybe I'll write a book "Assisting the parks department to establish park flying in public parks for dummies". I bet I could sell a few copies, obviously. Funny part is the book will be loaded with common sense materials.
05-31-2006 | 12:20 AM
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From: Orlinda,
TN
RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: Hossfly
And YOUR point is: ????
Is that YOUR perception, or are you speaking for the "younger" people? "Younger" than who? What?
If these people never want to be OLD PEOPLE, they have the means to never get old. [>:] Their choice. Here I haven't had a young person in a public school for 25+plus years and I still pay taxes in seven counties, 2 states, to help make these "younger people" smart. Strange that they aren't so dumb as to P & M about that!! Maybe it is us older folks that are the dumb ones -- investing in a no pay-back funding.
And YOUR point is: ????
Is that YOUR perception, or are you speaking for the "younger" people? "Younger" than who? What?
If these people never want to be OLD PEOPLE, they have the means to never get old. [>:] Their choice. Here I haven't had a young person in a public school for 25+plus years and I still pay taxes in seven counties, 2 states, to help make these "younger people" smart. Strange that they aren't so dumb as to P & M about that!! Maybe it is us older folks that are the dumb ones -- investing in a no pay-back funding.
Look, my point is just the AMA seems grossly out of touch with younger people, say 35 and under. I mean, the current AMA president refused to even campaign or field questions from the Internet during the previous campaign, and if I remember correctly, he used the words "irrelevant" to describe the internet medium.
The AMA is going to die with you old guys if something's not done, that's all I'm saying. Just look at the membership numbers. Numbers don't lie--but people do.
05-31-2006 | 12:27 AM
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From: Orlinda,
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RE: Why does the AMA need PF'ers?
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
I'm over 60, and I still do stickbuild (hence the signature) because I can. I choose not to fly EP, because I have the ability to fly gas. I don't consider myself slow, I build yesteryear's type of airplane, mainly because thay exhibit something that you can't get from a foamy, park flyer or any other ARF. It's called character. And by the way, only Little Orphan Annie's dog, Sandy said ARF. If this makes me part of a dying breed, then, Sonny, you are going to miss out on a lot. There is a tremendous difference in flying something that you have created, and something that you partially assembled. So don't say that you are going out to fly your plane. Just say I'm going out to fly Nguyen Schwartz' plane that he built, and I bought. Those who can, Do. Those who cannot, rationalize.
Bill, AMA 4720
I'm over 60, and I still do stickbuild (hence the signature) because I can. I choose not to fly EP, because I have the ability to fly gas. I don't consider myself slow, I build yesteryear's type of airplane, mainly because thay exhibit something that you can't get from a foamy, park flyer or any other ARF. It's called character. And by the way, only Little Orphan Annie's dog, Sandy said ARF. If this makes me part of a dying breed, then, Sonny, you are going to miss out on a lot. There is a tremendous difference in flying something that you have created, and something that you partially assembled. So don't say that you are going out to fly your plane. Just say I'm going out to fly Nguyen Schwartz' plane that he built, and I bought. Those who can, Do. Those who cannot, rationalize.
Bill, AMA 4720
It's just some people your age are painfully slow to embrace new technology (right on up through the AMA). And some people your age view their own way of doing things to the *exclusion* of other, newer ways of doing things. The AMA now embraces electrics because it will die if it doesn't and its finally caught on.
