Liberator

Well, your name is of importance if you want to have any credibility. Also, did I predict the I will not respond any longer or what?
As I said before, I don't doubt that you have your point, but you simply have not met any burden of proof that your claim is the legitimate one. I can only assume that it is not.
Sorry friend, it still sounds like John was rail roaded by a group of folks with their own agenda.
You will have to break down and answer each allegation or he has the sympathy vote.

johns crazy

Sorry you feel that way. If you were local I'd offer to meet and have a cup of coffee and take the time to answer each question in detail, heck I'd even buy. But , there are some that are local that I would prefer to remain annoymous too.

The club at the begining of this year still has one of the largest memberships in the area with more members renewing or joining every day for less than any other club in the area. With a membership size almost three times that of John Casey's current club. If things were as bad as he says, I would assume a much smaller membership. Just like in politics there are different views of what is right and good for the majority..... model airplane clubs are no different. In clubs the majority usually ends up on top and the minority goes somewhere else and starts their own club or joins one that is closer to their interests.

I know you won't take my word for it, but the membership and the board which is voted in by the membership is a great group of guys to hang out with. We have tons of fun, lot's of events, and a beautiful site to fly at. Are there still problems........ yes. Has anyone else been terminated because of them....... no. Adults work together to come to mutual beneficial solutions. John was never railroaded, he was terminated with due process which has been backed by a court of law. If the club or the clubs board rail roaded John then I'm sure he would of won his case in court - at least one of the three times he sued.

I hope that this is enough information to change your opinion. If not I will try to answer civil questions as time arises. I have quite a bit on my plate over the next week so I may be out for awhile and if this forum doesn't get locked or removed I'll do my best to jump back in when I'm able.

Johns Crazy

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

MY ....MY, someones been busy...........


"With a membership size almost three times that of John Casey's current club. "

well thats a FLAT lie, woodland normal tally is 200 +

Sam went DOWN from 240 in 1998 to what it is now.... 170+

SAM club meetings normally 30-50...
down to 24... then down to 18.....

"In clubs the majority usually ends up on top and the minority goes somewhere else and starts their own club or joins one that is closer to their interests. "

translation: If your willing to do what the other guy won't you can take control too.
Cars keyed , aircraft shot down, votes dismissed, voting ingored,

many members fled to other nearby clubs just like people escaping the USSR.

"I know you won't take my word for it, but the membership and the board which
is voted in by the membership is a great group of guys to hang out with."

True .. I used to party with them...as long as you eat thier viewpoint, if you don't......well they are not such
a great group of guys if you don't see things thier way....
or try to reduce 36 days of racing down to the max of 16 days of events per the clubs rules,
or take down the pylons per the clubs rules.


"We have tons of fun, lot's of events,"

Translation...... mainly racing ............ go look at the events calender
(which Casey and Weiss dominated) both terminated for totally BS reasons.

"John was never railroaded,"
"he was terminated with due process"

Oh yea, recieved termination letter in mail,
no membership vote.....
not allowed to defend myself at the club meeting .....
not allowed to speak.....

"If the club or the clubs board rail roaded John then I'm sure he would of won his case in court "

John Casey did win his case in court ..........thats why "they" spent the clubs money
(WITHOUT MEMBERSHIP APPROVAL)
hiring a lawyer to "appeal" the case they lost.

Apparently this "party member" never saw the scathing finding......... against the SAM board.


Mr Crazy can't even cite the reasons given in the termination letter....



(now remember MR moderator I have the right to answer the mud tossing being tossed about here)

abel_pranger

We'll see. DavidAgar is viewing this thread as I write this. He has made chasing you and killing threads that you post to his mission in life.

Abel

JUGFLIER

That was a good factual response. I didnt see any name calling or mud slinging.

DavidAgar

My Feedback: (108)

Mr Casey and Mr Johns Crazy, is there any point in this continued conversation in whatever thread you can find to slide it into. It is quite apperanet that there are 2 sides to your story and from what I have read, the 2 sides are miles apart in refrence to the facts. Is there any way that this issue can help the advancment of RC flying and promote the hobby to prosepective new members who are looking into RCU for information prior to investing in our hobby? Will these negative comments about the others club help with membership growth in your respective clubs? RC clubs and fields are shutting down on a daily basis for a varity of reasons, so it is important that the clubs that have survived stay united in the advancment of RC and not continue to bicker about the clubs issue's or the problems of the next club down the road. I would ask that the 2 of you shake hands and rethink your position about each other, and if possible let sleeping dogs lay. Thanks Dave

Teachu2

My Feedback: (133)

Thanks A LOT, Dave - I just made popcorn, and you come along.....<GRIN>

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Any predictions on how much longer this thread will be open...

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

Hi David,

If you go back and look at the original posts (concerning the AMA PDF file 535-A)
and I know you can, you will see I never dragged the name of any club into the thread.

I can't help it if the guilty see themselves in the post and "react" by dragging "their" name in,
then start defaming RCU members, and refusing to discuss things.

I posted answers to the questions the forums viewers asked, the other "side " did not.

I provided facts and operations that any "club member" would be familar with,
roberts rules of order, motions made, voted on, outcomes actions and reactions.

I provided the link to the AMA pdf files in the discussion.

I provided links the club website so people could read for themselves,(only after being attacked),
then they pulled the newsletters so people could'nt read them.

I'm not hiding the information......

The whole point of information is for people to view it and learn from it. If thier clubs have it set up
that a "Board" can just terminate members with no membership say, its dangerous thing.

They should take the experience from The AMA seeing such "occurances" and consider fixing the bylaws.

If I could Motion the AMA to mandate the expulsion
and termination procedures into every AMA chartered club I would,
It would serve model aviation and its members well to do so.

Our founding fathers IN THEIR GREAT WISDOM put in the bill of rights
to protect its citizens....... FROM THIER OWN GOVERNMENT.

This internal club civil war started just because I tried to get a runway extended..
..in the best interest of model aviation..... and For that I am guilty.

Tommy_Gun

But the fact still remains, no matter how you try to paint it Mr. Casey, The ONLY reason you start any thread in here is to slam the SAM's.
You can candy coat it any way you please, you serve no purpose but to further your own agenda against the SAM's.

DavidAgar

My Feedback: (108)

It does not matter about the club names and who spilled the beans about what. Just what is it you hope to accomplish with the continued debating of this subject? Every club is made up of people and each club has the right to be run in a manner as dictated by the membership. You have made the statement that all you did was try to make the runway longer. I am thinking that had you gone over the boards head, or tryed to do an end around the wishes of the board and membership. you would have been tossed from alot of clubs. The club that I am a member of has a flying field that is owned by a goverment entitiy. We have an established protocol on how we approach the goverment when we want to discuss anything concerning the field. We have this protocol in place so as not to have members just going downtown and pestering our landlord and causing us grief. Our landlord knows who his point of contact is with our club and it is easier all the way around. As you say, all you did was try to get a runway longer. Were you doing this with the permission of your board and membership or were you working at being a hero and failed? Had you done this as a member of my club without board or membership approval, you would be writing post's about my club, as you would have been tossed from our club as well. As I suggested, consider putting this issue to bed, as I do not see you gaining anything from continuing it. Dave

Hossfly

IIRC Casey has stated that the membership has effectively been ignored by the "Board". Now I must admit that I haven't and don't plan to study this case in all its threads as much as I should have, prior to making such statement. The main argument against Casey has been, in paraphrase; Forget it, get over it, or Up Yours! It seems to me that Casey is trying to get the message out to the club members to take over their clubs and regain the control and NOT to give all the power to the board. I did disagree with him about the AMA guidelines as I think they give too much power to the Boards, however that is what the AMA EC wants and exercises for themselves. Example: The EC has been fighting to get the AMA Bylaws revised for 10 years or so, and now that seems to have died, because the Leader Members have to vote on such. The current "Adolfs" can't bear to think what might come from such.

You keep mixing membership with board. I think Casey keeps saying the board ignored the membership. Unfortunately when a lone voice keeps trying to tell the populace of impending problems no on wants to listen. I could list you a large number of hushed-up items that no one discusses from simple toy-airplane items to world domination subjects. That no one will listen has been proven. So you are probably right, it's time to let it go. Turn the key.

Now I am a bit testy today as I spent most of the day in court on a condemnation suit where the Big-Oil guys are taking a portion of one of my properties for a pipe-line and I basically get only to pay the taxes on "their" property forever. Not too handy reference these da_n dictators right now. [sm=48_48.gif]

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

I love seeing these threads that start out looking good and then turn into a loaded gun with the hammer back that someone set on the table for the kids to find. Horace, I liked your paraphrase, "Forget it......."

why not just survey your property in question, partition it and cede the portion in question to the "big oil", let them worry about the taxes on it. You ain't gonna win that one, either.

JUGFLIER

"Now I am a bit testy today as I spent most of the day in court on a condemnation suit where the Big-Oil guys are taking a portion of one of my properties for a pipe-line and I basically get only to pay the taxes on "their" property forever. Not too handy reference these da_n dictators right now." Quote Hossfly.

I am sorry to hear your predicament, one of the things ive learned in my short life is that the law usually favors the rich. The large corporations who can put money into elections get representation in the form of legislation. A one man army usually get run over. Stick to your guns and what is right Horace, and if you lose take solace in that you stood up for yourself and everyone else.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Interesting comment

So... I guess if one of your club members talked to your club's "landlord" he just might be ejected without due process... and that would be ok?


So there are only two possible scenarios? Hmmmm...rather limited view there Dave.

Hmmm...that doesn't fully answer the previous question but shows your sentiment...and your bias in this thread and gives insight in other threads that have been removed.


Speaks volumes and explains this thread to all but the dense or newcomer to these exchanges.

I really do not see how your club operation has squat to do with this particular situation. Why you, as a mod, choose to use it as some yardstick to determine how you will color this thread and previous threads is inappropriate to say the least IMO.

What would be wrong with letting a thread run its course while simply maintaining RCU’s policies.

For entire threads to disappear when they relate to AMA clubs and the operation of same is…well…the problem here and similarly within clubs the treads are about.

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

David said

"I am thinking that had you gone over the boards head, or tryed to do an end around the wishes of the board and membership."

Thats not so, the membership voted for the runway to be extended 89 to 1.

And as to me "working within the framework of the club"

(I asked the President to send the proposal in, he said he would)

The board failed to do there duty as directed by the memberships vote
and put the proposal into the county,
as requested BY the county parks supervisor.

The vote was taken May 2002.

Nov 6, 2002 I get this email from the county:
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........
To:John Casey
From: Henry Almanza

Hi John, I'm glad to to hear your group is still interested in the r/w extension,
however it is not as simple as it may seem. Your board or a rep from it needs to
provide a plan of intentions for review for our chief of planning and our director.
Once they approve it then it goes for environmental review.
To date we have not recieved anything.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............

COME ON............... SIX MONTHS LATER and still no proposal..There's no excuse.

So I sat down and sent a proposal in on the members behalf.

"These" people who claim to do "the Majorities will"
DROPPED THE BALL then stuffed it in the garbage can.


The process was spelled out at the May 2002 meeting by the county parks supervisor ,
to the members and the Board,and in this email AGAIN.


The board got sick of having thier initaives shot down By some good speaking on my part.

27 guys on thier side 27 on mine, 150 voters in the middle.

Vote to extend runway ...... put forth by me...passed...board defeated.

Vote to raise fees #1, brought up by the board....defeated

Vote to raise fees #2, brought up by the board....defeated

Vote to raise fees #3, brought up by the board....defeated

vote to Give wifes voting rights without being AMA members,
brought up by a board's lacky..........defeated

The members say no............ITS NO.
Don't bring it up again till next year

If you want to talk about and end run around the membership...

The Board puts this big huge monster
articule in the newsletter about getting indemity insurance,
COME AND HAVE YOUR VOICE HEARD THROUGH YOUR VOTE.

We show up to vote this thing down, they anounce WE ALREADY BOUGHT IT.

THEN people started walking out of the meeting as any of us would.
THATS ...........an end run arounfd the membership.

It was at that point I called for the dismissal of the board for Miss-approperation of funds,
The termination letter was clearly a retailitory act,
and a huge abuse of power without the vote of the membership
without notification of the membership., Without knowlegde of the membership.

I would put up the letter of termination for all to read at the club's bullentin board,
they would tear it down to hide thier shamful acts.

Findings of the court...torn down

club rules...torn down

All this documentation created not by me, but the club itself.

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

John,
You are obviously upset by your former club, and have seperated from them. You have told of their transcretions, and given your side of the story. Why not let it go? What is it you are trying to prove now? You had your day in court, or so it has been alluded to, and on appeal the club prevailed. There is not a lot to gain here. All of us know that the AMA is not going to formulate a set of dedicated bylaws that each club will have to abide by, it is simply not going to happen. I am only saying this, and I am sure I will catch flak for it, but there is nothing to gain here. This continued action is going to hurt your new club and your reputation as much as it will hurt the club you left.
Tommy

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

The club did not prevail....

The findings were as follows

The club owes me no money.....
The board was found to have acted in bad faith.....
The club owes me no money.

I AM STILL AN INACTIVE MEMBER OF THE CLUB UNTIL DECIDED OTHERWISE BY A COURT.

They sent an email to my current club complaining about the stuff on RCU,
..they had a good laugh..I had a good laugh.

As far as letting it go.....

.David............... LOCK THE THREAD>>DO NOT REMOVE IT FROM VIEW>

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

That sort of contradicts what as been said on this thread, and the numerous others, does it not. What was the lawsuit about, if not for the money? and why did they need to appeal it? AND begs to ask, what do you want and expect to gain from this?
I know neither you, nor their club, but from the posts you have made, it has always been evident which club you are talking about, so to an outsider, it does look like you are calling them out.
Of course that is just my opinion, and it does not mean anything.
Tommy

Tommy_Gun

Well since you brought it up. Here is the email I sent independent of the SAM's.
If I understand what you are saying at this time, the membership and Board of Directors of the Woodland/Davis Aeromodelers are backing you on your persistent attacks on the SAM's. Is that the case?


Hi,
I was one of the many RC fliers that had a blast at last years Wings of Victory. My Hangar 9 P-47 was pictured in an inverted pass in the Sacramento Bee from the flying on Saturday. It was a very nice fly-in and all the people I met were gracious and fun to talk planes with. I hope this email does not make me unwelcome in the future.

The reason I am contacting you is to inform you of the behavior of your clubs Safety Officer.
Are you aware that he starts threads on the RC Universe forums for the sole purpose of slamming the Sacramento Area Modelers?
I am not yet a member of that club, but soon will be. Right now my only membership is with Amador County's Gold Country Flyers.
I am not asking you to do anything about it. I just thought that as Board Members you might be interested in his postings.
As things go, the moderators typically delete his threads. But it is still a kind of "black eye" on our hobby in the Sacramento Valley area. Thanks,
Tom

JUGFLIER

This is totally wonderful. A person, in totally classless style, spreading his persecution of an individual to another club. He confesses he is not a member of the former club. What is his interest? Well read the posts by him in the pylon racing section of this site. It is apparent his position is framed totally by personal selfish interests. Tommy, you and sams deserve each other, you are cut from the same cloth. Where i come from you face a man, you don't go behind his back. Since you are not a member of sams, then it seems you are NOT in a position to deny John's posts. What does that make you?

Tommy_Gun

I'll tell you what it makes me.

It makes me an individual that is tired of seeing nice folks that I consider friends getting slammed indiscriminately.

If the actions I took are without what you call "class" then I don't want to be "classy"

"person selfish interests" ??!?! ***!?!?!

You are so far disconnected with anything to do with the RC clubs in this area I can't believe how easily you pass judgement on folks.
I LIVE and FLY in the area in question and TALK first person to many of the parties involved. You are getting all your info thru the internet. Hmmmm, I wonder whats more accurate.......

And as long as you are giving advice on how to be a "man" why not pass it on to your friend Mr. Casey and suggest his constant veiled attacks against the SAM's are bad form.

And yes if you read postings by me in the Pylon forums you will see I've done nothing more than post reports with video sometimes about the FUN we are having while racing and flying with the SAM's. It is your "virtual pal" that comes into those threads to spew crap about the SAM's.

Oh and by the way, I'm sooo very deeply hurt by your looowwwwly opinion of me. Really I am.

JUGFLIER

Lets see what your buddy john's crazy has admitted to.
1. John Casey was expelled by a vote of the board without membership notification or approval.
2. Two other members, one a founding member were also expelled in same fashion.
3. Prior to this, SAMs has never expelled members.
4. These expulsions were not taken by vote or notice of the club prior.
5.He admitted to the vote by the club membership to extend the runway.
6. He stated the board decided it wasn't worth persuing.
7. He stated that the obstacle to the extension was an environmental study that the board decided it didnt want to spend the money on.
8.He affirmed that the application was never forwarded to the government entity for approval.

Other points made by John Casey not refuted.
1. The board purchased insurance for themselves, against a vote of the club.
2. A member of the board resigned after being caught having shot down another persons aircraft intentionally.
3. SAMs field was shut down by AMA on account of this act.
4. That member was not expelled by the board.
5. Three times the board tried to raise dues, three times defeated by the membership.
6. His car was keyed at the field.
7. He was threatened by club members.
8. The club newsletter was pulled from the website after it was brought to our attention by John C.
9. ect.

Hey Tommy, I'd say i know more than you do.

Teachu2

My Feedback: (133)

Hey - here's the solution! We'll post a poll, and tell the SAMs we have 17,583 votes to restore John Casey to full member status. That ought to work! They supposedly don't listen to their own members....why would they give a rat's behind what goes on here in the vast electronic virtual reality Internet?

John Casey - what do you want? If the membership of SAM was on your side, THEY'D FIX IT. The Board cannot govern without the consent of the governed. After the way you've been treated, why would you want to go back? And if you don't want to go back, then the club continuing to have the Board remain is not your business! The membership has spoken - even if by silence. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but regurgitating it doesn't improve the taste.

BUTCHIEBOY

[quote]The membership has spoken - even if by silence.

I have been watching all of these threads with fascination and wondering when someone would come up with the real proof that this club does not want this individual back. BOOM, Teachu2 hits it finally right on the head with the above quote!!! Pretty obvious to me no matter what happened, the membership of this club wants nothing to do with John and his perpetual whining. Nice to see Teachu2 narrow the argument down to its most basic factor. Good job Teachu2