STL,
I do see your point, I think. You believe that bringing more people into the sport thru the E-ticket, may develop the ranks in the future of the rest of the current AMA crowd. I believe that you think there are droves of people out there who are waiting on this E-ticket and will flood the AMA with applications for it. Though I have become a cynic in my old age, I have my doubts that there will be a big influx of people to the AMA because of it. I tend to beleive, like many others, that the rest will be sacrificed in the attempt to gain a few, who more than likely will not stay for very long on any accounts. I will be the first to say, I could very well be dead wrong. I see the majority of the E-pilots like what they have, the freedom to go out at an economical price and fly in a schoolyard, or a park, without the constraints of freedom that they believe they would lose in a club atmosphere. They want to do what they to do, as cheaply as possible, when they want to do it. There is nothing wrong with that, but that attitude is not the kind of attitude that will lovingly seek out an organization to give $30 a year to for something that they already have. And most do not see the need for liability insurance.
Secondly if the AMA adopts a strategy to go around building electric flying fields, are they also going to do the same for the glow/gas crowd? Last I heard the "national Flying site" in Muncie was availbe for all members, so electrics are welcome there as well. They will probably get as much use out of it as I do down here in Alabama.
If DB wants it to happen, it will happen, but I think there is more to it than you want to believe. I beleive there are those in the AMA who see some of the things that I have said. They don't believe this is the saving grace for the AMA, and may beleive that it could force their hands needlessly. What would make more since is to create a seperate organization, within the AMA, for the E-ticket. Keep it seperate, including the insurance, but make it easy for people who want to migrate from the limited tocket, to the "full ride" so to speak. Don't intermesh the two to begin with, until you see how it plays out.
Tommy

Sorry Ulmer but you are wrong about that. The manufacturers did not take their risk on developing these planes until they knew the Sport ticket was on the horizon. The certification process for Sporty's WAS ADDED to give more pilots an option to fly, THEN after that happened then the manufacturers took their risks knowing that the FAA approved the cert for this special class of new pilots. People don't invest until you have a bearable market, especially airplane makers.

Either way everyone I know in the EAA FAA and any other pilots association LOVES the idea of welcoming these new pilots in and back to the joy of flying. It opens up a lot of windows, espcially for people who could not afford to fly or had medical issues. As far as tiers for seperation, I just have to disagree with you 100%. I know the AMA wants to do it, otherwise they would have sidelined it. But they know they have too and not by choice, because you have to follow your market, plain and simple. It costs money to run the AMA, plain and simple.

Quote from EAA site...Sport pilot solves the time/money issue by creating a basic, entry level pilot certificate that is not bogged down with training people for things they may never use while not jeopardizing safety. Now just replace Sport pilot with e-ticket. Keyword ... safety. You guys want safety, but not a means to it. The e-ticket is that means to creating some kind of organization and safety with an audience that we don't have. Having a program which caters to them will give them a SENSE OF BELONGING!

E-Fields already in place? Really? Maybe in the sticks, but not in urban regions. Why don't you want to give them a chance to enjoy this hobby with the same privliages you get from the AMA with a program WHICH SUITS THEIR NEEDS? They are good people, I assure you.

As to the FAA sport ticket, I do not see how that really pertains to the AMA, since they are not issuing a permit or a ticket to fly, anyone can do that. Transition at your own pace has always been the norm. That is why there are those flying trainers, and those flying multiengine warbirds. The costs of operating the business (the AMA) is the same for all of those, and most of the insurance documents I have see show most accidents are being caused by the typical sport flier (this is not an argument I want to get in, though I know where it will go). In the insurance business do you think they would offer a new sport pilot a cheaper rate on his craft, than they would a pilot with 1000 hours with the same aircraft. Experience will create value when it comes time for insurance quotes, I know that for a fact. Also past history, accident rates, rating type, etc all play a part in the insurance game. The problem that I see, is that the AMA is not the FAA, they do not issue a license to fly R/C. They are acting as the EAA in the fact that they are providing representation, while at the same time offering liability insurance (like AFLAC). They cannot be everything to everybody.
Tommy

OK, good points. The FAA is not the AMA or the EAA. However the AMA could only wish to be like the EAA, you've been to KOSH, you've seen what they have and how they work. Last time I checked I even saw and AMA booth at KOSH, never saw an EAA booth at Toledo.

Regardless, take away the insurance, take away the price and the magazine. Let's just talk about organization because that's exactly what holds the EAA togehter. What do we do about organizing these rogue pilots in these parks. Some dumb accident in a park with no control, not only will it effect the park, but perhaps it may effect the entire town, county or even state. Whose going to help? What organization is going to represent that person. Better off if there was a small group of flyers who were already represented in the first place, representation, rules and guidelines would already be in place.

I guess I am sort of a unionist, if that is the proper word. Our history is that everyone, no matter what they flew, was treated the same in the AMA. I realize this is not completely true anymore with turbines and giant scale, etc. However, I really don't like the idea of creating two (or three, or four, . . .) kinds of membership. It seems to me that one kind or another is going to be seen as second class. Look at the opinions given on this forum on junior age memberships (which I can live with).

What does the AMA have that the parkflier person wants? Has anyone really considered this? Until the AMA figures that out, and then sells it to parkfliers, they are not going to come surging in here. I kind of doubt that it is a cheap restricted membership in some organization they never heard of.

Uhh, the market is already there for parkfliers, so are the airplanes... so what exactly am I wrong about?

Jim, you hit the nail on the head. The AMA doesn't have anything to offer those folks. A discount on something you don't care about or want isn't going to reel you in. The only people I've heard howling for this program are already members and just want a discount. STL's motive is a mystery. But so is 99% of what he says. I have yet to figure out how he came to the conclusion that the FAA is a pilot's association...

STL, your analogies are so far off base and just plain wrong that it's not even necessary to respond to most of it. Unless you want a certification before flying e-powered airplanes? I'd say you need one before buying e-components, but not to fly it. What exactly is the difference between your e-field and the electric clubs that are already in place? Like I said, the process is already in place. All you gotta do is start one. Why you are pushing for a discount that will create enmity between followers of different disciplines?

Well Jim I've always respected your opinions however one thing for sure doing something is better then doing nothing. The AMA will never capture the e-flyers at $58 because it's value is based to support an audience that the parkflyers are not. Wouldn't doing something be better then doing nothing? Here is a question of the day ... what is the alternative solution capturing this audience which the AMA obviously wants a piece of? No matter how you put it together it will always look something like the e-ticket, if you want to use common sense.

Ptulmer, we debated enough on this issue, so we'll leave it at that. But the AMA has not closed the door on the issue and I predict an e-ticket sometime in the future, it makes too much sense. I do find it surprising that you think I have a motive to support something introduced by the AMA.

The only thing keeping the tiered system away is how it will be enforced. Many clubs have commented to AMA on how to difficult/impossible it would for them to enforce different levels of insurance.
Of course, STLpilot seems not to have a problem with the enforcement, as it's very simple according to a post several months ago on the same subject, i.e., just have someone at the field check the cards. How simple can it be?
As far as his urban flier argument, I live in an urban area, in fact, I work on the other side of Teterboro, and yet I seem to be able to find places to fly, wonder why all the urban PF's have such a hard time. Seems to me that thet're looking for a free ride regarding AMA and club membership.
Gee, I wonder why people join the EAA, I guess it's for the same reason that people join AMA, since he's always comparing the two.
His statement that the pilot community is an all welcoming group is BS. The taildraggers look down on nose draggers, commercials think they better than private pilots, etc. Of course this doesn't apply to everyone, but there's plenty of this type of thing going on, contrary to what he says.
Oh, by the way STL, how's your e-flier group coming along that you said, about 6-8 months ago, you would establish if AMA did not institute the e-flier program? All those fliers for the taking, is how I believe you phrased it.
Jon

The e-ticket did not mention integration to other clubs, it was so park flyers could establish their own clubs. However seems like jet waivers seem to be working ok at some clubs? Is it really rocket science to establish 2 different colored cards if they did insitute the e-ticket to integrate into regular clubs? Ask a jet pilot how hard it is.

Well it doesn't look like the AMA sidelined the idea, thus the thread and re-introduction to the discussion.

BTW, If you are around this summer come on over to TEB at the NJAHOF, great aviation camp there this summer.

I can only answer for myself. I joined the AMA because I liked the organization and wanted to support their continued efforts. I am a park flyer and would have certainly joined on a park flyer/e-ticket if one existed. Why? Well, simply the introductory 3 month program would have run out before I had a chance to really experience what I wanted to. That aside, I would have paid full dues for an AMA Park Flyer/e-flyer membership because I would have felt my voice was heard. I don't want to take away from anyone, nor do I feel like I would be hanging on anyone's coat tails if I received less services for a reduced fee. I don't see this as any different than buying a car. More money, more options.

IMO, this is being looked at completely the wrong way. There should not be a tiered structure based solely on power plant. The structure should be looked at from the top down. An example:
1. AMA unlimited membership - full price
2. sport e/glow/gas/silent flyers stamp (no competition) - less price (than full)
3. Competition waiver...($$per event for sport flyer holder)
4. Individual "sport stamps" ($$ fee per stamp)

So IF I fly sport electric, I'd pay a certain due. If I wanted to add a Glider stamp, I'd add an extra few bucks (still less than unlimited membership), same for Sport gas and Sport glow.
Basically like a hunting license, if you follow. Where Unlimited would be less than the cost of each part individually. A Competition waiver would be like a "doe tag" for the sport card holders and Included in Unlimited membership at no charge.

Lifetime members would be lifetime Unlimited. PERIOD!

My $0.02

Greg S

Zackly. Who would be the ones upset anyway? Would the full members frown on the e-flyers? Why woud they, they are king of the hill. Would the e-flyers frown on the full members? Why would they, for one thing they are getting their own options and price point. Doesn't make any sense for anyone to frown up or down at anyone. What are we 2 year olds?

Regardless on how they do it, they should do something and it looks like a proposal is coming by April, that would be cool. I think it's just as important to identify who they are, so they can get a feeling of belonging with services provdied at a price point they are comfortable with. Then everyone becomes a winner.

Right, and if intelligently designed, ALL could choose with minimum heartache administratively.

Greg S

STL, if that's your way of telling me to go away, forget it. I choose to stay and debate. You want to stop debating it, you are free to leave the discussion. I think you have a motive because you preach and preach and try to destroy anyone who opposes you by following them through the forum. So, yes. I do believe you have a motive.

Doesn't make sense for you to make stupid, bigoted jokes based on geography, but you have done that right here in this forum. And this is exactly why I oppose it. As pointed out by F106A, it seems to be human nature. This wouldn't be the first step down the wrong road, but it would almost certainly be close to the last. It is high time to lay the blame where it really belongs. Here it goes.

AMA, you have done a poor job of marketing yourself. The only reason I am a current member is for the insurance. It's required at my field. If that changes, but you haven't, say goodbye to my $58 a year. I could care less about funding competitions and national flying sites. I could care less about your education programs. That can and should be done in the private sector by people like STL than figured out how to make a profit from it. The list is pretty long. I'll stop here.

Parkfliers, it is your fault that you haven't joined and formed e-clubs. Why would you do that you ask? See the previous statement.

No, STL. There are NOT droves of people standing in line to join the AMA, but won't because $58 is just twenty too much. The idea is ridiculous and anyone in the AMA who supports such a notion is being extremely shortsighted. How's the old saying go? It's like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

What does not need to be lost in this discussion is the future of model aviation. When it comes to gas or glo that kind of engine technology has pretty much reached its zenith. The rc hobby is as much a technology driven hobby as anything. When i was a small child my dad had to build his own radio system just to fly. Heathkit and Kraft radios were the norm. Rc flying was a novelty because most people could not build a transmitter and reciever from a kit. Today electrics are developing at an astonishing rate, lipo batteries and brushless motors. New technological advances always change the status quo. In 1945 at the end of a world war the US Amy had to make a decision, stick with the technology that won the war i. e. piston engine fighters, or embrace the new technology. The early jets were disappointing. In 1950, in Korea we faced the Mig. The only reason that that we had the answer for it because some one saw the need to change the status quo and embrace the future. I do not fly electrics.

We are at the same kind of point in the history of rc. In 25 years from now when possibly we face a steady declining membership because technology allows portability, we will face much higher dues and insurance due to a smaller pool of people. The AMA members of tomorow will most likely not only be flying electrics, but will most likely have been introduced to this hobby thru electrics. People its time to get off your high horses. What will these people do in 25 years when we try to get them because WE NEED THEM? They will tell us to blow, because we have let our opportunity pass by. If you don't believe in the need to bring these people into the fold, you need help. I remember a few years ago when newbies showed up at the field with arfs. They were not considered true modelers because they didn't build their planes. Now you are considered strange if you build. Afs dominate our hobby, you can't even sell a kit at a swap meet anymore.


Curtis Scofield
AMA# 767441

Jug, are you operating under the premise that our hobby is only R/C? You seem to be operating on the mistaken premise that new equals superior. The one observation that I can make after seeing many threads like this is that the people with superiority complexes are the electric fliers who demand their own version of the AMA. Not something you see from the gentlemen that participate in control line, free flight, or your regular Joe at the field.

BTW, I don't think that 25 years from now that glow will have disappeared, nor do I believe that IC technology is static. There are new IC engines every day and there is much more that can be done as it gets cheaper and new techniques enter the mainstream.

You and i don't disagree maybe as much as you think in some aeas. There is no question that rc dominates our hobby. 35 years ago my dad took planes designed for control line and converted them to rc. Things change. I don't think the electric flyes are demanding anything. they are voting with their feet. Frankly as it stands the AMA offers them very little for their money. This is about our recognition that we are going to need them. No i don't think glo flying will disappear, yes there will be new engine developments, the point is the flyers of the future will fly electric and will be introduced to this hobby thru electrics.

This is a reply in general...no one in particular.

I fail to understand why anyone feels we need to do anything at all about parkflyers. If you want, go fly with them sometimes...maybe invite them to fly at your friendly club field sometime. Quite worrying... be happy...fly and share the hobby/sport regardless of AMA or whatever. In the end the hobby will be stronger and so will the AMA, especially if we can just learn to drop the doomsday, sky is falling BS scenarios that is often used to justify our attempts to bring them into the fold.

We are often our own worst enemies…take a deep breath and repeat to yourself…every thing is ok…every thing will be just fine.

:::sigh:::

ptulmer,
Would you be opposed to paying say $40 for an AMA membership to fly your planes with no restrictions and an additional $3.50 per competition should you want to try competition before you committed? (just pulling numbers outta my tushy)

Every other organization I have belonged to had levels of participation and I do not think it is a bad idea for AMA to follow as well.

I ponied up the $58 to join, so that's not my issue. The issue seems to be an "all or nothing" mentality. I just fail to see where looking at and discussing ways to ADD to the experience is a bad thing. I guess that's my fault.

Greg S
(edit-goofed my bbcode)

KC, what you are talking about isn't a tiered membership like is under consideration. To tell the truth, I haven't thought about. On the surface it doesn't seem like a bad idea. But, I doubt you'd get it on the agenda. It would cost more to administer and would result in a lower income level for the AMA.

My fault, I misunderstood. I'm with you now.
In my earlier post I was trying to say I think they are going about this the wrong way and I agree with you that the current approach doesn't sit well with me and offering my thoughts on constructively accomplishing a similar outcome.

Greg S

Everything is ok.....everything is ok..... everything is ok.......lol

ROTFLMAO!

Greg S

KingCrash, you said it doesn't sit well with you and that is the premise of my arguement. What kind of kneejerk reaction is going to happen when the non-political 99% gets hit with the news that there is a new, less expensive AMA for electric fliers? We've already been told by Dave Brown and many others that we are all big jerks that hate parkfliers. Even though it's not true, it's repeated as the gospel. Over and over I see the same theme coming up in Model Aviation. What is going to be the last straw? You can't take one or two circumstances (which prove that elitism is human nature) and base your policy on that. An instance of bad blood between clubs and parkfliers would be the exception, not the rule.

Yep...the tiered system would be the best tool I can image to perpetuate the ever greater divisiveness that will ultimately propel the AMA to the inevitable conclusion at warp speed...great idea!

ptulmer, Let me say that many of the points i have offered are for discussion and in no way do i say they are right or that AMA needs to follow them to the letter. Anything AMA does to try to woo these people into our way of flying i think is a good thing and support as long as the AMA does not give away the farm. I believe we have to take a long term view of this issue as much as a short term. Any action that would divide or ailienate the current membership is a mistake. I actually am not familiar with "the tiered system" that some of you talk about. I know the post by STL in reference to Joyce H. was a revolutionary approach. As in such cases it does upset the status quo, there fore has to be implemented carefully. We may never get all of those proposals, maybe none. But at least we are having this discussion and AMA is also, which is a good thing.