does anyone think itis possible to get the ama to increase the weight limitation to around 65 pounds? If not, what would be involved in getting independent insurance for a jet event?
ama doesent seem to be keeping intouch with the adbances of the jet guys. is it true that you must own a sig cadet to be on the board? (joking)

I didn't know jets were getting that big! But based on the prop planes flying in Europe, an increase may be warranted. Of course, not everyones field can safely handle the bigger craft, but they may try anyway... Might need to include minimum field specs with an increase.

Go to the AMA site. Choose "About AMA", Choose "What's New", choose "News from AMA archives", look for an article called "Revised Experimental Aircraft Regulations".

The limit is 100 pounds, but, jets are excluded.

Contact Frank Tiano about the insurance. He has some experience with outside insurance. I think he runs a couple small non-AMA sanctioned events somewhere. Maybe even involves a jet or two.

The e-mail address I have for Frank is [email protected]. I think it is current.

JR

I am sure Frank can speak for himself (!) but I was not aware that he ran private insurance for any of these events?

I know that Jerry Caudle did at Superman about 3 years ago, after the fact he said the policy had so many riders that he doubted we would have been covered for anything had something happened.


And as for the jets getting bigger, I have seen 2 guys get told they could not fly, and there are a few kits on the market that I think could not be built under the limit.

This is a reply to a question I asked about the 55 Lb weight limit. Just for everyone's info. Carl Maroney is the man to talk to.


The rules regarding 55 pounds goes back to the 1994 AMA Safety Code. I have not had time to do any research. The 55 lbs was developed with the IMAA Special Interest Origination.

Carl P. Maroney
[email protected]
765.287.1256 X250
AMA HQ
5161 E Memorial Dr
Muncie, IN 47302
Website: http://www.modelaircraft.org

549 AMA Experimental Radio Control Aircraft Program Requirements and Instructor Information

531 Permit to Fly Experimental Aircraft over 55 lbs

532 Experimental Radio Controlled Aircraft Inspector List


Maybe its time they revisited the issue

Vince AMA 7051

Once you have aquired your independent Ins,,, Are you still going to have to ask the CD for permission to fly at an AMA Sanctioned Event?

Will AMA allow this type of Big Aircraft to operate at Sanctioned AMA Events for Jets???

I wonder what his answer will be???


BV

The experimental class prohibits their use in competition.

On the other hand, the TOC was insured outside the AMA and the planes had no weight limits. However.... It was not an AMA sanctioned contest. There is no law that says every contest must be sanctioned by the AMA. Of course, AMA insurance would not cover anyone (spectator, member, club, or landowner, etc.) in such a situation.

Simply put, the CD at an AMA sanctioned event does not have the authority to allow them to fly in competition. You really have to read the docs to appreciate the restrictions on these birds.

At this point in time there are nine pilots with certifications for their experimental aircraft.

What are you planning on hanging below the wing. It might be more relistic to by full scale. Insurance could be about 2 Grand a year or more and would not have to mess with AMA.

Surely there would be some kind of change in the insurance rates if the standard weight was insreased, good God look at the *****ing and Complaining some members do becasue part of thier dues support the Competition side of AMA, They would blow and "O" ring if they had support the Experimental Aircraft.

perhaps the fees shouldnt be the same across the board. I for one would have no problem paying a higher fee for insurance to cover the type of plane i actually want to fly at ama events.

a plane traveling at 150 mph at 15 pounds impacting your head would make you no less dead then a plane at twice the weight, just uglier in your coffin. im wondering how the guys get insurance for thier land speed runs on the salt flats. many participants are self financed and unsponsored.

a plane traveling at 150 mph at 15 pounds impacting your head would make you no less dead then a plane at twice the weight

The difference may be that a 15 pound plane may kill or hurt 1-6 people and a 100 pound plane may kill or hurt a dozen or more, Lets face it, if it were a Piper Cub that hit the World Trade Center , it would still be standing although it wasn't just the impact that brought it down, the impact alone probably killed many people , a Piper Cub would probably just bounced off or got stuck on the side causing considerably less damage.

The sliding scale for insurance opens a whole another can of worms, and a butt load of additional work , If the big planes should cost more , them the small slow flyers should be less, and rubber power almost nothing, Then We would have to constantly up date our change in interest, You would probably have to register every plane you own build and buy so the AMA can keep everyone honest.

I am up for any Ideas, But so far none have fit the bill any better than what we already have.

The Fact is we are talking about potential Liability, an eye poked out by a Park flyer will cost us as much as an eye poked out by a glow engine, but getting sued by 1 to say 6 people is less costly than 12 or more.

Two weed whackers twin tail unknown pay load . Where does it end. There has to be a limit! If you want full scale go for it , Don't screw around.

not sure the question was what you thought the limit should be.

Wow! 55 pounds. Thats ALOT.

the one thing i hate abt the 55 lb limit is that they dont allow the waivered planes to compete. now they changed the rules to allow them to fly more often but why not let them fly in competitions to me thats crazy you can fly them anywhere you want but cant compete with them at least put a 65 lb limit on the waivered planes for competition. lets come out of the dark ages. years ago the equipment wasnt made for them now it is common to see the bigger planes and more and more people going to them so why cant the AMA grow with the changing times heck the soak us enough in dues to line their pet projects.

Joe

How bout making the limit larger, but charge an insurance premium for larger aircraft?

Just a thought!

I dont think the premiums have anything to do with the weight limits. Right now I guarantee we are paying more for the insurance than AMA is actually charged it is just a way for them to get a little extra cash by saying the premiums have jumped. I am an insurance agent and can tell you that they pay group rates and with the small but growing number of people flying larger planes at this time do not affect the insurance. What it is is that you have these people at headquarters that just arent into larger planes and so havent got a clue to the extent the larger plane movement is growing. Most of the people at HQ are just plain lazy and uncareing of anyone in a "small subgroup" heck take a look at that crappy mag they put out almost everything in there is small crap it is very seldom you see anything bigger than a .60-.90 size plane unless it is a large IMAC plane. My opinion is they are thinking if the imac guys can build a 40% scale plane for under 55 lb limit the scale guys can too thats like comparing apples to oranges.

Joe

If the AMA were to keep up with the changing times they would make the limit smaller. I don't see near the number of large planes anymore. In fact last several times at my club I didn't see one gasser or anything larger than a 1.2 glow size.

I dunno I see more and more larger planes being built all the time. I average 3 to 400 emails a day asking various questions for construction etc and a good 1/5th of them is asking abt enlarging plans etc. even major designers like roy vaillencourt are enlarging their designs to 1/4 scale because of all the demands he gets which I know for a fact as i talk to roy all the time and am doing cad work for him to enlarge them. I get emails all the time asking me if i could blow the ziroli corsair, dauntless, and hellcat up 150% for people. It isnt shrinking but growing. The reason you dont see it is because of the AMA's stupid rules saying they cant compete or do other events. They finally made it so you can fly your larger plane more often at your local club but have as of yet made it to where you can take them to any events to fly. Most of the guys build them and fly them at their home fields or other clubs that will allow them to bring their planes. Right now you might say it is an underground type thing everyone sees people doing them and flying them but since you cant according to AMA fly them or compete with them at events its just a few clubs that have nice events and large events say hell with the rules. but believe me there are a lot more than you think and as soon as ama ever adresses the problem you will see they fly out of the closets. most dont even waiver them anymore they just fly at clubs that allow them or fly their large planes off their own property or the local state park property. they are flying and there are ways around the rules but if the AMA is worried for some reason abt large planes then maybe they need to wake up and think on increasing the limits which will bring more of these large planes under their guidelines. as it stands now there will one day be some kid build one thats not ready for it and hurt someone because he flew it somewhere other than a sanctioned field where there are people there to help out. so it is 2 fold it is a growing trend just barely under the surface that needs adressed and if it isnt adressed it will cause major problems sooner or later.

Joe

I doubt you can judge growth of large planes by the number of E-Mails. If it is growing so much, why have I never seen a model larger than about 40 pounds? Why is it that I used to see a half a dozen large planes on a busy weekend yet now I see 1 or none? Even on days where I have to wait for a table! I don't see many buyers in the classified's either.

The article by Dave Brown in the July issue of MA makes the point that the first $250,000 of each claim is self insured. The commercial policy only covers amounts in excess of that.

The AMA has addressed larger planes. The approach, in my opinion, is the correct one. Initially, require waivers on them. Get some information that will allow the risks to be determined. IF the larger planes are safe, and IF they are not too high a risk, then modify the current requirements for larger planes. Keeping these planes out of competition where more spectators are at risk would seem to be a prudent thing to do in the initial stages of gathering information. When virtually everything larger than 1/4 scale has the admonition to not fly downlines under power, in the current kit offerings, one has to wonder about the structural integrity of larger planes. Until some definitive information is accumulated, its seems fool hearty to just say "go ahead, do as you please".

The jet waivers are serving much the same function now. Even with the requirement that pilots get special skill training before flying jets, some accidents are still happening that could create expensive claims. As information is collected, a loss prevention program can be put in place. A recent crash on landing approach into the pits, at a large jet rally (where no one was hurt, fortunately) is the perfect example. Maybe the answers are simple, i.e. more separation required between the runway and the pits for jets. Accumulating the information will tell the tale.

These waivers are not going to stop the growth, but, they will slow it and allow modifications to the areas of risk before the AMA allows everyone to jump in with both feet.

JR

The problem JR is that there have been large planes around for years and they are just dragging their feet doing absolutely nothing. if you believe the drivel dave brown and them put out thats fine. to me they are just saying a word or two here or there to make it look like they are doing something they give no facts or figures they just say hey were looking into it. Look at the UK and other european countries they have a sorta waiver system where you have to have your plane looked over by 3 other people as you build it to make sure it is structurally sound and other stuff then once it passes then you fly it like any other plane and if i am correct once a year it has to be looked over again. If the AMA waivers a plane it has to be inspected and also you have to fly it to prove it is airworthy and you can handle it. Like any plane big or small there will always be some accident that will happen. But if you or a vehicle gets hit by say a 40% carden edge which is in the under 55 lb limit or a 1/5th scale warbird or a 70 lb plane it will do the same amount of damage. it is a bunch of stuck up old farts that refuse to change and grow with the times pure and simple but yet they want to increase our dues by 5 or 10 bucks every year.

Joe

Joe

Talking about comparing apples to oranges....

When you talk about competing in scale with larger planes, it is one thing. Putting a hundred pound ARF into the hands of anyone that can afford it is quite another. I am not sure where you took your physics, but, mine say that F=ma. Assuming the same acceleration, the plane with the larger mass is going to have more force and thereby do more damage. It is that simple. The heavier plane is going to strike with 27 percent more force.. 27 percent. The difference between a 55 pound plane going into a crowd of spectators and a 70 pound one may wind up being measured in the number of lives taken. Where do you stop? 70 pounds, 90 pounds, 150, 500, 1000? Most of us have seen the 100 % cub some guy built. Sorry, there has to be a limit somewhere in the interest of safety.

Comparing the issue to the way the Europeans do it is, again, apples and oranges. The tort system in the European countries is different than the one in the US. As an insurance agent, you must know that the attorneys here make a large difference in the way things must be done, especially when it comes to insurance.

I am not sure what your beef with Dave Brown is, but, I am certain that the AMA does self insure. No one said they are going to look into it.... it is a fact.

The Executive Council is made up of individuals that were elected to serve with no compensation. These guys all have different personalities and on most subject can't agree without substantial deliberation and compromise. Where did you get your impression of them from? Have you ever taken the time to meet them in person or call them or even e-mail them? They do respond.

If you don't like the AMA President, or your VP, support someone to run against him, or do it yourself.

JR

Its easy to make sweeping generalizations about anyone or anything for that matter. Calling people names, demonstrates your own short comings with interpersonal communications and problem solving in general. "Your Either Part of The Problem or Part of the Cure". Right now your the problem. Put forth the effort at communications and you will do better, and have a more positive response to your efforts. Right now you just sound like the typical negative AMA whiner, their not doing what I like type. Want some cheese with that whine?

Vince

Well guys as a matter of fact i had been championing this for 3 years now and you no what have not gotten 1 email back and i had emailed in a professional manner in professional letter format. thats one reason i get mad at them that after probably 50 emails and letters mailed off in 3 years not 1 letter sent back in reply that either A we are looking into it or B it wont be done because of 1,2, or 3. Now believe it or not I dont even have a plane at that limit yet but there are some nice warbird kits and plans from the UK in 1/3 scale that would be just over the limit and something I would like to compete with. Even if they increased to 65 lbs it would be enough for a lot of people whose planes come in at 58 or 60 with full fuel.

As for my math skills it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that a large plane no matter if it at 55 lbs or 70 lbs into a crowd will pretty much do the same amount of damage. sure a heavier plane will have more force but a 32" prop vs a 34" prop will do the same amount of damage as will a 11 ft ws vs a 13 ft yea you have 2 feet to get away but all the weight in the plane is usually in the fuse and a spinning prop will chop up the same amount.

Now I do agree there should be a limit and for the same reasons a big plane in crowded places but a plane doesnt have to be huge to be heavy. a 1/5th scale warbird will naturally weigh more than say a 40% IMAC plane or would be close to the same. I think the very top and a lot of people I have had discussions with trying to organize a group to petition for changes feel 65 lbs with fuel should be the max for competitions or other events and those that are larger be like they are now for midday demos etc.

I have no personal beef with Dave other than the fact i have never gotten any type of acknowledgement that he has even looked into the matter or that he or any of his staff had not even had the courtesy to reply to one of them.

The other fact is the insurance jumping to 58 bucks is rediculous. It seems to me they do the increase to fund all these things they want to build that most of us will never see or use. whats wrong with the old buildings sell them to fund these things or ask for donationions or fund raisers dont force the membership to pay for stuff they dont use. and offer a membership for those of use that use the mag to start fires with to burn trash heck cut 15 or 20 a year off the dues for those not wanting it. they probably wouldnt be able to afford to keep it up due to lack of interest.

Basically i get ticked off that this is a hobby and should be enjoyable for everyone and it all seems to be a beurocracy and political catering to only certain groups. how often do you see info in the mag for giant scale or warbirds or scale stuff other than an itty bitty article here or there it seems the AMA only cares about the barf and funfly or aerobatics crowd and neglects the other subgroups.

Joe