Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Gordon,

Please don't be too offended, but I'm afraid your view doesn't address reality. Sure, you just want to fly, but it's not that simple, and you know it.

That club field you fly on didn't magically appear. A group got together at some time and decided they wanted a place to fly. They discovered that most landowners are understandably quite hesitant about allowing these noisy, child-maiming machines on their land. The AMA provided these guys with an easy and inexpensive means to prove that they were serious, and insured in case of the unthinkable. Dangling the AMA like a carrot in front of landowners finally convinced one of them to bite, and allow access to the club field you fly at.

You don't have a choice, as it was already made for you. However, you want to fly, so you now have a dilema. Can you live with yourself if you "compromise your principles," give up your "freedom of choice" and join the AMA for a few minutes of happiness? I can.

bpannier

If you want to know what the policy covers they will send you a copy of the policy and you can read it yourself I believe it is Gulf Insurance.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

mkirsch,

You are wrong, Gordon does have a choice! He can go out and purchase some property and start a club of his own! Then he can invite whoever he wants to come fly and assume the risk on his insurance!

I don't understand why people keep saying they don't have a choice!

Gordo-ProBro

I love this PLACE!

First, to DAN T - Please, please, please, don't ever say that!!! I didn't mean to connect my views with our club's! You will get me drawn and quartered! LOL! Would you mind editing that reference out?

Will be at the MEM day fly, loved it last year.

Please come over this spring, the dates for the funfly are on the web site. Our NEW FIELD will be ready, I hope! Your landing gear will like it!


mkirsch: You I like! Reality is a real good thing. Dan called it a "necessary evil (or whatever)" and we can agree on that! We could have an agrument then go flying!

The only dispute I would have with your post is that there is more we can do. First, this is good stuff, make noise and get the attention of the leadership and membership, as the "squeaky wheel gets the oil" (why do you think special interests run our country?) Second, participate on the local level. Despite what others spout, If we could insure our club through other than the AMA, we wouldn't miss anything! (IMO!) Noone here uses anything else! We work the land, literally, build the stuff that we need, teach the students, etc. That's the REAL hobby! Last, learn and VOTE in the national elections (sounds like a PBA for the whole country, huh?)

MARK - DITTO, but then we tend to agree.

P-51B - oh.

Gordon

changed

What do you guy's do, pick a thread and argue until you get tired of typing. I see the same names over and over again, why dont you start a thread called "pissing contest". Just my 2 cents worth.

Gordo-ProBro

Hey, that was good. I'm still laughing and I'm one of the guys your talking about. I like being bitten once in a while! :bananahea

Gordon

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

That's the thing. It's not exclusionary. There's nothing stopping non-AMA members from working out an agreement with the landowner under which they would provide their own insurance.

It would be really nice if they also worked out an agreement with the club that does all the work to maintain the site. I mean, would you like it if you spent tons of time and money to develop a facility on loaned/leased land for your personal use, only to have the landowner go over your head and tell other people that they can use the facility YOU worked so hard to develop?

"Preservation tactics." Give me a break...

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

if you spend dollars and time in developing "loaned property, ya get what ya deserve.
if you "signed" a lease that is soo loose as to allow the property owner to"go over yer head" you also get what ya deserve.
a proper lease will not allow the property owner to co lease or co use the property leased.

J_R

In this post you have turned the subject to sanctioned events. Keep that in mind. This response is to that issue alone.

As far as I know, there is no mention for any insurance in the sanctioning process.

What is required at an AMA sanctioned event is AMA membership.

Now, look at other groups that sanction competition. If you want to play on the PGA tour, must you be a member of the PGA? If you want to compete in NASCAR, must you be a member of NASCAR? The ABC (American Bowling Congress)? How many more can you name?

In the interest of promoting competition, the AMA has made it possible for the CD to process your AMA membership on the spot, so you will not be turned away.

If my memory serves me correctly, AMA membership was required at sanctioned events before the AMA ever provided insurance coverage as a benefit to it's membership.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

You'd win that bet. All you've got is a piece of paper that say's "Lloyds of London" on it. I as the hypothetical CD am not an insurance agent, and I have no idea what the legalese on that paper means. Furthermore, I don't have time to read through it and make sure it's valid and up to date. I can't take your word for it because I don't know you from Adam, and you could be lying, waving a worthless piece of paper you made up on your computer in front of my face. If you have an accident, it's my kiester on the line and I'm not willing to take that risk. There are 25 people in line behind you waiting to sign in, so produce an AMA card or move along please.

Tell me this; what would the point of "opening up the door to all modelers" be? The AMA is not a charity. The AMA not only wants you to fly, they want you to join. Anything less would be unbelievably idiotic.

Bottom line here is, the AMA provides a convenient and affordable means for sanctioning competition. Ask Frank Tiano (if he doesn't bite your head clean off for speaking in his presence) the hoops he had to jump through to insure his last jet meet. It certainly wasn't as simple as filling out a couple of short forms and sending in a $20 filing fee. The purpose of this hobby is to have as much fun as possible with as little adminstrivia as possible. The AMA does a great job of taking care of all that malarchy so we can get back to doing what we wanted to do in the first place.

J_R

littlecrankshaf

what you posted was "AMA event". The ONLY AMA events are sanctioned events. It may not have been what you meant, but, it was what you posted.

If you were allowed to fly in a sanctioned event, and were not a member of the AMA, it was simply a matter that the CD did not do his job.

JR

J_R

LOL. What in the heck is the "AMA scope"?

Now you are making it up as you go along. Show me something, anything, anywhere that says that.

Rhetoric does not pass for fact.

To carry this a little further, you try to cloud the seperation between the AMA and an AMA chartered club.

The AMA does not tell the AMA charted club how to conduct itself. That goes for everything from it's organization to it's policies about who may fly. The AMA neither tells the club that it must be democratic nor that only AMA members may fly at the club's field. Yes, there are requirements to become a chartered club, but they go to things like not allowing prejudice (in the traditional sense) and requiring all flying members of a charted club be AMA members. Whether a club choses to charter with the AMA is a decision made by the club.

If insurance is an issue, it is made an issue by the club. There are some very good reasons that most club's that have complete control of a field do not allow non-AMA members to fly there. They are based in good sense and self-preservation.

When you chose to say AMA and mean the national organization and the charted club interchangeably, that is flat wrong.

While we are at it, lets make the distinction about sanctioned events. CD's sanction an event through the AMA. The sanctioned event may or may not be affiliated with a club. The sanctioned event may or may not be flown at a club field. The CD is THE authority at any AMA sanctioned event.

JR

J_R

No

Just stating facts. You do know what facts are, don't you?

You might want to read the AMA 2003 club charter package on the AMA web site. It is full of facts that you might find informative. Who knows, you might find something about the "AMA scope".

JR

J_R

If you will go read the charter package carefully, you will know. If not..... I dunno, stay uninformed and misinformed, I guess

J_R

Mark

Your thinking runs diametrically opposed to mine. I want to see the AMA grow into a huge organization with real political clout. If the AMA had a million members, it would be much easier to walk into the powers that be and talk about things like cities suppling land for field use and frequencies, and everything in between. I wish the dues were lower so that it would be easier to grow the organization.

You want to splinter it, I want more members.

JR

Gordo-ProBro

Mark, you're wearin' out your keyboard!

By the way, you can nolonger drive on the roads in New York unless you have insurance through State Farm. And since Nevada requires that you carry 2 million $ liability for any facility open to persons other than immediate family, they have decided to sell said insurance and only recognize those policies they write.

PGA? no insurance. NASCAR? get your own insurance. ABC? Does anyone still bowl?

Gordon

Elwood

My Feedback: (2)

The question was "How many fliers are switching to UMA. I want to And was wondering if we can get some feedback, so I can talk to my club about it". Could we get back to that now?

Gordo-ProBro

Have we really drifted that far?

J_R

OK, I will try to address your question directly.
In the last 4 years, over 400 new clubs have charted with the AMA. These 400 decisions were made by groups of individuals wanting the best of all worlds for their new clubs.

Let's look at what United Modelers offers. Coverage for flyers and coverage for club officers simply because they are UMA members. If you buy a policy for the landlord, he is covered with their standard policy. It appears that trip and fall type accidents, which are 50% of the claims the AMA receives, against the clubs and landlord are not covered. I am NOT an expert on UMA, and although I have asked about this many times, no one has asserted that the club or landlord is covered.

What does the AMA offer? Coverage for members. Coverage for the entire club entity, including the officers. Coverage for the landlord that covers all liability caused by the members or club activities. This includes things like car accidents on his property that are club related. Things like trip and fall accidents.

If you look at the information in the AMA club charter renewal package on the AMA web site and you look at the information on the United Modeler site I think you will find that there is no comparison when it come to club or landlord coverage. Since many clubs have used this to "close the deal" with the landlord, it is highly unlikely that he would accept the substitute coverage alternately available.

In order to allow any of your club members to be UMA members only would require that you terminate your AMA club charter, under the terms of the AMA bylaws and your charter agreement.

Of course all the other benefits to the club, landlord and members by either organization are not discussed, since that was not your question.

I don't have a numerical answer for your question as to how many. My personal observation is none. I do not personally know of one person who has switched.

JR

dant-RCU

My Feedback: (3)

When I joined the UMA their first year, and I think I did that just to throw some support to a new organization as I have not renewed, it was my understanding that the insurance provision was primary but only related to members and officers when engaged in flying activities.

When our club directors looked at a the UMA as a possible alternative, we questioned insurance coverage for off-field activities (like mall shows). I had made an inquiry at that time and the answer was no since it was not a "flying activity". This was another reason we decided not to pursue. Things MAY have changed now.

There are three major malls in Tulsa that can support a mall show. Depending on the mall, they REQUIRE "event-specific" liability insurance for either 1.5 or 2 million dollars. This is available from the AMA and it is what we do to insure our mall shows. None of the malls here would accept any type of "umbrella" liability coverage for a group sponsored event. The policy had to be written specifically for the mall, event and date. No substitutes.

Based on this, I would say that any club considering becoming a UMA club only and have a need for "off site/activity" insurance check to see if the UMA now offers this option.

Dan

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

That 'only flying activities' exclusion seems to leave anyone using UMA for insurance still liable if a guest trips and breaks a bone at your flying field. I would be worried about that since around 50% of all AMA claims are of that nature, general liability not related to flying.

That last paragraph where the need for the 'manuscript policy' is what is killing us with cost. It is probably also the reason it is hard to find adequate coverage for club activities. Flug has done some research with some insurers I would have approached, but it appears he failed to cover the entire water front on the actual needs. We shall see.