How many fliers are switching to UMA. I want to And was wondering if we can get some feedback, so I can talk to my club about it

Yeah, why switch? AMA does a good job.

BT Asks:
>>>>>>>>
How many fliers are switching to UMA. I want to And was wondering if we can get some feedback, so I can talk to my club about it
<<<<<<<<<<<

Don't know about "How many...", however I am beginning to think that UMA has a very good option for certain clubs and individuals.
For the sport club that is generally composed of sport fliers, it is becoming increasingly difficult to justify the rulings of the AMA Safety Code along with the bureaucracy that imposes these rulings without significant membership/user input.
I can see where a club could cut out a load of unneeded paperwork, and club regulations simply by having the UMA Charter, and then as a club to recognize both UMA and AMA on the individual basis.
For the individual that simply flies for sport and recreation, the UMA insurance would most likely be adequate. It's NOT the dollars that matters. it's simply the dictatorial attitude of the AMA leadership and the general unconcern of the majority of the membership, which is well displayed even to the club leaders. As with the AMA, most club members expect the club leaders to always have the recreational fliers' "table set". In that regard as one who works to keep a club progressive and then watches a dozen others do the same for nearly a hundred more, then perhaps going to the route of the least work just might take some load off those that do far too much for too many.

The biggest draw back I see is that if you go that way, you can not participate in most competitions or fun flys around the country. AMA is a big enough monopoly that they can dictate manditory participation in any contest that is sanctioned by them. This means a UMA insured cannot fly in an AMA contest. Most of the contests and flying fields are going to be AMA sanctioned at this point. If you don't care about flying anywhere else, UMA wouldn't be bad. I think you will find that a lot of people like to compete or visit other fields and would not look positivly at it for that reason. Just my 2 cents.

I am hoping they grow, I think it will be good for the hobby. I dont like certain things about AMA, like the magazine that I dont read, and the increased dues in a short span. Yes, I know, its not much, but whats next, ya know!

I'm looking into UMA also, but it would be more of a "lack of confidence vote" towards the AMA. I fly at an AMA field, and travel to AMA and IMAA events, and other fields, so I would have to keep the AMA as well. But perhaps growing the UMA would increase the pressure for change in the AMA. Of course, the AMA may just litigate them out of business like they did with SFA, of which I was also a member from beginning to end. Like the UMA, easy club charters and simple insurance were the halmark of SFA.

Gordon

Flyboy say: >>>>>>>>>>>The biggest draw back I see is that if you go that way, you can not participate in most competitions or fun flys around the country. AMA is a big enough monopoly that they can dictate manditory participation in any contest that is sanctioned by them. This means a UMA insured cannot fly in an AMA contest. Most of the contests and flying fields are going to be AMA sanctioned at this point. If you don't care about flying anywhere else, UMA wouldn't be bad. I think you will find that a lot of people like to compete or visit other fields and would not look positivly at it for that reason. Just my 2 cents.
<<<<<<<<<<

Some confusion in the above post;

1. Any individual can be a member of both AMA and UMA if the individual so desires. That individual can then attend AMA Sanctioned Events.
2. Flying facilities are NOT SANCTIONED. Events are sanctioned. Clubs are Chartered. Several AMA clubs can form a Chapter.
3. AMA Chartered Clubs can operate off facilities where non-AMA members also operate. By the same token, facility providers can authorize UMA acceptance on their facilities.
4. An UMA Chartered Club could rid itself of AMA's bureaucratic autocracy.
5. UMA has very simple requirements. Only 5 persons are required to form a Chartered UMA Club. I can think of a fair number of operations that would be a lot easier with a "Club within a Club" and the lesser club could lease the big Club's facilities for a dollar a day for certain events. UMA appears to have no restrictions to "All UMA'' for any event the UMA group sponsors.
6. UMA definitely is the easy way for a general sport club to remain free of the giant paper machine now being legislated upon the recreational fliers.

Horrace

1. Agreed
2. Agreed
3. Question. Who is going to cover the land provider with insurance? UMA does not cover the land holder, as I read their info.
4. Question. Who is going to cover the club members with insurance? UMA covers the officers, not the membership of the club, as I understand it.
5. Observation. The club you describe has no liability coverage for the membership, nor the land holder. Easy, yes, safe.... doubtful. Maybe if the land holder, and club officers are the only members of the club this will work.

When you take into account the fact that half the claims are generated by clubs and are not flying type accidents, this scheme seems more than a little risky for the average member of an average club with more members than just the officers.

This is Sport Flyers all over again. Just my $.02 worth.

Rob

UMA - lets see.

Have they ever paid any insurance claims?
I know the insurance $ values but what does it really cover - anyone know? Do they cover any liability claims other than accidents and is it member-to-member only? Are stolen items covered?

No site insurance - well maybe you can find a stupid site owner.
I'm sure it would be good for a club to have some UMA members and some AMA members - who is covered for what then?

What if the FCC wants to take away some of our frequencies - will UMA step in? Yeah, right!

It looks like a smaller operation (maybe only one man) than SFA. What are their finances - is that available to members?
You get insurance for $38 and nothing else - they don't tell you on their web site what it costs to charter. No UMA events are listed or how many clubs belong. Will they be here tomorrow if you need them? Have you ever seen a UMA ad anywhere or do they survive by word of mouth? Is it just a money making scheme?

Is U-control, indoor, or anything other than RC and FF covered - those are the only two mentioned and no safety code for UC.

By the way, SFA took legal action against AMA first - made some untrue statements and AMA took them to task.

Go ahead - join UMA but don't expect to fly at my club field unless you are also an AMA member.



RCPAUL

JR, he say!>>>>>>>

Horrace
1. Agreed
2. Agreed
3. Question. Who is going to cover the land provider with insurance? UMA does not cover the land holder, as I read their info.
4. Question. Who is going to cover the club members with insurance? UMA covers the officers, not the membership of the club, as I understand it.
5. Observation. The club you describe has no liability coverage for the membership, nor the land holder. Easy, yes, safe.... doubtful. Maybe if the land holder, and club officers are the only members of the club this will work.
<<<<<<<<<

JR,

#3 above; The *club* simply names the site provider as a "Member'' and pay the dues. (In telephone conversation I understood that the policy will also name the site-owner as a party to the insured. I have not seen that in writing.)

#4 Those *members* that join UMA are covered by individual member insurance kind of like AMA members that are not associated with an AMA Chartered Club. If the club also -- which unlike AMA, a UMA club can -- wishes to accept AMA then those individuals can belong to the UMA Chartered Club with their AMA insurance. The diff. being the UMA members have a lesser amount of PRIMARY insurance while the AMA members have a SECONDARY policy of a greater amount. Dual membership gets both.
Actually, AMA should push dual membership. There's another million $ separating AMA's secondary from the effective primary.
From that standpoint, the officers of an AMA Charter Club, especially those clubs NOT incorporated, may well be advised to become UMA members as the PRIMARY insurance could be a help in staying out of private HO / etc., insurance. Many PERSONAL CHOICE options.

5. OBSERVATION: The trees are preventing your observation of the forest.


RC Paul, he say: >>>>>>>>>>>>
You get insurance for $38 and nothing else - they don't tell you on their web site what it costs to charter.
<<<<<<<<

Just have to know where to look. Pull up the Charter Application.

Hossfly, I know what you are saying, but what is the point of joining UMA if they do the same as AMA. Most people ***** about AMA. I can see why they would join UMA and not be affiliated with AMA, but why carry UMA if you have AMA? A lot of flyers are worried about the dues. I can't see them paying double. I know the field is not sanctioned by ama, but if it is covered by ama, then a UMA flyer will not be welcome there. Also a UMA flyer will not be allowed to fly AMA sanctioned contests unless he is AMA also. So what is UMA going to do for anyone? I guess I dont see it. If they worked together so you could have one or the other, I see it as being a huge plus. AMA would not let this happen because a huge number of people would join UMA and not pay AMA dues.

Hoss, Thanks for the facts! We need more of those around here. To even think A company like UMA would offer insurance for RCers without site owner insurance was silly!

Facts are also wrong on SFA vs AMA, but lets not go there.

Flyboy, The cost of change is often higher than the cost of keeping things as they are.

RC Paul, all I want is insurance! Keep the mag, keep the Muncie monument, keep the HUGE mess called administration.

Also, on fighting for frequencies, the AMA is the smallest dollar contributor to that cause. JR, Futaba, Airtronics, and MANY other multi-million dollar companies have WAY more at stake!

Please, everyone, let's keep it civil, we lost all the competition in annother thread, 'cause some can't play nice. We have the right to hate the AMA and Love the UMA if we want. try to tell us why we shouldn't, but don't hurt my feelings! :cry:

Gordon

Horrace

As you know, I am not big on playing "what if". However, since you are the expert on UMA maybe you can clear these questions up for me. Lack of any reference to the issues, on the UMA page leads me to ask them.

We know that the AMA does not cover the individual or club for libel or slander. It does, however, cover the land owner. If the landowner is covered with UMA insurance, is he covered for libel and/or slander?

We also know that half of the claims generated in the AMA are generated by clubs for "events" that have nothing to do with flying type accidents. If a club has a "slip and fall" type accident, such as a child falling on a piece of re-bar left sticking up by the club, does the UMA cover all of the club members in such a suit? Do they cover the landowner?

JR

JR, great questions. With your agreement, I would like to send these questions to UMA. Let's get their answer on it.

Gordon

JR: >>>>>>>>>>>
Horrace

As you know, I am not big on playing "what if". However, since you are the expert on UMA maybe you can clear these questions up for me. Lack of any reference to the issues, on the UMA page leads me to ask them.

We know that the AMA does not cover the individual or club for libel or slander. It does, however, cover the land owner. If the landowner is covered with UMA insurance, is he covered for libel and/or slander?

We also know that half of the claims generated in the AMA are generated by clubs for "events" that have nothing to do with flying type accidents. If a club has a "slip and fall" type accident, such as a child falling on a piece of re-bar left sticking up by the club, does the UMA cover all of the club members in such a suit? Do they cover the landowner?

JR
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

JR, I have not claimed to be an expert on any insurance. While I point out a few things about the two options for liability insurance while playing with toy airplanes, I have stated my opinion that UMA does offer a viable option, especially for the recreational fliers that could possibly hit someone or something with their toy creating bodily or property damage.
While you may *know* that cliche about claims being about non-flying incidents, I do NOT profess to KNOW that, just because some AMA person said so. Again, like UMA site owner insurance, that is not something where I have seen the actual performance documents.

As far as the landowner stuff ref. libel and slander, I simply do NOT GIVE A SMALL RODENT'S POSTERIOR.
My club carries the Trust Account as an additionally insured for their land mortgage. The document simply states liability with few other details. If the club gets into trouble, the Trust Account has a contract of first refusal. WHAMO, the Incorporated Club has NO assets, so AMA will get any bills. When the smoke clears, everything starts over. NBFD!

UMA has liability insurance for people. UMA's requirements are simple for less sophisticated units, individual or group.
Whether anyone else goes along with that is up to their own personal choice.

Frankly JR, anymore I don't really give a dam_.

I'm not switching to UMA. For me I see no advantage. Never met a UMA member. Are there any UMA members present on this site?

Rich

You know, the main complaint about the AMA is that you're "forced" to join if you want to fly with an AMA club.

It doesn't look like the UMA is any different in this respect.

Same song, second verse. Ain't no better, aint' no worse.

Who "FORCED" the club to join AMA ?

Form what I have read, UMA is not a club or modeling organization, it is a buisness, as far as I have read there are no elections, no voting , no say by members what so ever, it is and insurance agency and nothing more, if that what you want , then great UMA is for you , it is not an AMA alternative.

I joined the UMA two years ago right after they organized. I was a member for only that year. I think I received two or three fliers and some e-mails. I never saw a UMA sponsored event in my area (Oklahoma) nor did I ever see a "UMA FIELD".

All of the fields I visited and contests I attended required an AMA or MAAC card and that included IMAA events. If there are any UMA chartered fields in my area then it is a well kept secret (at least from me).

You also cannot fly at our field without an AMA or MAAC card.

In my case, I just could not see any benefit to belonging to the UMA. It may well be that this is just basically an insurance company. Nothing wrong with that and if it fits a persons (or your) needs then fine. However, since no AMA Charted club is going to accept a UMA membership in lieu of AMA membership and you want to fly at other sites or national events or IMAA events - then why bother???

Just what I think....

Dan

Wonder how AMA was faring after two years in existance?

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

Hello Dan. You might not know me but we've met, I fly with the Bald eagles on the west side, but I sure am jealous of your field!

Your points illustrate the "monopoly" the AMA has. We just want a choice, and yes, I do just want insurance. I just want to fly, with other guys who are so inclined, I don't want elections, National flying sites, a magazine I don't read, and excesive rules. But since I can't fly at any other clubs in the area, and participate in any events, w/o AMA, I have no choice. To say I have a choice is like telling me the solution to high gas prices is to not buy gas.

I hope we can all be cool, but I don't really care as much about all this as some. I just want to fly.

Gordon

You can buy insurance. You can fly. You can do pretty much as you want. If you want to join in the organization that the AMA offers, you can do that too. That happens to include covering you and the club and the landlord where you fly with insurance. Your personal insurance is not going to do that. If you get hit with someone else's plane, your personal insurance may or may not cover that. If the plane is flown by an AMA member, your injuries are covered.

You may want competition. AMA sanctions that.

You may want a magazine. AMA gives you that.

If what you want is a menu, start your own organization.

The clubs chose the AMA. The AMA does not sanction clubs, it charters those that wish to join.

To me that is a choice, not a monopoly. Even who is allowed to fly at a club field is a club choice, not mandated by the AMA. I am not sure what your gripe is, but, you might want to check out the facts.

If your gripe is simply that you want some place to fly for free, well.... thats life. The only thing that is left that is free is breathing.

JR

yada, yada, yada,

Same tune again, even the same words.

None of your response addresses reality, or my view. Hard to argue that way. I said "and yes, I do just want insurance", but there you go with "You may want competition. AMA sanctions that.

You may want a magazine. AMA gives you that.

If what you want is a menu, start your own organization.

The clubs chose the AMA. The AMA does not sanction clubs, it charters those that wish to join."

Why is it in this forum, you can't have any contrary opinion, or the "facts are twisted, and the attack begins. JR, I know the facts, I despise what AMA has become, and I believe they waste my money (have you been to Muncie?) and time. And I'll stand for my right to do so. AND, I'll be a member of both AMA and UMA, 'cause I have to. Don't tell me I don't, because there is no option at any club I HAVE EVER SEEN! And I won't fly anything but a Zagi away from a club field.

Oh, and where in this silly world did you come up with "If your gripe is simply that you want some place to fly for free, well.... thats life. The only thing that is left that is free is breathing. "?

Later

Gordon

Hi Gordon!

Thanks for the field compliment. Don't forget our annual Memorial Day Guest Day this year. Food, fun, flying and FREE!

As I said, whatever works for someone. As I understood the UMA at the time, UMA chartered clubs also accept AMA. Might not be true but that is how I 'think' I remembered. We had a pitch once by a rep from the SFA to join their organization but the club passed on that one. I brought the UMA information to the board but the board didn't see a need. We tossed it to the general membership and got the same results.

We do hear some negative comments from time to time within our membership regarding the AMA but none of our 120 or so members has ever discussed (as far as I know) any type of alternate affiliation. A lot of our members fly at other fields and attend events from local to national. I think it is just looked at as a "necessary evil (or whatever)" in order to enjoy the hobby without any liability concerns and to have the mobility to fly wherever.

Let's see, I pay $58.00 to AMA, $30.00 to IMAA (1st class mag delivery) and $100.00 club dues. $188.00/year and that allows me enjoy my hobby. No hassles, problems or questions. I can just "fuel and go". Works for me.

Need to visit your field this year. Heath says he will drag me along sometime. Sounds like you guys have a lot of fun.

Later

Dan