I myself think the AMA big shots oughta be cleared out of old Farts and a new younger 25-45 Y.O. or so bunch with fresh ideas be put in place.

Mind ya now, I'm an old fart also! I just think we need a change in the leadership to more ambitious an younger people. I'm all for it...

What ya think guys?????


Ronnie-The Toolman

i agree out with the old and in with the new

I think this thread is doomed-will not be long before the attacking will start

Whatever, but I believe this is a legitimate point I make.


Ronnie

What's wrong with both? New ideas tempered with the tried and true? Old people have much to offer, some think as clearly and modern as young guys.

Well, this is been discussed before and valid points of the older gentlemen have the time where the younger people have the spirit and energy butno the time because of workl kids whatever....
Getting rid of the older for the sake of that they are older is not in and of itself a great idea. I think the elders wisdom need to be tempered with the youth and spirit and ideas of the younger.
One class cannot rule the other, but come to a middle ground where both can benefit and prosper. Frankly, all this takes is the ability to put aside prejudices of how things were done vs. how they ought to be and work for a common conclusion. I find the wisdom blended witht he vigor is a beutiful thing.
One cannot be truly successful without the other.
Have some people stayed too long...sure, but that doesnt mean the youth would be better just different. It is the value of the idea not the age of the idealist that makes worth.

I say out with those unable to move forward in a new and brighter future and that are happy with the way things are or were. Get rid of the closeminded people. Don't get rid of them just because they have been there too long and they are old....

This discussion has been had and at the end everyone agrees that forward thinkers are what we want. And as for getting rid of people that have been in too long, it's called VOTING!!!! and we all get one.

I'm bit of a hobby jumper and have been involved in R/C aviation, surfing, skydiving, politics, and auto racing and I've found nearly every one of the largest governing bodies of each hobby ask the same question - How do we get younger people involved?

Well, the answer is simple - young people are less inclined to participate in club type organizations than previous generations. We are generally uninterested in club meetings, contests, hierarchical power structures and membership dues. Robert Putnam, in his book "Bowling Alone," observed that "More Americans are bowling than ever before, but they are not bowling in leagues." My generation is interested in showing up when it is convenient, doing what we want immediately upon arrival, and leaving when we're done - and will pay a premium to do so.

When I present this argument to the stereotypical "old guys," they call my generation spoiled and not interested in doing the work necessary to keep the club afloat. My response is, "well, I'm glad you understand your market so well - now what are you going to do about it?" Nearly every time, they insist that there isn't a way to accommodate such self absorbed behavior and that changing the entire structure of the organization is not possible and that all that needs to be done is to educate the young generation in the way things need to be done.

They ask me what they need to do, I tell them, and they tell me they aren't willing to do it. Frustrated R/C pilots are not alone. This scenario has occurred in everyone of the above mentioned hobbies. They all have entrenched nonprofit organizations scrambling to figure out how to make people do what they want them to do and refuse to react to the market.

I also tell the story, as told by James Surowiecki in his book "The Wisdom of Crowds," of the exploding popularity of bowling during the 50s and how it became so popular. At one time, bowling was not very convenient because in order to go bowling, you needed pin setters - actual people sitting behind the lanes setting the pins up by hand. Then along came Gottfried Schmidt and his frustration with the fact that if he wanted to bowl a few frames after work, there was no one around to set pins for him. When the "pin boys" were around, bowlers and pinboys had disdain for each other because the pin boys felt the bowler "Just wanted to bowl" and should have to set pins every now and then too - after all, pin boys wanted to bowl too, ya know! The only time he could get a pin boy was on the weekends, when everyone else decided they wanted to bowl. So he sat around and waited for a lane and didn't actually bowl that much.

Low and behold, Gottfried found a way to make participating in his favorite hobby more convenient by putting a team of engineers together with the American Machine and Foundry (AMF) and creating an automatic pinsetting machine! Participating in bowling became faster and more pleasurable. The booming middle class took to bowling, as alleys trumpeted the sport as ideal for the whole family" (Surowiecki 242). People could bowl anytime they wanted because by 1960, there were 12,000 alleys, with a total of 110,000 lanes with dozens of billboards around town telling people where they could get involved! Bowling leagues, teams and clubs flourished. Nearly everyone in the 60s who bowled was part of a league or team.

Fast forward nearly 50 years and go to any bowling alley on any night and it's likely to be just as packed as it was in the 60s - but you'll be lucky to find someone who is part of a league, team or club. My generation is just not as inclined to be part of a club - period. Most of us don't want to be president, we don't want to be treasurer, or secretary. Most of us don't read the free association publications. Most of us don't want to participate in contests. And most importantly, most of us don't want to feel inferior because we "just want to fly." Most of us choose not to spend all our time and money on a hobby. Most of us need to see the value in being a member above and beyond a discount at Avis. We just want to spend a couple hours every week or so doing something we enjoy - when it's convenient for us.

Call it selfish, call it what you will - but it is the fact of the matter and all large nonprofit sanctioning bodies are facing the same problem.

Now, my undergraduate work is in nonprofit management and public administration. I currently work in the amateur motorsports industry and am in the middle of witnessing an overtaking of the largest amateur motorsports sanctioning body by a small group of enthusiastic young people who were fed up with the way things were done. They started their own sanctioning body as a private corporation and are providing convenient venues for people to participate in amateur motorsports. They are bringing in more new people to the sport per year than the old guys ever did. They are selling a service to people who want it.

Frankly, this is my third stab at this hobby and I've stayed in it about a year each time. The first time, I was 12. The second time I was 26. This time I'm 32. The reason I didn't stick with it each time before? When the renewal for my AMA membership came up, I asked myself, "Do I really want to pay my local club and AMA $100 just to fly my plane once a month? That's $8 an outing and that doesn't include the money I'll spend fixing and upgrading my plane. Then I think about how the flying field is a 40 minute drive and I have to sit and wait until I can fly. I think about how it's an all day thing. I think about all the money I'll spend and realize it costs me about $20 per outing and convince myself it simply isn't worth it. Every year I made my decision not to fly anymore with my AMA membership in my hand.

I'm not an AMA member, but I'm about to reluctantly sign up right after I hit "OK" on this post. The only reason I'm going to become a member is because I want the insurance coverage for when I fly Aerobird Xtreme at the park near my house. I don't want to be part of a club. I don't want to compete. I don't want or need any of the programs they offer. I don't want to get involved. I just want to fly my plane without fear of losing everything I have each time I fly my plane at the local park - and that should be the only message AMA sends to every single person who purchases a remote controlled airplane - "Flying your plane is dangerous, be safe with AMA."

Im getting real tired of people *****ing about the Old Farts that run the clubs and wont do what the young guys think should be done. I am a member of a club that has 250+ members and I dont see any of the young guys stepping up to the plate. Sure I see them at the field with their airplanes but they are pretty scarce when the Old Farts are riding the mowers and running the weed wackers in the pit area. Oh some of them will ***** because they cant fly when the field is being mowed but that is too bad. We have elections every year and getting people to run for the Board or a club office is more than a little difficult. The young guys are nowhere to be found! I would welcome new blood in the administration of the club but the young guys just want to fly and ***** about how things are done and thats it.
SO QUIT *****ING AND RUN FOR A CLUB OFFICE-SOME OF US OLD FARTS NEED A REST!
Al Watson

I don't think any of it has to do with age. I think it has to do with complacency. When was the last time Dave Brown was seriously challenged for his office? Oberdieck has been the District VII VP for considerable time, and in my dealings with him he's not been someone I am impressed with. The other faces in MA tend not to change, either. Why? Because AMA members don't vote. I haven't voted in a long time, because I don't believe my vote matters. That seems to be the mindset of the rank and file. By the time the ballots come out in November or so, my flying season is over. I'm not talking about the AMA with the guys at the field. I don't think it's worth two minutes of my time to cast a vote.

Have the elections happen in July or August, and perhaps more of us would be talking about them and actually voting.

There are only two ways in which genuine, meaningful change will happen with the elected AMA leadership. The first is for something catastrophic to happen to the hobby, which in today's media-driven world of public opinion is a closer disaster than many of us believe. The second is for the elected AMA leadership to voluntarily step down, but they all appear to believe that they are individually critical to the organization--which they are not.

Mikel, with all do respect, but if you do not vote, yo forfeit your right o complain and by not voting, you in fact get the representation you deserve. If there were 100 people who thought like you or 200, those votes could impcact an election. I know the feeling of a vote not making an impact, but it does. Please look at District 1, out new VP had unseated a longtime VP who had his detractors(im trying to be nice). He sat in his seat for a LONG TIME!!!!! it was the votes that unseated him and not a lot at that.
Every vote matters every vote counts!!!

I've got a theory about the "old guys running everything" conspiracy. Maybe it's respect for their work and time in the hobby that gets them elected? Maybe the young guys are voting for them willingly?[&:]

I think you left out Bowling as one of your past hobbies wmac.
I would like to follow in the steps of Gottfried Schmidt and replace the board with AI. May I suggest the H-A-L Computer like the one in the movie, 2001- A Space Odyssey.
What are you doing Dave??

I have an idea..
Remote control bowling!!!![X(]

I'm into that.. can you use planes?

Several randon comments: OK, I've just turned 72 and I will not run for any AMA office. Doing my part to bring the young folk in.

On voting: all control line and free flight folks vote, so there![8D]

WMAC expresses himself well and has figured out what the AMA has that he needs. I really don't see what changes could be made in the AMA to give him more of what he wants.

I would love to see more young people involved in all aspects of model aviation.

wmac,

You express yourself very well, but aren't the two paragraphs above from your post contradictory? We need young folks to do with/to the AMA what you've described as happening in your motorsports profession: get fed up - get involved. NOT what you've described in the last paragraph. Surely, young folks in motorsports have families, careers, money and time pressures to balance too?

Regards, Gary

Hmmm...that statement perpetuates the problems... definitely is not the cure IMO.

Just why do people contend AMA membership somehow conveys safety? As for as financial risks are concerned...many times more people are struck by lightning than are financially ruined by flying models. Ever see someone fly and hold a transmitter with looming dark clouds? Reality check, please.

Sorry, couldn't help it.

Back to previous programming.

I myself can't understand why one would claim the reason for not getting back into the RC flying would be the cost of the AMA and club membership, when some of other the hobbies must have been as equally expensive or even more so. I'm sure those other hobbies had specific rules and regulations so one could partisipate and enjoy the sport.

I think the primary reason young people are not getting involved is the inconvenience factor. Todays young people have been raised in a culture of instant gratification. Video games and television have been the primary contributors. Why learn how to build a fly a model airplane when you can buy a video game that gives essentially the same experience. The loss of quality flying sites contributes to the incovenience. If you have to drive 15 or 20 miles to find a flying site, why not just buy a cheap electric park flyer and go to the local baseball field? Thats the reality. Until young people see value in the club and the AMA, they're not going to participate. WMAC found value in the insurance. That works for him, and maybe others. But we must find other value as well.

In my club, there are a few Father/Son teams that fly together all the time. This is a great way for the kids to show dad up when their flying skills advance quicker. I've convinced by Brother and his 14 year old son to give it a try. We're going to hold an open house, advertising in the local middle and high schools. If we can convince the younger generation that its FUN and convenient, they'll come in droves. Will they take the reins? Not likely. Not until they reach the point that they become the older generation, and have invested themselves in the hobby. And then they'll be complaining that there isn't anywhere to fly, and young people aren't helping. (cue circle of life music)

Brad

You seem to be looking at kids. The OP is talking about people in their mid-20s and up, in terms of AMA leadership roles.

It's easy to understand why such people are not putting themselves in such positions. It's got little to do with instant gratification, and much more to do with societal changes. A bachelor's degree today is the equivalent of a high school diploma sixty years ago. It's the norm, and it is expected. Those hoping to secure a better life for themselves and their families need to pursue an advanced degree. Such things are not inexpensive today, both in terms of time and money. There are few young couples where both spouses don't work and have career aspirations. Housing costs have risen to the point where it is unrealistic to have a single-income family. Young children are being raised in day cares, and time spent with them is precious to their 40+ hour a week parents.

Tell me where, in terms of priority, does active AMA involvement rank for these people? Pretty low, I'd say. For those involved in modeling, it's hard enough to find the time to participate in the hobby, let alone to think about taking a leadership role in it. For the best and brightest, life has imposed other priorities. And rightly so, too.

I look at my own situation. I fly at a public field that is in danger of being closed. I've helped organize the fliers and worked with the responsible local government to keep things moving ahead. Ideally, I'd get a club started. I've got my eye on what would be a premier local flying site. Getting it started would require considerable work, in terms of lobbying the various local governments that would be involved, finding a workable arrangement with the landowner, and starting a local club in a way that would attract the right type of members. Those are responsibilities that I simply cannot take on at the moment. I'm balancing full-time law school along with a career that requires considerable attention. Once school is done, my priority has to be changing careers. I'd like to make time for a family. Becoming more active within what I view as a status quo, good'ole boys' organization is not a priority for me, and can't be for some time.

That's exactly my point Brad, that there is a fundamental shift in the culture of the generations. It's not the cost of the membership, it's the perceived value of the membership. As far as I can see, the AMA essentially provides two services to the majority of its 170,000 members - insurance and government relations (for radio frequencies and right to land use). The clubs provide a venue to participate.

The young people who are getting involved in motorsports sanctioning are doing so with the motive of profit at the forefront of their involvement. They are a business and provide a service. I don't know enough to know if this sort of movement has already happened within the R/C community, but it wouldn't surprise me if a new sanctioning body moved in and began chipping away at AMA's 7-10 million dollar revenue stream.

There simply isn't a sufficient motivating factor for the younger generation to volunteer and deal with the hassle. There are too many other hobbies that do not require or have the expectation of "Giving Back." Again, I'm not saying it's right, or fair or cool to be selfish - I'm just stating my observations of the majority of the participants of the various hobbies I've been involved in.

I believe most of the young people participate in activities with an eye on a "hassle factor." If the hassle outweighs the reward, it just doesn't get done. Let's look at some factors limiting why some people may choose not to participate.

Convienience is a large part of why this hobby isn't even more popular. I'm lucky to have nice large park 10 blocks away from my house. I can go fly every evening after work for a half hour if I wanted (weather permitting). A major limitation is space. When I was growing up, BMX was king. I was into that too, but when all the vacant lots in the neighborhood got built up, we didn't have anywhere to do our thing after school - and the only place we could build big dirt jumps was the trackso we stopped.

Another is flying a plane is simply not easy to do. It takes determination and skill. I recently told a friend about my plane and he decided he wanted one. I recommended he buy a Slo-V to learn with - and also recommended he not fly it without me around to help him. He went out and flew it anyway, cracked the fuse and practically begged me to buy it from him for $100. I'm still working on helping him get the courage to fly it some more and get good at it.

IF AMA wants young blood, they need to realize a fundamental shift in the culture of hobby enthusiasts has occured and react accordingly. Personally, I don't think it's in their best interest. What I believe AMA should do is continue to operate with their existing structure and embrace and cater to the people who love their mission, vision and culture. Keep the "old farts" running the organization. They often have the passion for and are best equipped to run a club.

If it hasn't happened already, a competitive private insurance and event coordination company will likely come in and pull half their members away with a new service more diirectly catering the younger market.

The benefits are two-fold 1. More products available for the market which will force competition among sanctioning bodies leading to creative and aggressive promotional campaigns. 2. Those who don't like the way AMA is run can find a home with a competitive organization - leading to less crowded flying fields, more flying time and more pleasurable experiences.

Both of these benefits will likely create an increase in pleasurable participation in the hobby.

Now, the only question is, who is best qualified to create a competitive sanctioning body? An alliance of the manufacturers of park flyers, of course.

"Now, the only question is, who is best qualified to create a competitive sanctioning body? An alliance of the manufacturers of park flyers, of course. " quote wmac

Tawhoops, thats a wordy dird around here.

JUGFLYER - ??? - not sure I follow.

Park Flyer..... Sensitive subject for some.

This thread could of ended with WMAC's first post. Bravo, sir! Well put.