Thanks teookie,

JUGFLIER turned me onto the conversation in another thread about AMA membership discounts. I didn't read that thread before my other two posts, but realize this problem is at least already being explored by the current AMA administration. I completely agree with the AMA offering a less expensive membership option for those of us who want to fly an electric plane in a field near our house. I'd gladly pay $20 a year for the insurance coverage and government relations. That's all I want and I believe that's what most of us young blood's want. We're simply not interested in paying $58 and donating countless hours that I'd, frankly, prefer spending with my wife and child.

What AMA is probably afraid of is turning a 170,000 $58 memberships into 20,000 $58 memberships and 100,000 $20 memberships. Further, they are probably worried that their association publication's rate base would slam into the ground if people were given an option to not receive it and pay less each year. But that's another story.

Again, there has been a fundamental shift in the culture of hobby enthusiasts and, more importantly, the way clubs/memberships are perceived. Therefore a fundamental shift in the way they are treated is in order. There are those who thrive on club participation and others who don't. AMA should look at their membership as a product and treat it as such. Very few young people are interested in the product they are selling at the price offered.

I'll also throw this out to bring it back to the original post - the only way they are going to get a bunch of young people involved is to sell franchise licenses of certain geographical regions in which enthusiastic young people could capitalize on their efforts.

"What AMA is probably afraid of is turning a 170,000 $58 memberships into 20,000 $58 memberships and 100,000 $20 memberships. Further, they are probably worried that their association publication's rate base would slam into the ground if people were given an option to not receive it and pay less each year. But that's another story." quote wmac



What AMA is afraid of is dessention in the ranks if they offer a cheaper product to E-fliers. As you probably read, the attitude is that if they can lower the price for someone else.... then why not me. You won't see a massive defect of 58.00 people going to 20.00. Most of the 58.00 people fly more than park fliers. i agree with you that many of the people do not want the responsibility of being in a club. there fore the idea of a club being run as a business is a good idea. People can just pay the dues, go fly and then go home. no by-laws, no hassles, no club meetings, no work days.

Well, let me tell you about our flying club. We have had the same older fellers in charge for several years until last week.

They didn't want,

1. anymore new members, we only have 10 now
2. don't paint the pits, bare wood is just fine
3. don't have any fun flys other than the existing members
4. don't raise the dues over the $10 per year, its just a waste of money to have that extra $ sitting in the bank
5. don't encourage anymore new members
6. don't put ads in the paper or radio about getting more members.
7. don't change anything from what it has been for years an years


Well, as of last Sat. we elected a new, younger Pres. and things are already starting to shape up.

our new Pres. is about 26-29 Y.O. an full of go get'em an starting to make things happen in just 1 week.
our first fun fly will be next weekend
dues have been raised to $25 to help with any expenses that come up
we will be painting the pits so it will last longer an look better
we are putting an ad in the paper an going on the radio to get new members
we will change things for the better
will be having a learn to fly day now

Not all of the younger people are lazy, irresponsible, an spoiled as some here think.

I'm 56 Y.O. an tickled to death to see this new blood an progress being made



Ronnie-The Toolman

Here is the problem I see all the time in our club. We have a bunch of older members me included and we have about 15 younger guys 45 down not a single one and I mean a single one of them younger guys want to do a dang thing they wont hold office they wont help with work at the field they whine complain and cry if asked to do anything. SOOO that just leaves us that are 50+ to run the show do the work etc. The biggest complainers are the younger members in the 25 to 45 group at the last meeting this one was told in very simple words if you dont like things the way they are then take a office position get involved help out and thier reply was I aint in this club to work I am only here to fly. Well needless to say I think next year his membership renewal will be denied due to his attitude. A lot of the younger members feel they dont have to clean up afterthemselves either they will go to the field and leave trash. Well this is all coming to a halt if it even means removing people from the club. If the younger generation wants a little more resepct then earn it like the older generation did after all they aint owed anything in this life.

I can see that most of the older guys here have little or no faith in any of the younger generation.

But I'll bet my sweet ***** that you're tickled to death they are paying into the S.S. system so you can keep on collecting your check every month though.

I for one, still have faith in the younger generation.

Ronnie

Hey Ronnie,

I was that guy once - for about three years. I'm not suggesting my generation is lazy, irresponsible or spoiled. After marriage, graduate school, a very demanding job and a baby - I'm no longer that guy. And neither are many of us who want to participate in the hobby - we simply need a different product than what is currently being offered.

Mutt is dealing with the realities of this younger generation. My suggestions address both scenarios.

Well, maybe the younger ones here in the Mo. Ozarks are not quite as spoiled or lazy as some of the rich Left an Right coast kids.


Ronnie

Pay in all you want I dont collect SS so your little snide remark you can keep to yourself. I said in my club the younger ones are lazy self absorbed how on earth can anyone have any faith when they act that way?? When they start acting like a responsible adult member in the club I belong to then and only then will I have faith in any of them. I also see it here on rcu the younger guys not saying all now either (so dont try to twist it like you seem to like to do) are the exact same way when they start to contribute then maybe more people will respect them respect is earned not owed.

And so goes the fundamental error in the club governing body of a hobby: One large organization with a set of rules that have worked for dozens of years for the members who appreciate, respect and follow the structure with the dichotomy of an activity that attracts new members who do not appreciate, respect or wish to follow the structure that has worked so well for so many years.

There are thousands of young people who will appreciate, respect and follow the structure of AMA and will contribute. But there are hundreds of thousands of young people who want to fly model planes but aren't interested in the current product or service offered by the AMA.

It's not that the younger generation is is lazy or disrespectful. We're just not interested in mowing the flying field anymore than we are interested in mowing the golf course we play on.

How do I say this? People are people. These lazy young guys turn into grumpy old men. If you can't move them along, move yourself along. Life's too short and there are far too many nice folks to fly with. Find'em and fly with them.

A few years ago when planes had to be built, this hobby attracted a whole different mindset of people. Today with arf's and rtf airplanes, the market has attracted a wider range of personalities. With that a new set of problems on the local level.

Jugflier, that may be the truest thing in this thread! wmac makes a good argument, but it's based on his experience. It's not what I see at our club. Even the old guys don't like paying into the AMA due to a lack of value. If you have homeowners insurance, you don't need secondary insurance. Other than a decent magazine, what does the AMA really offer? Even if you give them the radio frequency argument, it's now in the past and no longer valid with the new spread spectrum radios. There is a definite lack of value. Until that is solved, the AMA has a real problem marketing themselves to young or old.

well as I see it you pay well for the greenskeeper to keep up the greens you play on so pay to keep up the field you fly on it seems it all the old guys doing the needed work on the field & in the club, maybe field fees should be instead of club dues.with Golf most have club dues & greens fees O well no real solutions

What do you mean, no real solutions - that is exactly the solution. Give me the opportunity to pay a premium to not have to deal with the hassle of listening to a gavel pound on a table and a 30 minute gripe session of how the current administration is tired of doing all the work.

Or, I'll go fly in a department of parks and rec maintained field without any hassles.

For a little while, anyway. That revenue is quickly disappearing due to liability concerns. That's how AMA can still use strongarm tactics to conscript members. You want to fly in my area, there's no other choice than to join the club. Unless you want to use pine trees for pylons. The real way to vote is to vote with your money, so I'm taking a proposal to our club president to go with insurance from an insurance company. Now what is the AMA going to do to regain our members if I'm successful?!

Hello all,

I agree each club has its issues, whether it be lazy youths or senior citizens stuck in a rut for the last 10 years,not wanting to change a thing.
The arguement of Kits Arf or RTF Is a moved point. Which is also reflected in the in the root of this forum..... I am NOT a modeler, I DO NOT Build planes. I am an R/C pilot. There are AWESOME builders out there that cant fly to save their lives, and people like me who cant build one of those little rubber band powered gliders. Times have changed and if you cannot change with them you WILL be left behind! I look at the AMA Rag and what do I see people who look like they have escaped from the nursing home to fly their escapment powered planes! WOOO HOOO look who's 95 years old this month Dont get me wrong its because of the 95 year old guys who 45 years ago pioneered this sport, and they deserve respect. But COME ON if you dont catch the young ones this sport will DIE!

And I dont know a 18 year old that wants to mow their yard let alone the flying field. But instead of arguing with them try learning from them they will be flying circles around you within a year, and in turn hopefully they will learn from you. Stop arguing and work out something thats works for both of you. Respnabilaty is learned NOT inherited just like your children the young people in your clubs will learn by example make the field fun if kids wanna be *****ed at they would stay at home with their parents.

I can say this because I am one of them I am 29, I own my own company, married and have 4 kids. Dont shoot our ideas down or find fault with everything we come up with. We ALL are here to have fun......I think so anyhow.

As far as the AMA I'm not buying their insurance dont need a dental plan. What do ya get a little flimsy ass card and apeice of paper with rules saying what i cant do. OH and a magazine with articles focus on the way things were. You know what I dont know a soul that flies CL never even seen a CL plane???? 58$ for THAT hell for 24 I can get a cool ass heli rag! I dont want to see the AMA go under but if they dont get fast forwarded into the 21st century they too will be left behind! From what I have seen happening the only reason to join the AMA is if you want to join a AMA chartered club!

Dont be hard on the young ones.......They are your future!

Hmmm... so you think the solution is for the AMA to neglect the free flighters and c/l'ers because you've never seen one... You might be one of the self-centered people we're talking about. Open your eyes man, the AMA doesn't represent just ARF'ers or just builders. It's supposed to represent all forms of model aviation. Oh, and that's coming from a 33 year old, so sorry, but I'm not an old guy.

WOW you took everything I just said completely our of context twisted it up and made it look like I was bashing C/L'ers, do you take estrogen pills or something? I'm done here if this is the mentality that readers of this forum have to deal with I am sorry for the future of this sport. your post is the the exact reason no one wants to join a club someone voices their oppinion and then an someone else has to twist it all up into a argument.!

LET ME SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU!

IF the AMA wants to continue, offer something appealing to the younger crowd. The argument of old guys vs young. The truth is you young guys all you have to do to win that argument is wait. The opposition will die! Litterally

There seems to be a fundamental difference of opinion in this discussion about the role of the AMA vs. the role of the chartered club. The AMA is in the business of promoting model aviation, providing a sanctioning body for contests and events, and using the collective resources of its members to provide some common services (insurance, communication, etc).

The local clubs, in return for being chartered by the AMA, recieve the benefit of collective negotiation for insurance protection, as well as a common set of standards for safety.

Some seem to think that the AMA sets down a lot of rules for what can and can't be done, but if you read the rule book, its really not very restrictive.

The local clubs each have their own personality, and this is where the sport lives and dies. And this is where the younger generation can be encouraged to participate. There is no one size fits all, so the AMA shouldn't be blame if one club decides it doesn't want new members, doesn't want to upgrade the field, doesn't want to advertise. Likewise, the AMA shouldn't get the credit if a club is actively pursuing new members, involved in the community. The AMA doesn't determine who mows the field, who pays for it, or how. The local club does.

The AMA should continue to support all aspects of the hobby. Will some aspects be more popular than others? Absolutely. Could the AMA improve its magazine? Probably. But in the grand scheme of things, $58/year for an OK magazine and insurance coverage, in my book, is an acceptable value.

As for comparing golf courses to flying clubs - how much are dues at a private golf club? Probably far more than you pay for AMA and club membership. A round of golf takes about 4 hours to play. That's a lot of flying time. Most public golf courses probably charge $30-$50 a round. Add in the cost of equipment, and I think model aviation is actually cheaper than golf as a hobby.

Now let me propose a new paradigm. Why aren't there any commercial flying sites? I think this might be what wmac could be thinking. There aren't as many people willing to pay as much money to fly airplanes, as there are to play golf. When there are, thats when commercial flying sites will appear. My guess is it aint gonna happen.

Brad

Maybe it's your lack of punctuation, but between swearing it seems to me that you are saying that c/l'ers don't exist or are backwards people stuck in the past. Neither are true and you are being close minded and intolerant, yet claiming the AMA is through MA. BTW, I do agree with your last sentence, with the exception that I find value in MA. It's pretty good and shows a cross section of the entire hobby. I didn't come to that conclusion quickly, though. Stick with it for a while and it all becomes interesting. When you first start the hobby, everybody has a bit of tunnel vision.

I'm a CL flier and I've mellowed on MA. So long as there is an occasional picture of me and my grey-headed flying buddies, I don't mind all the park fliers and ARF's.[8D] Actually, at some point, as my reflexes degenerate, my concentration declines, and my body aches, I'm going to learn to fly RC so I can go down to the churchyard and fly sport freeflight but have them come back to where I am sitting.

It's a good thing you can actually see when a post was started and when it was zapped by the mods. We should have an average thread close counter on this forum. Then have some kind of contest to see how fast we can close them.

STLPilot,
I'm going to try and not close down a thread if I can avoid it from happening. That's not how I like to work as a moderator. In fact, I like to see thread play out till the end if at all possible. As long as everybody posts within the RCU Community Rules everything will be fine and dandy. I'm hoping that all the troubles that have happened in the past stay there, in the past. This is a great forum with a lot of good information in it and it deserves to be allowed to stay opened so members have a place to discuss AMA issues.

Ken

I think this is great.

Perhaps wmac can rally some of his youthful peers to get working on this new organization that will serve their interests, one of which seems to be to not belong to an organization!! And of course their desire to have somebody else do it for them so they can concentrate on what they want to do, just fly.

Ironic isn't it??

Brad brings up some excellent points. "The local clubs each have their own personality, and this is where the sport lives and dies. And this is where the younger generation can be encouraged to participate."

The AMA and most other hobby sanctioning bodies believe "the way of the future is to encourage the younger generations to participate and take the reigns of the existing infrastructure to perpetuate the hobby." That business model is exactly the reason why thier memberhship numbers are stable at best and destined to rapidly decline in the coming years. Younger generations are less inclined to pariticpate in club, league or civic organizations than previous generations, and are even less inclined to pay membership dues to participate in a hobby - unless they recognize and internalize the value of the membership and the sanctioning body that provides it.

"... in the grand scheme of things, $58/year for an OK magazine and insurance coverage, in my book, is an acceptable value."

The AMA is a nonprofit club that helps other nonprofit clubs engage in model aviation activities and works to advance the hobby. Again, AMA is going to be hardpressed to find enough young people interested in club-type activities to maintain its current membership level, let alone increase it. I recently started a thread to ask whether or not I should join AMA and the consensus is that I have no real reason to do so because my homeowner's insurance covers me for the type of flying I do.

Without knowing who I am, how is AMA expected to move me up the membership pyramid? How am I supposed to know about the wonderful world of AMA? If their membership was only $20, I'd pay them $20 and give them my information so they could then partner with companies that have products I'm interested in and offer me exactly what I wanted - and slowly move me out of the park and onto the flying field - and eventually onto the Board of Directors (after my boy goes to college and my life slows down when I reach the stage of my life where giving back becomes a priotiry). Quite simply - that's how it works. And quite frankly, I can't believe I'm giving this information away - I get paid a lot for this type of consulting. Which brings me to my next point.

Everything I want to know about a hobby is available for free online. As far as the magazine goes, younger generations place little to no value on print publications, so using that as a member benefit falls flat. AMA could immediately increase membership by offering a reduced price ($40) membership sans magazine. I'm in the media business and produce two publications that are purchased and distributed as member benefits by two different hobby related sanctioning bodies. Belive me when I say it helps the AMA and the publishing company more than it helps the members. Media is in the business of connecting retailers and customers. I don't know the arrangement between AMA and the publisher of its association publication, but what I do know is someone is making a lot of money by delivering that publication into 170,000 homes.

Look at the number of different sections this forum has devoted to specific interests within the model aviation hobby. A 200 page magazine, with 100 pages of advertising, can't possibly captivate and intrigue the interests of 170,000 members. Eliminating the magazine and generating better partherships with manufacturers and retailers would make the data of each member's interest available with the ability to send specific, individualized, targeted messages to each of their members. This approach is more cost effective and profitable for everyone involved. Before you go nuts about sharing data, they're already doing this with their print publication, but in a different way. For example, would you watch a TV show you're not interested in? Do you want to watch a TV commercial about cat food if you don't own a cat? Why would you want to get a magazine with ads in it about stuff you're not interested in? Yet they send it with articles and advertisements of narrow interest to a large population.

The younger generation is a generation of hyper-consumers. We get bored very quickly unless there is something to keep our attention. Hence, my hobby jumping. I'm not unique, and according to my research, I'm quite the norm for most people today under 40. I'm going to get bored with this Aerobird Xtreme. Unless AMA finds a way to reach, connect and keep me and others like me intrigued, AMA is going to go from 170,000 members to 0 in the coming decades.

Brad doesn't think it's possible, but someone - heck, it might be me - will come along and find a way to lure AMA's younger, current and prospective, model aviation enthusiasts into extrememly profitable customers by providing a product different than what AMA is currently offering. The funny thing about markets is this new product may or may not involve model airplanes.