pilot727

The modelers here put a nice club in the park and done all the work together and after they got it all done the park has decieded to charge each modeler to fly there, talk about a bad deal, the only thing that can be done is to talk it over and try and work it out some how between all of you, one hot head can ruin any head way so give it a try if you still want to be a part of it, i am a firm believer of when your a member of a field and certain people can bring there friends there to fly when they are not members but it is an only a one flight per person then you join or cannot fly there but there is always some that always keep bringing there friends there to fly but no one else can, when i get into a club and it is not the same rules for all, i quit and try and find a club that the rules are for everyone and not just a few, i understand and it might work if all can talk it out kindly, rules are rules and are not to be broken by anyone even if he is the president of the club the rules are there for everyone to have equal rights, i really hope that you can all put this behind you, it is never too late, good luck to you all.

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

So what else can be done to make sure "everyone" gets to Fly and get's into our Rc airport?

When "we set up a Flying field" are we not the operators and administrators of an RC airport?

Real airports do not get to discriminate against one pilot flying in a cessna 172
vs another pilot flying a cessna 172 do they?

So why is it any different with our RC airport's that 'we ' run....?


Although the thread has taken some turns,
some great ideas about how to make things
cheaper with fewer obstructions to get into our
AMA clubs and increase our numbers has come about. Any other ideas?

pilot727

Im sorry is a great start, i was once on a medication that did not agree with me and i was a little bit of a pain, i stood up and got everyones attention and said that i was sorry for my attitude in the past few weeks and i got a different medication, not everyone is right or wrong but to say i am sorry and can we be friends and start over again, i am sure that you are all great people and we all make mistakes and i am sure that no one hates you at all, if sometimes one cannot handle the matters then it is best to stay out of them as whatever they have to pay to make the field better, we all pay the same thing, after our club got onto its feet, now at all events and we have many with as many as 60 to 90 people show up, all the food and drink is free at both clubs, one time we needed extra money for the road and they asked if anyone wants to pay a year ahead they can pay 40 dollars as they needed the money then so i went for it as many other did as well, starting a club is not easy and every club has a presdient and officers but we have well over 100 in one club and the other clubis way over 100 members, we vote on everything and that is the way it is done in our clubs, but i do not know the rules at your club but i am sure these guys are doing there very best to improve the club and not to hurt anyone or there feelings, please and thank you are two words that usually work pretty well, but also it only takes a few to hurt a club and names should not be mentioned as that only hurts more feelings and does no good, have a change of heart and good luck

KidEpoxy

um, how much did they charge for how many acres of land...
and then add in the total PerUse Fees the clubmembers pay in one year. That is your Land Use Cost. Lots of private property clubs have very, very high land costs... what is the calculated land cost for that PerUse Charge Park club (show lease + Estimaded UseFee) and the acres you get for that expense ?

If the club members chose (voted) to put money into improving land, that expense is always at risk of getting lost... by municipality action or a bunch of condos being built across the street from the end of the runway. City guys can always one day say "Know what, for no real reason we decided to un-appealably Ban RC in the city, but dont worry, it wont take effect till the first of the year." Clubs can move to other sites, runways cant.


John-
One pilot of a c172 has permission to land on a private property Private Airstrip, and the other c172 pilot would be treaspassing. If I laydown a gravel strip on my property for my ultralight, I dont a bunch of fools inviting themselves over my fences to my back20 (no, I dont have 40ac & UL). Not all runways are public, just as not all AMA Club Fields are. Heck, the AMA gives out kits making the clubs seem downright xenophobic toward outsiders flying there with all the insurance jargan.

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

John,
You are seriously confusing full scale aviation and model aviation in your hypothesis here. You are right about an airport not being able to keep someone out (full scale) but there are too many variables there, including big time government supplementation. A private airport CAN and WILL exercise their right to keep full scale traffic under control, and they reserve that right unless they take federal monies. One reason that model airplane rallies have been curtailed at full scale airports was because of full scale aviation complaints about lackk of access to those airports during model events, and the FAA took those airports to task over it.
When we set up our model airfields we are the operators and administrators IF we are given such control by the local government entities, or better yet if we own it.
There are so many types of airfields being operated that your question is irrelevant. Private fields can do as they wish. Those given administrative rights may do as they wish as well, as long as it is done under the guidelines set forth in their contracts. Public parks evidently are a whole different ballgame, and those tend to be the most controversal as evident by this thread.
It would be simple if the clubs owned their own property and could do as they wish, but we don't live in a perfect world. So far the question you have asked has not proven to pan out to much. If anything it has reinforced the fact that what some consider "outlandish" others will consider perfectly "acceptable" and are more than willing to pay for it. My guess is that you never really appreciate it until you don't have it any more.
Tommy

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Hmmmm...Just a thought....How does that compare to clubs that get an AMA subsidy?... Or public assistance, one way or another?

Well said! and they are.

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

You just aren't gonna let that go, are you. Well crank the last time I checked the AMA was not the government. They are an entity made up of members, an elective organization, like the AARP or the NRA. When they give a supplement to a club, in the form of a grant, it is done so with a set of guidelines. Those guidelines, as far as I have read, do not address the fact that a club is not allowed to govern their members. It does require the club to have a set of bylaws. If those bylaws are in place, they have a set of guidelines for membership, and a member of the club must follow those guidelines. If not then the club can dismiss them. Now if you in fact have a problem with that, it is not with my club, but with the AMA.
You guys seem to be focused on my club for some reason because it has been made public that we were given a small AMA field improvement grant a few years ago. Are you aware of how many clubs have recieved this grant? Are you aware of how many qualify for this grant? If you have a problem with it you need to contact the AMA or your District rep and talk to him. The program has been in place for many years.
The money did not come from federal funds, we looked at that and it was too restrictive. It did not come from state funds, again too restricitve. The AMA program was investigated, and two of us filled out the application. It is not hard, about 6 pages, look it up.
I personally know why you are taking me to task over this, it is no secret, but you had better get all the facts before you condemn my club for something that you have obviously been misinformed about.
Our club will continue to require AMA membership, and our contract with the landowner will see to that. Without it, their insurance company would require us to pay an extra waiver, and they do not want that either. We live with a set of rules that both ourselves and the landowner have agreed to and are willing to abide by.
Please refrain from referring to this issue unless it really pertains to the subject at hand, since I am not going to continue to debate it with you when it has very little to do with the context of John rhetorical question.
Tommy

Stickbuilder

There is also a misconception about full scale airports here too. Even Municipal airports can and do charge landing fees. Private airports can make whatever rules they want. To some degree so can the Municipal airports. Some limit and outright ban general aviation aircraft (privately owned aircraft) while allowing commercial carriers to operate exclusively. Military Air bases specificially prohibit private aircraft from operating from the flight surfaces (with some exceptions). There is no rule (nor should there be) concerning the cost of membership in any model airplane club. This is the business of the several clubs. Just because someone buys or receives an electric foamy, does not give them the right or privilidge of flying indiscriminately wherever he wants. The cost of membership in the AMA is pre established. So are the initiation fees and dues for the clubs. This has never been an inexpensive hobby. It will probably never be one. If one is serious about this hobby, then they will find a way to afford the costs. If not, then they will not last. Do any of you really think that owning a park flyer constitutes a hobbyist? I don't really think so. These are gateway toys that will either generate enough interest to cause someone to delve deeper into the hobby, or they will see it as a passing fad, and will soon be on to something else.

This sniping at each other is foolish. You guys are some of the better modelers in the country. It's time to act like it. Personalities aside, think about what you are doing, not only to each other, but to the hobby. Outsiders (non members) read these posts, and it does nothing to promote membership in your club, or within our hobby. Please back it down a few notches. I'm surprised that Ken hasn't locked it down already.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

pilot727

One club that i am in cost 100 to join and then 60 a year for a beautiful flying field with bathrooms, it cost 58 dollars a year for AMA and then after being a member it is only 60 dollars a year and the work never stops the money keeps right going into the club, now we have water to make our field great and full and there are as many electrics there as there are gas engines, electrics are not toys and many are faster and more powerful then gas, we all pay the same club dues, we have a wonderful club, i know that every club makes there own rules but i guess that depends on what kind of a field that you want to fly at and if you want to water the field or let it go to pickies, them things that get all through your socks, we have a nice field and most of the guys that fly electrics also many of them fly gliders and gas, so it really matters not what you fly everyone pays the same amount of money and 60 dollars a year for what i have is a very small amount of money and for under 18 years of age it is 20 dollars a year and one dollar for there AMA, i think it is a rather more then fair price, only my point of view.

pilot727

Also i believe that 100 dollars covered the first year of flying, from then on it was 60 a year and we have many events and all food and drink is free the last one had more then 60 people attend and there were tickets sold for nice prizes, airplanes and fuel and tools and many many nice things for the pilot, i wanted a tray but a young boy had won it, he swapped me the tray for the gift certifcate i had plus a shirt and cap then he won an airplane, i then won a 40 size engine which i gave to the boy and again i won a huge box of fie works and i gave them to the boy to celebrate with as i only really wanted that tray and come to find out his dad was the safety man the the other club i was in, we have so many members that it is hard to remember all of there names, problems, no we have not had a problem at all not any except one guy came to the club that had never flown before, turned his radio on and knocked down a 3000 dollar airplane and gave the pilot a 100 dollar bill and left, you do not go to a golf course and just start playing gold now do you, well it is common sence that one does not go to an airfield knowing nothing about the hobby and turn his transmitter on, no more then you would jump on a golf cart and go play golf, it is only common sence that one would at least ask some one about what he can do and how he can become a member and a part of the club

KidEpoxy

What?
Are you kidding?
Cox049 Control Line at the local schoolyard / business parkinglot on a sunny saturday 30 to 50 years ago was downright cheap Dad & Son time.

Any body in the AMA ever fly a cox 049?
Yeah, as I figured, gobs of yall did back in the days before cheap 4channel RC.
Flying can be cheap, $7 engines in $5 of balsa glued up.... no FM freq conflicts/hits with CL
Heck, you guys even use $3/oz glue rather than $3/quart whiteglue

Stickbuilder

Yeah and I remember earning a man's wages of $1.00 per hour as well, so even at $10.00 for a Cox Thimble Drome powered brick on a string, it was not cheap. My first radio system cost $250.00 for a 2 tube set. Still at the buck an hour earnings....

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

KidEpoxy

$10 planes werent cheap back in the days of $1 wages?
Or $7 engines arent cheap right now in the days of $6 minimum wage?
.... cox website [link=http://www.coxmodels.com/prodinfo.asp?number=008901]$6.99 SureStart049[/link]

I know everyone is mandated to buy $150 4strokes or $200 Lipo-Brushless setups... but the aeromodeling that was done on the cheap back in the day is still being done. CL & FF still get pages of coverage in MA, even without $200ARF & $300raido.... & $200clubs

Yall need to examin you Flying Costs vs Clubbing Cost ratio... cause $200 clubbing to fly sub$20 planes seems high to me. Sure your $3000 Turbines and 40%ARFs with 12 digital servos makes the club look cheap.




Anyhoo, enough of this tangent for now
OP asked why clubs are expensive,
and we found out its because some folks want tons of amenities & facilities,
while other clubs just want a place they are allowed to fly.

ToyDestroyer

Elitism at its best!!! Sorry that you feel others are below you and their hobby does not count as a hobby to you. Your attitude is why many electric fliers stay away from clubs. I have many gas planes but I enjoy my electrics much more. Nothing beats going to the school yard for the afternoon and flying slowly around the field or buzzing around it for that matter. By the way your big expensive plane is also a TOY!!! I see no need to go to an expensive elitist club to fly when I have plenty of places to fly locally that cost me nothing more than I already pay in taxes.

By the way before you spit out such nonsense maybe you should look up the definition of hobby. I will help.

hob·by1 Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hob-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -bies.
1. an activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main occupation: Her hobbies include stamp-collecting and woodcarving.

Seems to me that at least some electric fliers pursue the skill of flying for pleasure or relaxation.

KidEpoxy

lets see if that kind of talk is upsetting to folks:

Do any of you really think that owning an ARF constitutes a hobbyist? I don't really think so.
is it friendly unoffensive chat when targeted at the majority?
Rockem Sockem Robots is a toy... CL Combat isnt?

What if we take the servos & ESC out of the GWS warbirds & flew motor-on-switch CL Combat with them?
Toy or Aeromodeling? When is a 27" span plane not a parkfier... do we have to see the price tag to determine if a 27" plane is worthy of the Nautilus Club?

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

[quote]ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy


yes that would be true on private land, but the same not true on a public land as some would seem to think.

A bunch of guys get together put a flying site on public land, its public land, given for speical use of the public, not abunch of guys who privatize it. Things get real clear when you read THE LEASE given by the govt agency to the modelers.

Sayings Like " For greater Public use of the land" and for "recreational use only"...so when these "Privateers of public land" start charging , raising rate's, its no longer for "greater public use" nor "recreation", they turn it into a little private company of their own and that does not benefit the new modeler trying to use his public land to fly his plane on nor the hobby.

pilot727

pilot 727 said no such thing.

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

I think that this thread has just about ran it's course. I was hoping that I could just let this thread run and not have to get involved, but it's my opinion that several members are going to keep changing the direction of the discussion in order to continue to stir up trouble. That's not what these threads are for. I think that this thread has just about ran it's course and I don't see anything else coming from it. Therefore I'm going to lock this thread down.

Ken