Hmmm... I guess your admonishments are much more germane. Please forgive us for discussing the how and whys of introducing Park Flyer Pilots to flying. Btw that is a subject misnomer since park flyers must already know about flying[X(].

Now, of course, if you had wished to discuss Introducing Park Flyer Pilots to flying the AMA/club way, you would be better received with your previous rant and admonishments.

I started this thread having responded to the thread about clubs allowing PPP to join.

The intention of developing the PPP program by the AMA IMO is to open an avenue to those who would like to provide a flying site for the "Park Flyers" the term in this context I believe is intended to include those who are just starting out with one of the small RTF aircraft on the shelves for under $200. Originally I was disturbed by the move to develop a separate program with a "cheap insurance" and I considered it not to be a move in the interest of getting these newbie pilots started out on the right foot. The concerns to the existing clubs are a topic of the other thread.

I was under the impression that the AMA ought to be concerning itself with getting people started in the hobby not just insuring them. There have been notices from the AMA to clubs to partner with the Park Flyers and explore how the clubs might be of assistance. The attention seems to be placed on sites not getting the newbies started. Well my experience is that with a helping hand a number of these newbies have gained interest in the sport and have stepped up to larger models and joined the club. Those I have started that are continuing to fly their small park flyers at other locations and haven't joined are doing so in a safe manner as far as I have observed.

I came to realize that the PPP program may well be an effort on the part of AMA to retain membership (income) from all those past members who are not flying at the clubs anymore. Many have found the new generation of Park Flyer handier to keep their interest in the sport with a break at lunch time or a stop on the way home. Having a site for PPP will not in itself address all the prospective new entrants into the hobby. But who out there will lift a hand to get them started on the right foot? I can surely see that many clubs may not wish to identify these facts and react. Heck the little toys just get in our way. We already have a field what would we want another for?

All of these concerns could be addressed at the local level (notice I did not say at the club level because club politics and personalities often speak of supporting the hobby but in the end spend more time just talking).

Now back to the task.

camW,

I think your efforts are noble and on target. Another way we as AMA members can help these new flyers is to go out and fly with them and share what we can bring to the table. I truly enjoy flying at venues other than just the traditional club sites and truly enjoy the enthusiasm as well as the people I meet. As a group we should also stand behind the individuals that persue this great hobby.

Jug-

I really doubt that PPP fields are in the future at all, much less representative of the future of aeromodeling. This is off-topic of what camW wanted to discuss in this thread, but I'll join you in another thread if you want to discuss the mythical PPP field.

Abel

This sounds like a great program. I hope you will be very successful in helping these new pilots get off to a good start and that you will see a fair number of them become members of your club.

Let us know how it works out.

Cam I know you want to just discuss how a club can get these guys into there clubs and help them to get started. INS is the way. No one wants to end up having to pay 1800.00 or so out of pocket for flying into someones car or them. That is the very best way to be able to offer them something they know the need. Most don't think they need the guidance of anyone for the flying part, or a place to fly. What they need is for this program from the start to cover claims that folks turn in. I am not talking false claims but for the guys that have an accident such as the reciever in there new RTF goes bad and the plane gets away from them. If a member of a local club could honestly say guys we can offer you INS that WILL cover you then that would be the best offer out of the club to begin with. So I don't see how mentioning INS is NOT what your wanting to hear. Most me espesially was informed by the Club Prez. that the main great thing about AMA was the INS and that you really need it. I joined just for that fact. From EXP. I found out that it is bougus for the most part. Now if the would just make it your primart ins. for RC then more and more would join and not even think about it. They are going to have to step up and make it alot easier to use what most think they are paying for to begin with. For me and most guys such as myself that just enjoy flying and started with a park flyer, had the AMA just paid the claim i turned in they would have had a life member. Now I just joined just in case i want to go somewhere else to fly. Same with the Park guys if you could prove to them the INS is worth having I would bet that 90% would join. That is what a club could offer to get these guys in. Without that all you have to offer is a flying facility and a magazine (p guys would not get as often). This is your main goal is to get them joined up and that my man IMO is the best way. Cause most have someplace to fly or will find one anyway and don't want someone telling them HOW.
The 1800 is what it cost me to repair a friends car that i stuck my plane thru the roof of. And that was when i was flying my very first glow plane. Within 30 sec. I had an experienced club member standing right beside me helping me get the plane ready. But I had been flying a Super Cub and the plane i had used rubber bands on the wings just like the SC I and the experienced club member did not realise you needed alot more rubber than the Cub did lol.
Like i said had they stepped up and paid the claim as they should for any AMA member without hesitation if witneses can verify your claim then man they would have an explosion of sign ups. THAT WOULD BE THE BEST OFFERING ANY CLUB COULD MAKE. It seems your not interested in getting them to join the local club just the PPP and having that to start would be great.

Kid Chuckles

I refer back to a previous statement

Foremost in my mind is that we enthusiasts make an effort to help these newbie flyers have a successful and safe flying experience. Whether they join the club or not is not my primary concern. I applaud the member who visits the local fields away from his club to assist the newbies.

We can't scour the country side looking for newbie flyers to assist. There are clubs that I expect may not want to take this burden on and will respond

I wonder if the member who visits the local fields is a member of such a club. While the clubs may not be prepared to take the effort to lend a hand to these newbies maybe members of the club are prepared to.

I approached a couple of members in our club to help on Saturday mornings and came up with a program outlined in the second paragraph of my first post on this thread with a link to an invitation to the newbies being distributed at our LHS. This approach I expect is only one way to get the invitation out.

I am interested in hearing what others are doing or considering.

Our club is the most receptive of any club...can't get more receptive! At our local hobby shop they are told where we are and are invited to come fly with us...indefinitely...no need to even join the club but invariably if they like the experience they usually join the club as well as the AMA...up until now, at the full membership level but this PPP stuff has caused a bit of consternation on their part.

One club I belonged to not long ago had a more closed approach and actually desired to keep the membership level low...consequently there were many hoops to jump through comparatively. I think most clubs will follow that pattern closer than not. Then they will come here and talk about the falling AMA numbers and declining interest in the hobby…go figure.

It has been very rewarding watching park flyers advance to some of the most sophisticated and demanding models to replace the foam they started with. Our club has found the formula to grow the hobby as well as the AMA.

Am I right in understanding that your invitation is the general type that those interested are welcome to come out to the field and if someone might be around that is willing to put them on a buddy box as a guest? or Is your invitation for the public to bring their new plane out to the field and someone if available will help them get it in the air (buddy box or not)?

Cam,
If you go to the AMA website and look up " Introductory Pilot Program" You will find they have a program that if you sign up a pilot in your club for 5 bucks he can teach anyone to fly at no charge for AMA insurance for any legnth of time just so that the training pilot is standing next to the trainee, buddy box or no.

That is great JUG how many come from the HS out to your facility? Our club i think would have no problem at all for someone to come out and do the same but at the same time are just not going to search them out at all. And man i think if we could get the guys from the park to join our club and we do require AMA card, but it would about double membership. The field is great size for the PF it is fine for most glow or gas planes but is not just a long runway. Maybe 300 ft. but if guys fly like myself that fly some hot landing planes i need 600ft. lol. Just everything i have said or done has not worked. I think the club members should come to them and fly and maybe get themselves aqainted and assure the fella's that they want and need there PF'S. That is about all I can think of at this time anyway.

kid chuckles,

It's real simple. You get a club member to sign up for the Introductory Pilot program. Have a flyin at your field and invite all the PFers. Let them fly all they want while your intro pilot stands next to them. You can get as many pilots as you can to sign up for this program as intro pilots, it costs five bucks per pilot. All the PFers are then covered by AMA insurance each and every time they fly under the tutelege of the introductory pilot.

My question in my last post was directed to littlecrankshaf

I am interested what the invitation to "come fly with us" included.

Jugflier - I am well acquainted with student training and the availability of insurance through the Introductory Pilot program which by the way limits the coverage period to 60 days from the start date reported. Generally we would consider utilizing the program if we have a number of students on hand. If we are working with a couple on a single introductory flight we don't bother.

Many of us have offered to provide a newbie a chance behind the sticks and while this can certainly stimulate interest its only a part of what can be done to get a newbie off on the right foot. Over the past years we have seen a number of people showing up with the RTFs seeking assistance in getting their aircraft in the air. Trimming and demonstrating how to hand launch some of the smaller Park Flyer types is a common concern. Many of these small birds fly a bit faster than a new pilot may be capable of handling and require a greater area than they may have thought. These two factors alone can lead a newbie without any guidance into a dangerous situation.

While it would certainly be nice for the newbie to have insurance in case he injures someone it would be better for him and us if he was introduced to some safe practices and some assistance in learning how to control the aircraft.

Teaching a new pilot to fly a 40 size aircraft requires a number of lessons and learning to control an aircraft of that size should be performed at the Club field.

These smaller Park Flyer type aircraft can be simpler to fly and may stand up to some abusive landings. In one morning ( 1-2 hours ) a newbie can be provided enough information and hands on training to greatly improve his chances of future success as a pilot and with a much greater understanding of how to fly without endangering the public.

Jugflier

I think you are missing the point of this thread. People are purchasing these small RTF Park Flyers and without guidance running out to the largest available space and throwing that new aircraft in the air. There are a number of possible outcomes ....hopefully he has a good flight and gets hooked on his new recreation.....or after launching his aircraft it flies out of control and crashes .....or possibly before crashing strikes somebody who was watching from the sidelines.

These new pilots will not think of waiting for your club to hold a fly in. If we can get our hands on some of these newbies before they run out on their own we might help the newbie become a pilot and possibly someone who can help others or point them our way for assistance with their start in flying.

Our approach is based on affording the introductions on a Saturday morning but if contacted by an excited newpilot yearning to get started we might try and meet up sooner.

If I understand your question correctly my answer is a resounding yes on both counts. Not really sure why you would have such questions since it seems perfectly plausible and reasonable for the affirmatives. It really ought to be that way...shouldn’t it? Any other way would seem a little odd to me.

Just for clarity though, my first response to your original query was in regard to new or even experienced Park Flyers but our invitation is definitely not limited to just that one aspect of the hobby.

I think we could hold a fly-in and they would still not come. There is no reason why they would not other than they just don't want to. They to me feel pressured or intimidated by the club people that have been flying for sometime, and fly glow only planes. Now could i do the same send in the 5.00 and be covered while not at an AMA field but at the soccer field? If so i may just send my money in or does the club have to do it? IF these guys knew as long as i was beside them while flying they were covered then maybe that would let them see just what the AMA could provide and me being a member of the local club might be able to persuade them. Especially if i could get other club members to do the same.

I understand why camW asked his question.

There are many clubs who will not accept, train or even test fly a plane using a radio system that can not accept a buddy box.

There are clubs who will not accept ANY plane on 27 MHz.

There are many clubs that will provide flight assitance to a guest and/or flight instruction only by appointment and sometimes only on certain days and only by certain designated people.

And, of course, there are many clubs which have to restrict the type of planes that are flown due to local restrictions. Ours, for example, can not allow fuel powerd planes to fly based on landlord restrictions.

We are about to attend an RC fair at the local aviation museum. We will be handing out cards offering a free flight lesson to anyone, but the back of the card explains that there are boundries on what can be flown at the field and they have to contact me, as the coordinator first.

If you are correct in this, then I really don't get it. Why would they feel pressured or intimidated because of a power source?

CamW,
Since you are now familiar with the Intro Pilot Program, give a standing invitation for every person who buys an electric or glow plane from your LHS and let your intro pilot take them up for free. This isn't rocket science. You don't need a fly-in to use the intro pilot program.

Since you reply was directed to me. Here goes…


Previous point;
“...consequently there were many hoops to jump through comparatively. I think most clubs will follow that pattern closer than not. Then they will come here and talk about the falling AMA numbers and declining interest in the hobby…go figure.”

Thanks! You proved my point.

Yes, most clubs lack what it takes to truly advance an ever greater hobby base. You are part of one of those. I think if you truly desired you might could make your site at least electric powered friendly or even better yet...who knows... but alas you probably have what you want in a flying site or you would make a change one way or another...no escaping the truth no matter what you understand.

We do fly electic at our site as well as gliders. Just no fuel planes. Land lord says no.

But is it electric friendly(key word) or do those that wish to fly there need to jump through a few hoops?

At my field Park Flyers do not have to join the club or the AMA...although those that desire to stay in the hobby usually join the club as well as the full open status AMA level or will go on to fly at their private locations with their acquired skills but either way they have a very positive outlook on clubs and the AMA from then on.

Truth may be Truth, but BUSINESS is BUSINESS.

While I have worked for years promoting the sport of model aviation, I also understand the BUSINESS of that promotion. For example, when I bought 100 acres of prime farmland, and sold 30 acres to the RC club at same price I paid, that was PROMOTION of the Hobby/Sport. When I held their mortgage, that was BUSINESS. I instituted a Deed Restriction prohibiting any full scale man-carrying machine operation on the facility without my permission each and every time such might happen. That was BUSINESS. In fact, early on, a group decided they would join the club and use it for those parachute engine powered things, whatever you call them. When one, not knowing my position, started talking to me about such, and I informed him of the Deed Restriction, he really went ballistic with a few choice words of anyone that would think of such. When he was informed that he was talking to the "one", then there was no more talk. That was BUSINESS that kept a group from trying to take over the club with the possibility of eliminating "model" airplanes. []

So, all you great HOBBY PROMOTERS go out and get all these economically deprived PPM groups into your club. Then a few will maneuver (maybe become full voting members) get on the Club's Board, and first thing you know, those who you so kindly took under your wing, will be the bosses and YOU will be voted out onto the street as your good field will be restricted to the small electrics qualified under the PPP. That too is BUSINESS for those that let emotion for the "underprivileged" overrule good business practices.

Personally I admire electrics. That is NOT the problem under discussion here. However, I don't admire social programs designed by someone else, especially if I have to pay for, administrate, and/or manage them. Just remember those statements, "We're the IRS / FAA, and we come to HELP YOU!" [:'(] So, go ahead and do as you think best, however if in a few years you find yourself on the outside, looking in, well then that will be your doings.

Jugflier

You may want to read my opening posts on this thread. You suggested inviting the newbies to the Fly In .... I stated that assistance has to be more readily available. Accordingly we are offering the Saturday morning program.

Kid Chucles

You have brought up a very interesting question which I have this morning put to the AMA. I have asked that consideration be given to Club Introductory Pilot Instructors to be allowed to provide instruction to pilots of the Park Flyer aircraft which fall within the limitations of the PPP at sites considered suitable for the Flying of Park Flyers ( as defined under the Park Flyer Safe Operating Recommendations and AMA National Safety Code).

I expect this is where the AMA will have to consider their past plea for the partnering between Park Flyers and Clubs per their document [link=http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/713.pdf]" RECOMMENDATIONS FOR AMA CHARTED CLUBS IN PARTNERSHIP WITH PARK FLYERS"[/link]" .

Instructing another pilot utilizing a Buddy Box can be performed by any AMA insured member since he remains ultimately the Pilot in Control at the club field or away. If he release control by handing over the transmitter he is no longer directly in control and there sits the question of coverage for both him and the student.

I look forward to the AMA responses next week.

Intro Pilot Instructors should meet the qualifications outlined by the AMA and I expect the site away from the club used for Park Flying has to meet the criteria above.

I imagine coverage could be extended by the insurers provided there are guidelines. Let us see what comes forth from the Academy.

It seems i have helped steer this thread after all.