Lynner532

I'm sure this is a topic that has been covered before, but times (and AMA policy) change so I figured I would ask for some feedback.

We have a beautiful facility on pretty much wide open land, but a BMX bike track recently opened to the East of us so we instituted a no fly zone so that we didn't fly in their vicinity.

Problem is, we have a handfull of members that seem to ignore the rule. I can understand someone just not realizing they've flown past the boundary, especially if they appologize and try not to do it again when corrected, but some guys just don't get the importance of following the rule and when corrected they toss out excuses which usually fall in the "I didn't see anybody over there" category or something along those lines.

Bottom line is there's a very real chance that complaints from the BMX facility about safety concerns could easily jeapordize the clubs future. The fly zone restrictions are really not bad...most folks have no trouble staying within the boundaries especially since we don't have any restrictions on the West end of our runway.

So my question is, have you had simlilar issues at your field and how have you dealt with it? Has your club implemented a zero tollerance policy and came up with some method of enforcing? Did you weed out the few bad apples and if so how did you do it (are there AMA policies we could cite)? Did your club eventually close because of safety reports to the county? Any other approaches?

This will be a topic of discussion at our next club meeting so I'd like to get some ideas, which are usually not in short supply here .

Thanks...

timothy thompson

My Feedback: (1)

ISNT BMX WAY MORE DANGEROUS AND WERE YOU NOT THERE FIRST

DavidAgar

My Feedback: (108)

Our club has some no fly restrictions at our field. If a member is habitial about breaking the rules, our club has the right to suspend the pilot for a period of time or forever if the problem persists. We have discovered that explaining the rules and why they are in place has lead to no continued problems at all, but we are ready to take action if the need arises. It is best to work with your neighbors both in a safety mode as well as a we want to get along with you attitude, it will go alon g way. Good Luck, Dave

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

we shoot them. 1st infraction, that way, there is no second occurrence and it goes a very long way towards discouraging the others from trying it

what do you expect a club to do? ya got no no ability to physically restrain the folks, and ya can't just grab the tx outa their hands. even if ya got no fly zones listed as ordinances, with the govmt body that controls such things where ya are, calling the cops out on em to enforce such, just results in bad PR for the club.

KidEpoxy

I disagree with Tim
I seriously doubt any Pilots could be injured by a stray/out-of-control BMX bike,
whereas I am not familliar with a flying club that has never had a plane unintentionally come down off the runway due to "dumbthumb"/Spiked/StructuralFailure/DeadStickShort. If there wasnt a risk, we wouldnt see the Assumed Risk lawyerspeak, and we certainly wouldnt need $mils insurance.

BMX: $mils liabilty insurance not req
AMA: you get the idea

Tim, just because you have previously been flying over land you dont own/have permission, doesnt give you the right to fly over land you dont own/have permission. You cant seriously be thinking you are allowed to just fly over other folks property because you were here first.

- -

No Fly Lines must be upheld.
Tell them
"No BS'ing, fly within the lines or dont fly....
or have the club move the lines to your liking.
But the line is there now, and we all have to stay inside the lines"

busted2props

My Feedback: (9)

HUH? Fly! If the area is not in the final approach course or departure corridor, why worry? Don't live or fly on "What If?"! There are alot of airfields with departure corridors towards very busy roadways, same with the final approach. So, which is worse, your small area of BMX or the critical phases of flight? If your club was not asked to implement a no fly zone, then don't. Yeah, maybe bad manners, but so is theirs.

Lynner532

We seem to have some differences of opinion...very interesting. Keep 'em coming...

busted2props

My Feedback: (9)

Oh, BTW, should have the no fly zone, it must (should) be honored by all, with the exception of "Oh it just got away from me for a second, but I got it back and I'll try not to let it happen again." Rules is rules, but let's not get ridiculous with them. Let's not forget what's good for me is also good for you.

abel_pranger

That's the ticket. Flying in no fly zones might cause them to get into a liability situation. Shoot them before they hurt themselves. []

Abel

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

We hollar "KLONDIKE!!!"

A few years ago some of us decided to berate people who fly over the pits, and made it a habit to demand Ice Cream Bars from anyone who flies behind the pilots.

I don't think ANYONE has actually delivered Klondike bars, but it's enough incentive to make 'em think about keeping the plane out over the flying area.

Good luck,
Dave Olson

Lynner532

Its still early and I hope more folks chime in but from the few posts so far here's what I'm seeing shaping up.

There are I think 3 camps of thought here:

1) Respect the fact that our planes can cause injury/damage and that people not in this sport are afraid for their safety if our planes are flying overhead or close. Be a good neighbor and avoid flying near their site.

2) The flying club was here first, stand up to those bikers..their sport isn't safe anyway.

3) Shoot 'em down (I assume that means shoot down the planes that fly out of bounds).

Not surprisingly, that mimics the thoughts at our club. I would say that the pilots that are not obeying the rules are primarily in the 2nd category of thinkers. They don't believe those rules are needed so they aren't inclined to follow them.

The problem with that is a few people that think like category 2 are putting the clubs future at risk for everyone.

So it comes back to how do you get everyone to really understand the need for the no fly zone rules, and what, specifically, have other clubs done to address the problem of some pilots ignoring them.


Scar, saw your KLONDIKE suggestion after posting this...I'll have to think about it, there might be something there...

kid chuckles

All you can do is set guideline and tell each individual your going to abide by them or not fly here. And stick to it. Once anyone is asked to leave for flying in this manner the others will surely comprehend the meaning of don't fly over that way.

mcmcintyre

Our club has an instructor go stand with people who fly into or near the no fly zone on a regular basis. The implication that they need help seems to remind most people to follow the rules and to tighten up the areas in their flying that might have gotten a little loose. We have had a member who had been flying independantly for a long time go back on the buddy box voluntarily due to issues with depth perception. Sometimes the problem isn't always what it seems.......

KW_Counter

I was visiting the club site in Fallbrook, CA, north of San Diego.
They have a No Fly Zone that is over Interstate 15.
I don't remember their exact rules but they range from daily suspension to expulsion from the club.

I'm sorry you got so many smart aleck and inconsiderate responses.
We need to police ourselves or we will be pushed out of our sites.
As the world grows in population we are running into more obstacles to the large spaces we need to fly.
We are running into problems keeping our fields just to due to this growth.
I f we decide to be butts about the issue we will lose them faster.

You need to get this issue corrected rapidly. Hopefully it can be done cordially but don't make that a criteria.

Good Luck,
KW_Counter

busted2props

My Feedback: (9)

Hmmm? Let's see, established flying field being infringed upon by a BMX bike track. That, in itself is interesting. Well, not really, as there are many flying fields with people walking around, biking, having picnics, socializing and they are oblivious to the aircraft flying overhead. So, I ask you, shall we have no fly zones anywhere anyone may wander? NO!!! Once again I say, "You cannot live your life on what if." If you do, then you will never get out of bed 'cause you might slip and fall and break your neck!!!

Now, I am as much for safety as the next person. But I must draw lines at some of the most insane things I hear or see. This BMX bike track should not be of anyone's concern. Continue to fly and have fun. Then if it comes into contention, negotiate a flying boundry. Until such, let it go.

Now for the rules in place. It is my experience that those who complain the loudest are the ones that break the rules most often. Or they will complain about how Fred flies his plane in close proximity of blah, blahthen go out and intentionally do what they have complained about!!!! Let it go...If you can't fly, then don't. Don't complain about those who can and maintain control of the model.[>:]

Now I know I will catch alot of flak over this, but please keep in mind I fly with the reasonable man theroy. I just don't need nor like the Nazi mentality. What's good for you is good for me...Don't complain about the guy who skirts the edge of the pits at altitude, and then land your helicopter in the pits....Come on!
(This is in no way directed a KW. Just the way the system works.)

804

My Feedback: (1)

To me, the reasonable man theory would hold that since the BMX track is other peoples' property, it is only courteous and respectful to obey the no-fly zone.

"Nazi mentality" is a pretty strong term to use for enforcing a reasonable club rule to help ensure the club's future.

If most club members follow the rule, then the reasonable thing to do is enforce it

Hope that sounds reasonable

busted2props

My Feedback: (9)

804 you're pretty good. I say don't establish the "no fly zone" until it is needed. I have no idea where this track is (do you?) and how it affects daily flying.

And yes, I would abide to the no fly zone, if it were established.

804

My Feedback: (1)

Lynner532

To clarify, the no fly zone was negotiated and established back when the BMX track was being built. The problem we're having is getting a minority of the members to obey what has already been established...

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

You can't have a safe and successful club without rules. Every club I've ever joined required me to read the rules and sign a form stating that I understood them. If there are members who think that rules are for other people, but not for them, then they should no longer be members. Period. They can go fly at some rogue field. The future of your club depends on the enforcement of its rules. How to enforce them is up to each club, but it becomes clear pretty soon who the self-centered, mentally challenged jerks are, and every club seems to have at least one or two.

To put it another way, when someone makes the conscious decision to join a club and pay the membership fee they are entering a social contract with the other members (even if they don't think they are). The problem is that some people are simply incapable of comprehending the concept of the common good. Sure, they like the fact that the field has tables, chairs and a shelter; that the grass is cut and the portajohn is maintained, but it's beyond their abilities to realize that other club members made all that available for them to use. It really makes you wonder why on earth they join clubs in the first place.

David

Lynner532

Well put!

Hossfly

To me that relates to Captain Edward J. Smith's ideas concerning accidents at sea. Prior to 10 April 1912, Captain Smith boasted that with 40 years at sea, he had never seen an accident at sea that took human life. Maybe that contentment was a factor in what appears to be one final big one on April 14, 1912.

One can never know just how much life is prolonged by acting before the actual "NEED" is readily apparent.

Hossfly

EXCELLENT, rainedave. My club NEEDS YOU! No joke, the past 3.5 years has seen just what you say. Forget the rules, screw the organization, and the chosen few pats each other's back. Un believable what a few can do when they get the power, but then look at the AMA EC. [:-] SAD!

Lynner532

Well, here's an update...

We are having a meeting this Saturday and this topic is at the top of the agenda.

All week long members have been sending email comments on the situation to the club president and he's been forwarding to the entire club. There are strong opinions on both sides, some that make you scratch your head and say how can someone really see it that way...but by my count about 85% of those responses are in line with the "be a good neighbor and follow the club rules or go fly somewhere else" sentiment. This process has brought to a head something that has been festering for quite a while. It's a pain to have this kind of conflict, but the entire club now has a much better sense for how serious we all are about following this simple rule. Here are some of the constructive suggestions that have been vetted via this process:

1) Unless you own the property you really must proactively be a good neighbor. Who was there first has no weight. Whether or not other activities in the area or any more or less safe has no weight. The threat of being told to shut down your club and move somewhere else is very real and taking a "don't worry about them...just fly" approach is only going to accellerate the closing of the club. Here's a quote from one of my fellow club members that seems to sum this up nicely:

"This is County land, first come does not count for anything, we are ONLY guests and must
abide by AMA and County rules for the safety of all persons in the area or lose permission
to play there, simple as that. "

2) Keep rules to a minimum, put them on paper and have every club member physically sign off that they will abide by them.

3) Enforce the rules...this is through a combination of a Safety Officer (one of the most experienced/respected pilots) and by-laws that give the club officers the authority to suspend or expel someone for flagrant/repeated violations.

4) Make the "special" rules highly visible by putting them on a large sign that every pilot can see as they taxi out to the runway...

5) If someone breaks a rule, club members need to TACTFULLY correct them on the spot (point to the special rules sign and yell KLONDIKE...see post #10)...likewise, the club members being corrected need to accept the criticism without getting defensive.

6) Club officers need to believe that the rules are important and convey that consistently to the club members. It's a thankless job, especially during time of conflict, but without a strong president leading the club through it, the issue will continue to fester and damage club unity.

Through this week's email communications I'm already seeing a coming together of the opposing sides on this issue. The offenders are not really the "rule ignoring *******s" the festering resentment had made them out to be, and the proponents of adhering to the rules are not just "whiners". I'm hopefull at this weekend's meeting we'll come up with a sensible way to adress this going forward. I'll update you all on the outcome. Thanks for ALL the opinions...this has been a short but good thread!

busted2props

My Feedback: (9)

804, thank you. I would abide by an already established no fly-zone. Maybe I misread somewhere. My Nazi mentality comment was for those that berate for the way one flys and then goes out and does the same thing if not worse than you did; or tells you he/she doesn't like the way you fly. Well, I have found that those people don't fly very well themselves and 'cause pilots to take 3 or 4 steps back from the pilot station and land until that individual lands. Sorry for any scuffs on anyones toes. My personal preception/problem.

HOSSgood one! However, I will not live my life on what if's. (You were a pilot, I was an air traffic controller. What IF? You know you can't fly that way, and I know I couldn't control traffic that way!) Should there be sufficient evidence for the need of a no-fly zone or any other safety precaution, I will back/abide by/support it to my best of my abilities. Cheers.

Lynner532Good luck with your meeting. Don't allow the few rebels to control the proceedings. If they continue to willfully disobey the established no fly zone, then sorry, harsh measures are to be considered. Once again, good luck!

Edited to add the Pilot/ATC stuff.

Mean Monte