I think you're confusing "feathering the nest" with "a feather in your hat".

A thread that ended 6-9 months ago pre-dates my involvement with this forum, so without doing some digging I don't know what was said. If the question has already been answered then it probablly doesn't need to be asked again. It would be interesting to see some AMA representative actually said that or if that is just your interpretation.

Bob, for me to pose that question to Mark would be a waste of time. There is no way possible to prove what their intentions were. No one has made any direct accusations, we have only been trying to point out that the conditions were just right to make limburger, if you know what I mean.

So you were just indicating that such was a possibility, not something that you believe is a fact? If so, then I probably took your comments further than I should have.

It would be interesting to know, though, how the limits were determined, ie why 2/60 rather than 1/40 or any other combination. Your comments have peaked my interest. I've had one occasion to email a question to Dave Matthewson, and his response was quick, cordial and invited further question if I had any. I think I'll ask. Stay tuned.

BTW, have you or anyone else heard anything from Horrace since Ike passed by? I believe he's located just north of Houston and was probably very close to the eye or what was left of it as it passed. We lived in Mobile, AL for 25+ years and I have first hand experience as to what these things can do, even 30-50 miles inland. Moibile is located at the northern end of Mobile Bay, and the downtown area is right on the water. It's ~30 miles inland from the gulf itself, though, similar to the Houston situation. In 1979 Fredrick came ashore as a Cat3 right up the bay and much of Mobile was without power for 2+ weeks.

Knowing Horrace, his house is made out of prestressed concrete with a 5 mega-ton rated lid in the basement. Let's keep good thoughts that all is well.

If the PPP was looking more like a gold mine, I think the chain of events that led to it's conception would be of more interest. Last I heard there are about 600 merry souls in the program, a good percent I'll bet are "ex open" types whose interests are fullfilled by PPP now. These guys are flying their 2 pounders at AMA club fields, so no harm, no foul.
Until we hear about an errant 2 pounder flying into a bus full of nuns at Golden Gate Park, the 2 pound, 60 mph limit will go unchallenged.

I haven't heard from Horrace either.

I wonder why the AMA decided to disallow 1/2A wet powered models in the PPP. They can easily be built to perform in the same envelope as do the sparkys. I wonder if the influence from the 2 major importers had anything to do with that decision., since neither Horizon nor Hobbico offers many models for that power. The better .049 and .051 engines have very effective mufflers, so I don't think that noise would have been a great factor. Kind of makes you wonder though does it not?

Bill, AMA 4720

I assume it was noise, but I haven't heard an .049 running since I was 13 or so. Long time ago.

I think alot more will come to light when we find out a little bit more info on one certain individual here.

I've been looking into 1/2A motors myself lately. According to one fellow, they can't be found much anymore. Maybe the PPP originators seen the writing on the wall?

Frank

Do 1/2a control line planes qualify for the park flyer program? How about other control line planes that meet the weight and speed restrictions? If not why?

As long as they fit this description, then yes, they do.


[link]http://www.modelaircraft.org/parkflyer.aspx[/link]

Frank

Frank
That makes no sense. Why ban something based on it being not very popular.
It is not supposed to be that the PPP originators were trying to forcast what to stock in their store, they were supposed to be helping the AMA <not themselves at the comapny level> and the members. To carry the concept that what is declining in popularity to other modeling aspects, you would have us ban FF and plansbuilding: Both are declining in popularity so should be banned by AMA, right? Writing on the wall, get them banned quick before they disappear.


Unless you look in obscure and archaic places like.... [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0093p?&C=GCA]Tower's 0-.19 Engine Page[/link],
where they sell the AP061, AP09, and TT07... all with mufflers & throttles
or maybe if you want a cox049 you could [link=http://www.coxmodels.com/prodinfo.asp?number=008901]go to cox & get one for $7[/link]
all of which would fit nicely in a 2/60 small plane
(good luck getting a plane over 60 with the TT07 PurpleTurd)

Then there are hi perfomance brands, but lets not go there

Frank
the guys that dont carry 1/2A - A glow engines will be happy to tell you you cant even find them for sale.
However, TOWER is selling them and Cox is selling them direct. You have heard of Tower or Cox, right? Last time I was in a Hobby People (frmly HobbyShack) they had the APs on display retail <yup, the HP engine page has the AP09 & AP061>




Pure hooey you're peddlin.
You know full well the 1/2A glow motors in 1/2A CL dont.
You know the rules prohibit it, dont tell peopple its OK as long as its not prohibited.


2fast-
No, not allowed. The 1/2A CL is prohibited.
The reason it is prohibited is because it is against the rules.[&:]

Ken,

RE 1/2A motors. I wouldn't say it if it weren't true. That's what I was told.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=25

BTW, they aren't banned. They just didn't allow glow motor right from the start. Banned to me means they were allowed at one time, but did something wrong and now they aren't allowed anymore.

Frank

edit for spelling

No problem Frank
Now that you know the truth about 1/2A availability you can tell folks that instead of the misinformation you were told.

Banned is easier to type.
The difference is only relevant to semantic purists, result is the same. No.

Ken,

You bet. I'm on it. I'm checking into the AP motors right now.

Frank

1/2A glow engines are inherently noisy, electric motors are inherently quiet. I don't care what the db meter says about prop noise, etc., 1/2A glow engines are the most annoying to the general population. About 15 years ago, one of my Cox TDs was "exhibit A" in a noise complaint that landed in court, [so that is my criminal past unveiled [8D]].
Anyway, enough bragging ...it is understandable as to why 1/2A glow got excluded from the PPP. I don't see it as a selfish or subversive act.
It was simply more expedient to make the program electric only.

Yes, but expedient to whom? The AMA, or the distributors of the models in question?

Bill, AMA 4720

Bill, they not only had to design a program but also try to sell that program to potential flying sites. I think having screaming 1/2A engines as part of the package would have been a hinderance.

I have a Jett, with the muffler. It's a very quiet engine. The prop noise is much louder than is the exhaust.

Bill, AMA 4720

Pure hooey Ken,
We have some lecky fliers in out club ans some of their stuff is as noisy as my 40 size Mojo.

So 1/2a engines are excluded because of noise, right? The noise from an engine on 30 foot lines doesn't travel near as far as the same engine 200 ft in the air flown by RC over a much larger area.

The AMA supports lots of activities that create much more noise over a much larger area.

Seems like if the intent is to encourage more people to participate in the hobby then the program should support entry level activities no matter what the propulsion method. Noise is a separate issue that is local in nature. Some may fly in areas where noise is not an issue.

Perhaps I have interpreted the intent incorrectly.

2fast,
It appears Combatpig and Kid epoxy have actually made not only and valid point, but a strong argument backs with some facts to prove Hoss's statement. Frankly this thread is an eye opener for me.

Are you speaking of Horrace's statement I quoted in the opening message in this thread?

If so, there has been nothing posted here that comes anywhere near to proving that Mark Smith has been "feathering his nest" due to decisions of the Marketing Committee. Would you please point out these "facts" and how they are proof?

There have been comments made that could lead one to wonder how well thought out some of the decisions may have been, but even that remains a matter of opinion.

I dont see Hoss telling us that Mark took a bag of cash.
I do see Hoss saying he FEELS somewhat used, and asks if you do too.

"AMA Official has partnered with a couple big wigs in the model airplane industry to formulate, initiate, and promote this AMA special privilege group"
Yeah, that has happened.
And Hoss expressed what his feelings are and asks if we feel the same.
I do. Why? I just spent my last few posts explaining why I feel that way.




We seem to be discussing the reasoning behind glows being excluded
as to who's benefit they were: Members, Localities, or FeatherNesters.

The entire rationale of Noise being the reason falls apart
in the light of those same flyers are at noisey glow clubs as members of the program. If the intent and objective of the program was to have discount Quiet Only clubs with Quiet Only members, why would the discount guys be flying at noisey glow clubs for less that standard members?

For a long darn time the AMA has had soaring clubs & electric only clubs. They are standard clubs that have sold themselves as quiet. Why are some of the discount clubs unable to sell themselves as quiet without a national prohibition on glow? Did Vegas Aces have to explain the difference between a 2lb Electric Only AMA Club compared to a PPP Club to the school? or did they say they were a small electric only club with insurance (which is either AMA or PPP). Heck, some folks here went so far as to suggest Vegas Aces club allows models beyond PPP requirements in a recent thread. What was the selling point again? Model limits?

Quiet?
Is a pattern plane noisey? Too noisey to compete?
If there was only some way we could measure the noise of a pattern plane to see if it is too noisey to compete. A quantitative metric we can set a numeric cutoff to.... like the db scale. "... and other quiet means of propulsion." If I put a FrobazFluxCapacitor Drive on my plane, is that quiet? Is it quiet enough? How many DB is PPP "Quiet"?


The limits on PPP didnt focus on the physics involved in 2/60.
The limits on PPP didnt focus on how many db is quiet enough.
The limits on PPP were based on selling what the guys on the commitee had in stock, and excuding the stock of other small plane sellers <AP&TT 1/2A 2/60 small planes>. For a taxfree educational org, seems a lot of science was left out of this plan to subsidize the market leaders

Been around these things to many years and its not being done without one or a few feathering their nests.
Some do it by stealing anothers work an copying it, an some do it by been in cahoots with big companys