I'm not particularly interested in what either you or Horrace "FEELS".

What I'm interested in is anything that substantiates Horrace's claim that the Marketing Committee, and Mark Smith in particular, have personally benefitted from their decisions on the PP program. Horrace and you both may "FEEL" used. So be it....."FEEL" away. But he claims that Mark has "feathered his nest" through his decisions on the Marketing Committee......a clear reference that Mark has used the postion for personal gain.

You seem to agree. But in your response chose to talk only about "feelings", didn't bother to address the central question, and chose to jump in with your typical simple minded obfuscation.

Jugflier thinks it's been proven. I asked him to point out anything that's been said here which would prove that Mark Smith used his position on the Marketing Committee for personal gain.

If you have anything to say about THAT, I'll pay attention. Otherwise all you are doing is trying to push the thread off-topic. You may not like the PPP, you may think it was ill-conceived, and that it will be a failure. None of that is directly related to the question I posed in the initial message. The question I asked of Horrace was to substantiate his claim. If you don't want to speak to that then start your own thread and quit trying to screw this one up and get it locked before Horrace gets straightend out from Ike and has time to get back here to post.

So in reality, all you are doing is speculating.

Don't you think it's more than a bit irresponsible to toss around allegations of using one's postion for personal gain without anything to substantiate it other than your hunch?

I suspect you wouldn't be so cavalier with your comments if Mark had made the same comment about Horrace.

Uhhhh, Bob,

It is not Mark that Ronnie is talking about here. It's someone else who stirs the pot. Again not Mark.

Bill, AMA 4720

I have a large number of 1/2A engines. I think the decision to exclude internal combustion engines from the Park Flier definition was wise. I think the general public person: school principal, soccor mom, councilperson, etc. regards electric and IC power plants quite differently. They see the former as innocous, and the latter as loud and dangerous.

Yepsir.

This might not belong here, but I just read it in your questions to mark smith about hoss's plan


Basically I don't want to see the AMA Pres., Ex. Dir. and CFO rekindle the funded Captive Insurance company and a c-corp to provide a business retirement for a select few. Separating the Chief Financial Officer to an appointed position, away from the elected EVP is, IMO, just another step to that very situation. ++++++++++++


Hoss is a lot smarter than some here give him credit for, and I imagine he can see the writing on the wall for something such as this above to happen. I'd bet a dollar to a donut that he's pretty much right on target with this one.

page10 col2 Summer08 parkiemag <not a quote>
Vegas Aces had concerns they would not be allowed to fly PPP at the school: They even saw the district website had a rule No Aircraft. They contacted and were told "Full size aircraft are not allowed""model aircraft are okay." Now the real question is, did a ppp group put an electric only club where there was no prohibition on glow... and more importantly, did their actions lead to the district taking an anti-glow stance that they didnt have going in?

I hear one major concept of PPP is to get the mythical Urban PPP Clubs that were not available to standard <glow&size> clubs... what just happened to this Glow OK district? That sounded like a terrific place to put a standard club <1/2A & A CL & RC, Rubber & HLG>, and make good neighbors to promote all aspects of the hobby, rather than having AMA Clubs taking actions to get glow banned where it wasnt before.

Again, the Noise arguement is having a hard time holding water,
if the posterchild of Urban PPP Plubs was made where glow was ok.

The school had a rule that no one could fly full size aircraft from their facility?

A school with enough room to land full size aircraft. I'm impressed. Didn't have that at my high school.

Just telling you what I read in the parkie mag.

My experience with the public concerning model airplanes is very very few have any clue as to what powers them be it gas glow or electric and even less concept of the area required to fly them. Several times have had people watch us fly on our 5 acre field with a 1/4 mile open over fly aera in every direction and request we come fly at a function for them. I ask them is there adequate aera and they say oh yes. Go check out the aera and isn't enough room to fly a foamie we would use in the gym during the winter. Most of the people in the suburbs can't figure out water runs down hill! I am sorry but I really doubt a park flyer definition really makes much difference as to someone's opinion of model airplanes, they either think they are all deadly toys or they think all planes are harmless. The AMA is grasping for straws trying to grow the membership with the Wal-mart $30 aero hog crowd. How about getting some actual major news coverage of events like Toledo or Top Gun, a porgram at a national level with the BoyScouts on aviation badges, or working with the universities on avaition related contests? The AMA program to get more involved with the National Park District Directors assocition is a good idea the PPP ain't.

Boy, yer gonna catch it when stl see this ....

What's he gonna catch? Rabies?

It is a shame that we are allowing such silly notions and misconceptions to be perpetuated...after all; collectively we claim to be an academy. 1/2 glow is much safer than electrics for many reasons. Consider this; They can be heard coming and the engine usually instantly quits if it hits something...electrics on the other hand, sneak up and keep grinding…let’s not even talk about the danger of fire from lipos…


Yes a roaring ½ A parkflyer is much safer than a similarly powered electric. Nothing wrong with making a little noise while the sun shines either… Our job is to educate the ignorant…not just give in to erroneous perception…never…ever…no matter what.

It never ceases to be amazing that so many of us will turn their back on a great facet of our hobby in a silly/vain attempt to grow the membership base….why in the he11???? Even at twice the membership level it would be of little consequence in the grand scheme of things…it is all so silly. The only thing that really matters is growing the hobby…not sucking from the hobby to grow the membership as PPP attempts to do. dang

The Hobby is not growing. It is in a decline, and has been for quite some time. If it were growing, you wouldn't see the manufacturers going under as they have been doing for the past several years. Look inwardly for the reason. There is not one reason for the decline, but many. They begin with people dying off, finding other hobbies with which to amuse themselves, short attention spans, and the list goes on. What's the answer? I really haven't a freaking clue. I'll continue to build and fly my own. I've enough engines to do pretty much what I want in the time I hope I still have. I would reccomend that you guys do the same. It does not look pretty. It looks as if there will end up being only 2 distributors to buy from. That means that you will be flying whatever they dictate, because most of you haven't learned to build your own. Enjoy the future. You have made it what it will become.

Bill, AMA 4720

I think if I were courting two of the biggest names in the industry, and they were not feathering my nest I would be angry.

Even if that is true, sprinkling AMA all over one of the facets that has actually been growing (without AMA) is not the answer...


I can see it now....Dad let's get one of those electric airplanes. NO son I think you need a license to fly them...you see that badge on the box...how about we go look at the video games instead...ok

Why we elect to shoot at possibly the only hope we have is astounding…greed is a terrible thing. Leave the entering enthusiasts along…at least long enough for him to get on the hook good…dang.

Actually, I think that the way the conversation goes is something like.....Dad let's get a radio control airplane. No son, you don't want to be a geeky nerd, you don't have time to fool with those. Remember, you have Jr. Pro Football, Karate practice, Soccer, Inline hockey, and I want you to be all the things that I wasn't when I was growing up. Don't forget that girls like Jocks, not boys that play with toy airplanes. Let's go look at the new Madden football game instead. Okay Dad.

I have a Son in law who is an Electrical Engineer. He was a total Geeky Nerd growing up. He was too much a wimp to play any athletic sports, and now he compensates for what he wasn't, by making both my Grandsons play every contact sport that is available. Won't even allow them to have a model airplane. We don't mention it any longer. The sad thing is that one of the boys loves airplanes, and when he is down for a visit, we spend a lot of time at the flying field. He has already soloed, and will eventually probably become involved in the hobby. He will have to be on his own first though.

Bill, AMA 4720

LCS
dont forget the store clerks

Maybe instead of telling folks to "just look for the sticker", they should say
"If you are PPP you may only fly the few with stickers,
if you are full AMA, or not AMA at all, you can fly any small plane in the shop"
Why would the shop owner try to not sell his stock of 1/2A-A glow stuff by only telling folks about one particular kind of planes for parks

Why?
In an amazing coincidence, Horizon & HL dont sell 1/2A-A glow engines so they have no worries about selling their 1/2A inventory.

Maybe it's not a coincidence at all. Not even an evil conspiracy. Maybe, just maybe, the 1/2A stuff is not popular nor profitable enough. Naw, that's not dramatic enough for this crowd.

<post removed by user: I was taking it off topic, and I'm trying to cut down on that>

In view of all the facts....all of the facts are not in view. Dave M. did not attend the infamous PPP summit conferences, his accounts of went on are here say. He is giving us the "Baghdad Bob" eye view of what transpired. Many here are eager to gobble that stuff up. As far as I know, only 3 guys really know the complete truth and only 3 guys ever will.
My best guess is that the program would need to ramp up ten fold to be considered a meaningful blip on the radar. Hmm, did any of the guys who were for this program ever used to work for Convair?

LOL.....I bet most here probably doesn't even know who that is.

I flew on a 440 from Washington (Dulles) to New London, Connecticut in 1963. Watched a stress crack grow in the engine Nacelle all the way up.

Bill, AMA 4720

I do, but then I'm an old guy.

When I was a kid I had a Revell model of a B-58 Hustler. Thought it was the most wicked looking airplane I'd ever seen.

So did I. Still think it is one of the most beautiful planes that was ever built