littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Just put everyone on the honor system...problem solved.

In the final analysis we are all on the honor system anyway... the checking excuse is just that…an excuse to exclude

The Toolman

When you added that (in bold) on there I thought I would reply to you.
You run your club the way you want, an we'll run ours the way we want....problem solved!

KidEpoxy

6) Q: Who will police the flightline to see they only fly appropriate aircraft?
A: If the flightline is organized by an AMA Chartered Club, we ask that the club confirm the status of the member, as they would with any AMA member. Rules or requirements that apply to any AMA member would also be applicable to a Park Pilot member with the additional stipulation that Park Pilot members are restricted to flying models that fit the definition of a park flyer model.

whats with the last 22 words?
in conjunction with the first 21 it comes down to: 21 + 22 = Work(&liability?) for clubs
Looks like Muncie isnt investing too heavily in Honor System stock

But on the bright side, Looks like "Me & Jimmy" are in the clear with
the FPV BuddyUp dynamicly-designated sites [&:]

BillyGoat

Interestingly a fair percentage so far say’s it a complete headache. I’d like to hear specifics… Why/how?

Unless some choose that option just to yank some chain. Gee, can’t imagine that happening in the AMA forum.

MajorTomski

Please read my post above.

You miss my points entirely

The PPP program, if you read the book, never had an intention of merging with exsisting clubs.

It is set up to create PP exclusive clubs.

If you want to fly at my club, pay your dues, all of the dues just like everyone else. The Gross difference is all of $28.05, the cost of taking three people to dinner at Texas Roadhouse once.

If the cost of half a tank of gasoline is the difference between you participating in model aviation or not, then you have got a financial problem that says you shouldn't be in this hobby at all.

I'm really not interested in finding a way for PPP memberst to fly at my field, the same way the AMA leadership was not interested in finding away to bring them into the core of the hobby, the "2,400 chartered clubs" that they ingnored in creating the PPP.

KidEpoxy

uh, that is one of the things that keep folks from liking ama:
Elitist attitude that you cant be in the hobby at all if you are not in AMA.
Some parkie saves up the $125 to get a decent RTF,
and the AMA wants them to increase the cost of getting into flying by almost 50% for the Muncie Fee

The cost of the RubberFF hobby is a drop in the bucket compared to paying for AMA.
The cost to Build & Fly 1/2A CL is just a fraction of the cost of AMA
SO we have an easy way into the hobby by the discount PPP tier
which does nothing to help the RubberFF or 1/2A CL Building guys with far less invested than the eRTF Parkie crowd.


Just for laughs
I should build a 4oz RubberFF and ask one of the guys at the club to "fly it for me"
since I would violate the clubs insurance if I let go of it instead of Jimmy letting go of it .
The guys at the club would have some choice words for PPP logic, I'm sure.

Bob Mitchell

You came back and edited before I had a chance to respond.

If I remember what you said correctly.......

Point taken.

There are possible loopholes in any insurance coverage. I think my basic premise is valid, though. Using insurance other than AMA would create the need for someone in the club to review and verify the insurance. Several have used the argument that accepting PPP flyers into a club would put someone in the position of having to verify that the planes in question met PPP limits. I'm using basically the same argument here, and I suspect that most in leadership positions in an AMA club are in a better position to evaluate a PPP members aircraft than they are to review and accept outside insurance.

The Toolman

Bob, you can spin it anyway ya want, but they aren't welcome at our place without a full open.

MajorTomski

NOT elitist, just simple busness. I suppose you want a cut rate price on your car liscense or your home taxes.

It's just a fee that gets paid. One that was paid for decades by everyone uniformly whether it was a 55 pound monster or a less than 4oz indoor rubberpowered free flight. Yet for decades no one offered a discount nor did any of the participants complain about paying for thier AMA membership. Quite offten the indoor guys pay LOTs more to rent the places they fly in.

Now, magically for some reason $28.05 is keeping hords of new modelers from joining an organization that did most of the leagal groundwork that allows them to fly those models in the US.

And Saving $28.05 is going to make them jump up and make them join an organization they had no interest in joining the first place.

And the AMA IS the CHEAPEST simplest way to get that almighty insurance to cover the landowner. $20.00 a year is a pretty good deal.

Not elitists just simple.

Thomas Solinski
AMA 8026

Bob Mitchell

Ron, I'm really not sure what my comments about AMA insurance vs outside insurance have to do with whether you allow PPP pilots at your field or not. I wasn't advocating that you do or don't. There was a comment earlier in the thread about AMA insurance and "other" insurance and I was speaking to that.

I don't really agree with your club's decision, but it's YOUR club. Why would you take my comments about insurance to be some sort of spin on your club and it's policy on PPP?

The Toolman

Just all your comments in general Bob

Bob Mitchell

OK.

But I hope you see the distinction between disagreeing with a policy, and supporting an independant club's right to run it self as the members see fit.

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

Wow, I see the problem. When a guy in a club says the word "police" well that is a unhealthy club. A club with problems. The guy that feels he needs to be a fun police well ....................... he is the problem. We have no fun police here and everyone gets along with each other. We fly for the fun of it. There was only 2 issues in the history of the club. They were not a big deal. Solve the minor issue and went on to fly.

1. A old guy that was living in the past kept bending our ears about AMA this, Ama that and AMA Hall of fame. He did not fly and everyone heard his story over and over. I tryed to help him by letting him know we just come out to fly and enjoy hanging out. We just want to fly and enjoy the hobby. He left angry and joined a club just north of us. ( Now they were not to happy he showed up there.) Well be is no longer a member there eather. I have no found a club in our area that wants anything to do with him.

2. We had a guy that would not get his AMA. So we had to tell him he could no longer fly until I saw a valid AMA card. But you can still come out and hang out if you wanted. He decided spending the $58 was not such a bad thing after all.

3. How short the grass gets cut. We dicided who cuts the grass decides how short it will be.

So as you can see we have no fun police here. We only have 1 major rule. You must join the AMA. Everything else falls in place. If you see something need to get do then Get er Done. No one need to tell anyone to do anything. We fly for the fun of it. Even the PPP guys.

Crash99

Bob Mitchell

Well, that sounds like a good policy.

KidEpoxy

Crash
Scroll up to the blue text post.
Muncie made it so the clubs have to be the fun police to make sure the PPP guys fly within PPP limits at the club.


Tomski
That would be California: Prop 13, and the 2/3 reduction in car registrations
They wanted the cut rate licenseplates & hometaxes, and they got it,
all californians got it, not just electric vehicle ones . Seems simple enough.

No, its an optional add on to just flying without it.
Lots & lots of folks dont buy that additional DeluxFloormats / TopClearcoat / ExtendedWarranty / AMAInsurance

Guess we are gonna forget about STL and his $16 Hartford way?
...the No-Magazine included Hartford insurance .
(what happened to the line about AMA is not an isurance Co?)

Stickbuilder

I don't know about you, but I sure plan to.

Bill, AMA 4720

MajorTomski

KidEpoxy, I appolgize that my point of view differs with you, I'm sorry that the facts at my field don't fit the PP Program, but I give up, I'm going flying, have a nice weekend

bye

DelRay

The PPP thing is not an issue at our club's field, plain and simple. If you want to fly there, you must be a full AMA member. It's not that they're "not welcome".

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

I have to get to the field as well. Then to a indoor fly event. We still do not need any fun police. I guess we are lucky to have the flyers we have around here.

Crash99

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

You and probably in excess of 99% of the AMA membership. Best I can tell, there's less than 10 people who give a rat's patue and they all post here.

We, my club, welcome all to the hobby regardless of what they fly. We even allolw non-club members to fly with us and use our facilities. Don't let the cynical few ruin your hobby experience and your support of the AMA. They'd b***h if they were hung with a new rope.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

If the OP has a genuine interest in knowing what impact the PPP has had on AMA clubs, it would only cost about $2000-$3000 to print up questionaires and send them out [return postage paid] to every club. From what I've seen around here, PPP activity is non existant......so it is safe to say that their impact on local clubs is right up there with flyers getting struck by lightning.

KidEpoxy

uh, I know the 2 guys that actually cast their EC vote against PPP are not part of the ten guys here.

How could a club somewhere vote to not allow PPP
if there are only 10guys in the whole AMA that dont like PPP?
Did Stick's club let Stick vote a bunch of times to have his club not accept PPP? How could his club choose if Stick is the only one at his club that dont like PPP? What is up with Tomski's club, seems the county(?) gives a patuie yet they dont post here.

Yes, I know a bunch of folks just have too much apathy to look at Right & Wrong.
The 7% ballot return last year made that clear.
As did the apathy about DVDs with safety viloations or Strykers at Vegas Aces.
Sure, lots of folks take the easy road and just choose to turn a blind eye to the wrongs in the world within their influence. Its easier than fixing whats wrong.



<not at anyone in particular>:

However, those that lack the moral fibre to stand up against what they see done wrong
need to quit telling those of us that do stand up and say Hey, Thats wrong, to join them on the easy way out.
Dont instill your apathy into those that still care about right & wrong,
with slogans like Nobody else cares.

Nobody caring is a big part of the problem.

Muncie policy makes the clubs be the fun police, and nobody cares.

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

I don't think you get it. Causing problems in a club is not taking the high road. If someone is flyig a stricker with a PPP membership is no big deal. A guy with a open membership and lands 5% of the time in the pits is a big problem. Don't worrie about the small things.

It is so sad that some clubs need to have control freaks to take the joy of the hobby. Maybe we have never seen the issues you have and I am glad. This will never happen hear. We have e-flyers, Warbirds flyers, Slow Flyers, Racer Flyers, Large airplane flyers, Profile Brother Flyers and the funny thing is we all get along with no fun police needed. We are not a small club for this area. 60+ members.

I had a great day flying at our club and a indoor with a club north of us.
Crash99

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

We paid $200,000 for 1000 PPP members.
We had nothing to say about it....that money is gone.
Go have fun at your field, I'll have fun at mine.
Being able to have fun with this sport has nothing to do with realizing that you've just been taken for a ride.

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

A club that does not allow PPP on the grounds of the landowner's insurance levels, real or imagined, does not neccessarily make them Anti-PPP. From what I have read here,that is the single most quoted reason(excuse) for not allowing PPP level members to fly.

Moral fiber? That certainly is dramatic. Some choose to pick their battles in life. Some choose just to battle for sport. It's kind of like the old recreational arguing dealy.

We, the members of the AMA, ARE the AMA. The folks in Muncie are just there to keep up with the paperwork and safety regs. Making sure flyers are adhering to the rules of the AMA, or probably more correctly, the club, is caring for the safety and survival of the hobby. A member that knowingly breaks the rules is a suspect member anyway. Why would you want folks in your club that put their own thrills above the safety and good of the club and hobby? We don't have anyone like that in our club and frankly don't want any.