In another thread, I made the statement that I hoped that the new EVP fell on his face, and that the plug would be pulled on the PPP.

I was asked why I didn't follow the good example set by the losing candidate.

My answer is simple. I was not in favor of Mark Smith in the election, and I have not changed my opinion of him. I think that he (with the assistance of a couple of industry heavyweights) ramrodded the PPP down our throats, and I am not convinced that the conflict of interest issue was resolved. In other words, I personally feel that we were sold down the river with respect to the PPP.

I also think that there was too much internal pressure exerted to ensure that Smith won the election. There were still only about 10% of the members who voted, and I do know that the members of the Executive Committee were very active in pushing for their candidate of choice.

Mitchell, you asked why. Them's some of my reasons.

Bill, AMA 4720

Thanks for your comments, Bill.

As I said in my earlier comment to you, I know that you haven't supported PPP from the gitgo, and that is a significant part of the reason you didn't want to see Mark Smith elected. My comment wasn't really related to why you didn't support Mr. Smith, but rather to your reaction to the congratulatory comments directed to him.

It's one thing to disagree with a candidate on one or more issues, and something totally different to hope that he "falls flat on his face" once elected and in office.

If that should happen, then AMA will be the worse for it, regardless of whether it's Mark Smith in the chair or anyone else. I think we share (or at least I hope we share) a desire to see AMA grow and be a strong advocate for it's members. I don't think it's in the best interests of AMA for anyone on the EC to fall flat on their face in terms if effectiveness in office, and that was the reason for my "sour grapes" response to your words.

If I were to start glad-handing Smith at this point, I would be the biggest two-faced member here. I did not support him, mainly because I did not like what he did in regard to the PPP issue. I asked several questions of him, and got a canned reply. When I asked for clarification from him, I got a word for word repeat of his first answer, which was not an answer at all, but was merely talking points that were appearently cleared by Muncie.

I don't like what the man represents to me, and I cannot bring myself to offer congratulatory messages to him. I will oppose him at every opportunity. I will be fair, but I will also be consistent. There are entirely too many people with other motives who chose to support him. I was not, and am not one of these. Do I wish him harm? Of course not. Do I wish him success? Of course not. After all, it was he who chose to shove the PPP down our throats in spite of the wishes of the membership. We have now spent in excess of a quarter of a million dollars to pander to about one thousand PPP members who do not pay enough to make their own way, and you expect me to offer him my best wishes? Bah, Humbug!
Bill, AMA 4720

Bill,
I can't agree with you more.
This is the guy who decided to "design" a program to go after the people who purchased the $50 Wal Mart specials, and have the rest of the membership pay for it.
The PPP is a disaster on so many levels, it would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.
Like Hoss or not, at least he speaks his mind and you know where he stands on issues, unlike Mr. Smith.
BRG,
Jon

Bob
Sure it could be good for an organization for an official to fall,
the short version is when that official is pushing an agenda that would be harmful to the org it is good for him to fail. The difficulty is determining what is indeed bad for the org when there are oposing VIEWS/OPINIONS if something is bad for the org.

As for blind compliments of anyone that wins elections,
Hitler won an election, was it right for his opponants to jump on his bandwagon?
MarkS is not hitler, nor do I assume he is like hitler. Just a couple guys that won elections, yet might be bad for their org and should / should have falen on their face.



Stick-
I'd like to voice it like this:

I didnt like things MarkS did before the election.
I didnt like things MarkS did during the election.
I dont like things MarkS is forcasted to do post election.
Do I like MarkS? Dunno, never met the guy,
but we might have a lot in common outside the scope of AMA control.... we might hit it off chatting the important stuff like Bellcranks vs Torquerods. However, the very slight glimps of Mark as a person that was displayed with him repeatedly dodging the Conflict qusetions doesnt endear me to him as a First Impression.

The AMA EC has an opportunity with PPP to demonstrate leadership. Good managers are not people who never make mistakes, they are people who quickly perceive and act to correct their mistakes. The only managers who make no mistakes are those that never do anything. Everyone who has honestly looked at the PPP knows it is and always will be a disaster. Good leaders would acknowledge that, cut the losses and move on. No shame in a mistake made with good intentions. The shame is in denying it for ever. Kennedy took responsibility for the Bay of Pigs in a few days, Clinton still has never had sexual relations with that woman!

OK, then don't. But why go out of your way to tell the world that you want him to fall flat on his face? Will the AMA be the better for that? There's more going on in Muncie than just PPP. Do you really want an ineffective senior level leader? The EC overwhelmingly supported PPP. Do you want them ALL to fall flat on their faces?

My, wouldn't THAT be good for AMA.

That said, I still have to disagree with your comment above. For Pete's sake, Bill, the losing candidate made it a point to offer a gracious congratulations to the winner. Do you see Horrace as two-faced for having done so? I certainly don't and I don't suspect you do either.

I don't particularly have an issue with whether you can bring yourself to congratulate him or not. That's not the point. This thread is about why you (or anyone, for that matter) would choose to go out of their way to hope that he fails at his job. You seem to be letting your bitterness about an issue cloud your judgement about what is in the best interests of AMA.

You're missing the point that this thread really isn't about whether PPP is a good thing or a bad thing. It's not about that at all.

Please feel free to have the last word here. But remember that the thread is about your wishing him to fall flat on his face in his new position, and NOT about whether you support or don't support PPP. They are NOT the same thing. And by the way, it is the EC as a whole that you should blame for "shoving PPP down our throats", given that it was passed by an 11-2 (I believe) vote. So, again......do you want ALL 11 to be unsuccessful for the balance of their terms? I hope not. Not if you care about AMA, anyway.

Whatever is said will be far from the last word on the matter, of that you can rest assured.

Why don't you read my entire post, rather than jumping on one issue and running with it?

Smith never did answer what was asked of him, and in fact, when the heat was turned up, ran away from the thread, and never did return. Whatever you think of Horrace, he was man enough to stay with it from beginning to end, and did not cut and run.

The issue of the PPP is important, and is a very large bone for the membership to swallow. This fault filled plan has already cost the membership a quarter of a million dollars. All this for the benefit of about one thousand members who can't vote, or have a voice in the organization that is supporting their hobby.

There is still the issue of conflict of interest, and the issue that those outside the AMA were allowed on the committee, and the wishes of the majority of the membership was ignored.

Disagree with what you wish. It's still a semi-free country. I still think that there is more to your being here than you admit. There is no way that someone with as little experience as you have in the hobby would have been as well versed with the operation of the Academy as you are. I trust you about as far as I trust Smith. I can spit further than that.

Bill, AMA 4720

Bill, While is see your point the deal is done. The membership has spoken good, bad or indifferent. I for one have no use for MA due to the monies spent keeping it afloat. We all have our issues but in a nutshell the AMA is the only game in town, sad but true. Just go fly ,build or whatever and enjoy yourself. Mike

Bob, I don't know how high up the ladder you ever got in sports, but were you ever "lifted" for a pinch hitter? If so, did you hope that guy hit a homer in your behalf, or did you silently wish for him to strike out looking like a drunk old lady?

Sure hope the PPP debacle drains AMA fast enough to get in on the Fed. bail-out money. If Muncie plays it right, they could get MILLIONS!

Mr. Smith goes to Washington. Hope he doesn't take the private jet we bought.

Well, you can get a bit irritated at the coach, but still prefer that the team win the game, Chuck.

C'mon, Bob.

I guess I'm just a shallow minded heathen, then.

Hey, you asked.

It was a serious answer, though.

Bill-

I am truly sympathetic with your thoughts...............but.... what's done is done. During an early phase of my career I spent countless hours on the mid-watch and wee hours of the morning chasing rainbows espied by marketeers that assured those of us assembled as a 'proposal team' (aka, low- and mid-level managers in a systems engineering/physical and computational sciences contracting firm) had a 90+% chance of winning the deal he has been nurturing. IOW, I have developed an ingrained bias against salesmen. I automatically divide their assessment of a proposed program's success potential by a factor of at least ten. That divisor was much larger when the salesman had nil experience with the specific market audience................that is to acknowledge model airplanes have little in common with with cell phones.
Nonetheless, the salesman, as AMA EVP, doesn't necessarily operate in a vacuum. The position is new, and the degree of autonomy granted to him will be determined by the makeup of the EC as a whole. There are a few, perhaps even a majority now, that seem to have the capability to run AMA effectively, and not just succumb to the allure of the wunderkind, if they can keep their eyes and minds open. Hang in there for a while, and see what direction things take.

Abel

I have seen coaches replaced, and the team gets better

Expect Mark S to push for increased PPP spending to make "his baby" a success.......it's human nature.

I am not to good with words but, I am going to add my 2pennys woth, been following the PPP feassco, and these threads for the last 18 months or so. I/we have small club and about 4 month ago at our meeting I ask the guestion has any one been reading any of the info in these threads, and how there dues were going to be spent. so I tryed to give a short summery, then handed out a list of the threads. At the last meeting (nov) I ask how meany had looked in to things and this new EVP thing and if they voted. well we made the avrage 10%. But the most intersting thing was more than half felt it was a done deal befor the vote, as the EC had there minds made up. I might add our 10% all voted for Horrace.

So I am with Stick , there is alot of poop in the wood pile and I would not trust the lot.

Bob T
AMA 13377

Bob,
"The EC overwhelmingly supported PPP."
And the membership overwhelmingly did NOT support PPP, but we got it (in every sence of the word) in spite of what the membership
wanted.
I figure that in another 6 months or so they'll declare it a sucess and let it fade away.
Jon

What is the basis for this remark? I do not recall there being any polling of the membership or any other means by which it could be discerned how many current members supported, or did not support, the PPP. So I am curious, do you have actual numbers to back this up or is it merely your impression or opinion?

Jon,

On what do you base your comment that the membership overwhelmingly did not want PPP?

You shouldn't get in the sunlight without wearing some really dark shades. this has been discussed here at great length. do a little search.

There was a poll sent out to leader members [and life members if I am not mistaken], but nothing to the rank and file members that I know of.

Heh... the jury may be out on THAT, too!

Another old fogie,
Dave Olson

An AMA PPP poll would be nice right about now. Very doubtful the AMA wants to know what AMA members really think, why let a little poll get in the way of "success."

And how about a nice feature article in MA with objective and honest detailed reporting on the Marketing Committee and birth of the PPP.