What are the numbers/terms of that limit?
Our new EVP should have put those in from the get go.
Why did the Prez have to get involved, why wasnt there set goals/cutoffs in the original proposal by the new EVP? Was this planned to be an unaccountable activity, spread the costs all over the books so nobody can tell how much of an anchor it is?







Bob
You really stepped in it by bringing in all the other disciplines.
You are absolutely correct, ALL disciplines of aeromodeling are just one big indivisible family, all parts equally supporting he whole. From RubberFF to Turbines we all pay the same and we all are the same. From Giants to Foamies.

...oh, whats this you say?
The foamies are somehow not part of Everyone Equal anymore?
For decades the RubberFF paid the same as powered planes because it is one size fits all (4oz-100lb), but now we are supposed to believe one size fits all but Medium (2lb) is different? How could anyone keep a straight face and say the 4oz RubberFF needs to pay $58 while a 2lb electric gets a discount.
Why? Cause one size fits all and we all pay the same, we are all equal.
Its just that our new EVP thinks PPP are MORE EQUAL than the rest of us.

If RubberFF have to ~subsidize~ the whole as Turbines benefit from lowered averages of the whole,
who the heck is he to say that the 2lb electrics are not part of Everyone Pays The Same.
We parkies need to be part of the whole just like the RubberFF have to, and pay our fair share.



Yeah, I said "we" & "our"
cause unlike you guys that discuss PPP from the outside,
I AM PPP.
You guys may genericly say 'Those PPP deserve a discount',
but I can say 'No WE ppp dont'.
Dont pigeonhole us small electric flyers with the disparities & injustices of your divisive serf tier.




ps. Thanx for the subsidized Free TShirt PPP like me get for renewing.
Maybe you guys will subsidize me up an iPod or plasmaTV next year, whynot.. we have 150k guys subsidizing gifts/payola for 1k guys so the skys the limit



<edit 12/6: 'serf tier' uncapitolized to denote it is a description, not a silly name>

Warning! Good-natured comment ahead.

Free t-shirt? I may just have to save myself $30 and get a free t-shirt to boot.

Thanks for the info.

Frank


You can go back to insulting each other and worrying about things you cannot control now.

Well, you do love your conspiracy theories, don't you Horrace?

Gee, Horrace.....thanks for the kind words. Glad to see you back and posting such substantive comments again.

CAUTION!! GROUCHY OLD CODGER POST AHEAD!!
I am still against any tier of membership that cannot vote. I was just responding to the silly arguments made by the mole. He's really reaching with the subsidizing argument. If you are an Open Member, can you not fly whatever you wish? The PPP Member cannot.

You trying for your check too?

Bill, AMA 4720

Bill, you are the one that brought up the whole context of "your" hobby and "my" hobby. It's not a matter of what you CAN do it's a matter of what you DO do. Certainly you can choose to participate in every area of the hobby that AMA supports. However, if you DON'T, and I suspect that you don't, then there is little doubt that some fraction of your dues subsidizes/fronts some of those activities in which you choose not participate. And who knows......it might even be more than the buck fifty of your dues that went to offset PPP start-up costs this year. It's not a matter of how much an individual pays in dues, it's a matter of how those dues are apportioned when they are spent.

Now if you really think this through instead of doing your usual -this has to be wrong because Bob said it- thing, you'll realize that it's logically sound and real.

Your argument is flawed, simply because you are trying to divide the choices within the Open Membership. There is no division there. You can do what you wish. The other tier of membership cannot. It's that simple. No part of my money goes to an activity in which I cannot participate, other than within the PPP. It really is that simple. If you are an open member, you can fly indoor or giant, rubber to Turbine within the same membership envelope. Where you choose to light is your choice within the membership. You are not subsidizing anything within the Open Membership. You are free to participate as you see fit. It is all the same membership. There is no membership called R/C Open, or Control Line Open. There is just the Open member title. It's your choice. I'm sorry that you are not equipped to grasp the material that you read.

Bill, AMA 4720

Stick, Your against the memberships dues subsidizing the PPP. How do you feel about the memberships dues subsidizing Model Aviation? The magazine has cost us a heck of a lot more than PPP over the years. At least the PPP has brought in a few new members. Mike

The only thing about MA is that a periodic report is required to maintain the position with the IRS. True, we could receive a typed report on membership, and finances, but the AMA chose to go with a monthly periodical several years ago. I don't read it, and in fact, I normally toss it when it arrives (based on what is on the cover). Personally, I would love for them to stop sending it to me, and just send me an annual report. If they stopped, I would not ask for a discounted membership. The 58 bucks is fine, but I would just as soon not get the magazine. I like to read more than a couple of pages on what is interesting to me. I don't get it there. Just my opinion, but you asked for it.

Bill, AMA 4720

No that's not what I asked. What is your position on our dues subsidizing the magazine? You have made it a point to let us know that your against the PPP being subsidized with our dues, whats the difference. Mike

Are the dues subsidizing the magazine? The magazine is a mandated part of the membership package (at least as it stand presently). I see what road you are trying to take me down, and we both can pick and choose any number of different scenarios to try this with. Do I like the fact that I'm forced to accept the magazine? The answer is no. Do I see it as a parallel situation to the PPP question? Again, the answer is no. With the PPP issue, there is a choice involved. With the MA issue, there is not.

Bill, AMA 4720

I guess I see them both in the same light. Mike

Actually it was YOU who made that division when you made the "your hobby" vs "my hobby" comment, Bill. You indicated that you didn't want your dues to "front" PPP activities........an activity that you CAN participate in if you choose to, but choose not to.

All I've been doing is pointing out that your dues also "front" any other part of the overall AMA scope of activities in which YOU CHOOSE not to participate. It's a valid comparison. It's not a matter of what you can or cannot participate in, it's what you choose to participate in, and you are the one who says you don't want to subsidize the activity in which you choose to NOT participate.

So....why are you not up in arms about "fronting" other AMA activities in which you CHOOSE not to participate?

Let me tell you what I think is going on here....beyond your valid concern about a non-voting membership tier. I believe that you, and more than a few others, don't want these "Joe Parkee Flyers" (to use a phrase coined by another regular here) to be a part of AMA, and don't really recognize them as "real" aeromodlers. THAT is the key reason behind your "your hobby/my hobby" comment and is one of the reasons you get your shorts in such a wadd whenever you talk about PPP. Heck, Bill...you've made your disdain of ARF/RTF's and those who fly them pretty obvious in your comments, and this is just an extension of that.

The fact of the matter is that the hobby IS changing and that the focus/growth is going to be quite differrent over the next 25 years that it has been over the past 25 years. The growth of RC flying in particular is rather obviously changing from kit or scratch built fuel planes to ARF's/RTF's and to smaller, lighter electric planes not necessarily being flown at purpose built fields, and I think that PPP is an attempt by AMA leadership to recognize that and reach out to those that are participating in that change and growth. (Whether it's the RIGHT way to reach out is obviously up for debate and my comment should not be taken to be an endorsement of the method itself). However, they are absolutely right to recognize that is where the growth is happening, and in changing AMA to be a part of that growth. If that doesn't happen AMA will indeed become a dinosaur.....and we know what happened to them. What you see as "your hobby" isn't part of that growth and I suspect that 25 years down the road (or perhaps much less) there will be a growing number of "Joe Parkee Flyers" who may be wondering why part of their dues is being used by AMA to support "your" hobby.

THAT is the reason that this whole "your hobby/my hobby" thing is so counter productive. It's also the reason that my opinion has been changing over the past few months as to whether the PPP as it has been set up is right or wrong. In the long run a two tier setup is just going to foster that "my hobby/your hobby" mindset and will NOT be in the best interests of AMA. (KE, do you hear me? I know you've got to be smiling at THAT comment)

I'm sure that loud groan I hear in the background is several of you saying "what took you so long".

So, bottom line here....I agree with your comments about voting/non-voting two tier membership. Long run it's not a good thing. OTOH, I think your comments about "fronting" parts of the hobby are a smokescreen to cover that you really don't think that "Joe Parkee" belongs in AMA to begin with. Long run that's not a good thing either.

But hey...I guess I have your "my hobby/your hobby" comments to thank for helping me to gel my thoughts on the two tier system. There....doesn't that make you feel better?

Bob
Is hiring the new editor a startup cost?
Cause I didnt know we only pay a salary for muncie employees their first year then they work for free for the next 30-50 years. Did anyone tell that employee their salary is a one time startup cost?

The new EVP should be able to break down how much of the $quartermil we wont have to spend in a recurring nature... where did that money go? Advertizing/Marketing that we wont do in 09? Well, we heard the magazine was around $200k of the money sank so far, other than the OneTimeSalary employee what is a non recurring magazine startup cost? Or was the plan to hide the PPP salaries from being counted as PPP costs next year, making it a startup cost.

Was that the plan of the new EVP?
I dunno, but you like to send emails.... you could ask what are these huge one time expenses.
The new EVP is supposed to be easy to work with, so we should have no problems having him work with us like this.
You could ask the Marketing Committee what their outline of the goals and cutoffs were when MarkS pitched it to the EC, or was it designed as an open ended moneypit from the get go.




RCmike
Really? Where did you see those numbers?

Of the 1100 PPP, how many actually became AMA members that pay the subsidy rather that recieve it.
Is the vision of our new EVP to put as many folks as he can on <silly name removed by poster> some welfare flyer plan.


Here is a really scarey picture:
What if the new EVP's vision of the New World Order did have a fair chunk of success?
How much would the AMA have to spend to subsidize 20,000 PPP members?

Folks like Bob are happy to pay a buck fifty to have a 1k PPP,
will Bob be happy to pay $30 to have a 20k PPP?
Will Bob see there is somethig wrong when Muncie has to take $60 out of his $58 to subsidize a 40k PPP?
Do the Opens really want to buy the PPPs 40000 TShirts in the Renewal Payola scheme?

We hear the PPP was disapointing in reaching its goals (yet decreed a "Success" )
What was that goal? 10000? 20000?
Do we really want to get that many folks on <silly name removed by poster> some welfare flyer plan on the backs of the Opens?
Does the New EVP?
If he does, I certainly do hope he 'falls flat on his face'. ...-to borrow a phrase



<edit>
Bob
Glad to hear you see a house divided cannot stand.
Yes, the AMA should adapt to meet the need of current modelers if it is to survive,
it should not chop itself into AMA/PPP/TubineAMA/FFAMA seperate but unequal parts.
There can be no Us-Them if there is only one big We,
and that We must adapt to survive.

Kid you mean to tell me that you think that the PPP has not brought in a few new members? Just how many members has Model Aviation brought in? I don't have #'s to back up my thoughts on this but they are just that my thoughts. Mike

You also need to ask how many of the PPP members are those who previously held an Open Membership, and dropped down to the 2nd tier of memberships. These members are not new, but are old members who pay a lower dues tier than before. Therefore they are not new members, and their membership should not be used to skew the numbers.

Bill, AMA 4720

I have just had to remove one post from this thread, so I think that I need to post a reminder to something I put out earlier this year. When referring to the PPP, or any other AMA program for that matter, DO NOT make up funny, silly, or derogatory names in your post. Please refer to these programs by their proper names or don't reference them at all. Making up silly names is something that children do when they want to try to win a school yard spat. It's not something that grown men do when discussing an issue. By doing it hear it does nothing but minimize the legitimacy of your messages. As I said earlier this year there will be zero tolerance for this. Any posts containing these types of names will be immediately removed. I'm not going to edit them to take the names out.

Thanks for your cooperation in this.

Ken

Where did Mitchell's long (as usual) post go? I was in the process of answering, and it disappeared.

Bill, AMA 4720

What do I speculate as to how many Opens came from PPP?
Why, I dare not take such unfounded casino style throwdart wild guesses here.

I just wanted to see if any hard data escaped the new EVP/Muncie.
Guess not, its still vague terms like Successful and A Few members.


But here is a hypothetical exercise for ya:
Lets assume the $quartermil was indeed a single one time expense
Lets assume the anual recurring costs to Opens of PPP is $0.
Lets assume there is a 5year term for this evaluation.
Question: How many converts from PPP to Open in this 5year term would it take to justify the $250000 spent to get them?

For comparison,
what did AMA spend on marketing itself 2 or 3 years ago and how many joiners did that expenditure bring in.
We cant look at delta #members, cause there were quitters/diers... we need NewMember# from muncie.

Bob, it doesn't matter to me what anyone wants to fly. You should see what I fly most of the time. I don't think many others really care either. The important thing is to have club members who will add something to the betterment of the club. I don't subscribe to your notion that Joe Parkkie isn't welcome by most PPP critics. If JP wants to be a good fellow and share in the field duties and otherwise be an asset to the club, he is more than welcome by me.

In general...I don't understand RCU's reasoning behind banning the posting of creative twists on the PPP acronym as long as they aren't vulgar or otherwise not politically correct. It might be a little bit childish, but I admit to getting a kick out of childish stuff now and then.
Anyone seen my Cox .049 wrench?

It went away because in trying to make a point I used a derogatory term someone else coined in reference to Park Flyers that we were asked some time ago not to use. I'm going to repost without the offending term, but I don't keep copies so it won't be verbatim.

I have a better idea. If you are only posting to argue, why not not? I don't think that you are trying to make a point, but just that you like to argue. You remind me of Dion in that respect.

Bill, AMA 4720

Bill, you made that division with your comment about "your hobby/my hobby". You indicated that you didn't want your dues to "front" PPP activities.....activities you can participate in but CHOOSE not to. Just as a buck fifty of your dues went to "front" PPP activities this year, some of your dues also went to other AMA activities that you CHOOSE not to participate in. It's not about what the PPP members can and can't do it's about the fact that you've indicated that "your hobby" is different than "their hobby" and you don't want your dues to support or front it. Simple as that.

Now, unless you choose (emphasis on choose) to participate in every aspect of the hobby that AMA supports, then your dues are in fact being used to "front" AMA activities that aren't "your hobby" (since you choose not to participate). You don't seem to take exception to those, though. Here's what I think is going on there. I don't think that you, and more than a few others, believe that park flyers should be a part of AMA. (Note to others, I don't necessarily equate oppostion to the PPP program as oppositon to park flyers, but there are some whom the shoe fits) They aren't part of "your hobby", aren't real aeromodlers, as opposed to other areas that also aren't part of "your hobby" but are part of the 'real' AMA.

The fact of the matter is that the hobby is changing and will continue to change. The emphasis and involvement is changing from fuel powered kit/scratch built airplanes to ARF's/RTF's to small electric aircraft flown in areas that were not purpose built for flying model aircraft. The typical flyer 25 years ago was flying something he put together himself. That's changing and more often than not a new person is going to be flying an ARF bought over the internet. 25 years from now it will be different still and those flying kit built fuel powered planes may find themselves in the position of being in the minority and having those flying small electrics in their local park wondering why THEIR dues are going to front "your hobby".

AMA is right to recognize that the hobby is changing and to try to position themselves to support those in the area where things are changing the most. If they don't then AMA will indeed become a dinosaur, and you know what happened to them. This particular approach may not be the right way to do it, but they are right to move AMA in that direction.

Interestingly enough all this "my hobby"/'your hobby" talk has helped my gel my thoughts concerning a two tier membership, and I believe it's the wrong way to go. It's just going to further foster that "my/your" division that you have illustrated so well, and in the long run it will not be a good thing. One thing that has become obvious to me over the past several months is that AMA encompasses many areas and that for AMA to remain a strong advocate (or become a better, stronger advocate) that we need to think more along the terms of "our" hobby rather than "yours" or "mine". (I'm sure that noise I hear in the background is several of you whispering under your breath "what took him so long". )

So, I take exception to your characterization and arguement about "fronting" PPP with your dues, and think it's at least in part a smokescreen. OTOH I agree with you that a dual or multi-tier membership is not in the best long term interests of AMA.

There, doesn't that make you feel better?

I don't know why I'm still beating my head against this wall, but I'm willing to try it again. EVERY ASPECT OF AMA MEMBERSHIP IS COVERED BY AN OPEN MEMBERSHIP. YOU CAN FLY ANYTHING THAT YOU WANT WITH AN OPEN MEMBERSHIP. IF YOU ARE FLYING YOUR INDOOR RUBBER POWER MODEL THIS MORNING, YOU CAN GO AND FLY YOUR FREE FLIGHT MODEL RIGHT AFTER THAT, AND THEN YOUR CONTROL LINE STUNT PLANE, THEN CHANGE OVER TO FLY CONTROL LINE COMBAT, AND SPEND THE AFTERNOON FLYING YOUR RADIO CONTROLLED GIANT SCALE MODEL.

IF YOU HAVE A PPP MEMBERSHIP, YOU CAN ONLY FLY MODELS WEIGHING 2 POUNDS OR LESS AND THAT HAVE A TOP SPEED OF LESS THAN OR EQUAL TO 60 MILES PER HOUR.

WITH THE OPEN MEMBERSHIP, YOU ARE AN EQUAL MEMBER TO EVERY OTHER MEMBER. YOU CAN NOMINATE, YOU CAN VOTE, YOU CAN FLY ANY MODEL AIRPLANE OR ENTER ANY CONTEST FOR WHICH YOU HAVE A QUALIFIED MODEL TO FLY. NO ONE IS SUBSIDIZING YOU IN ANY MANNER. JUST BECAUSE YOU PERSONALLY DON'T FLY FREE FLIGHT, YOUR MONEY IS NOT SUBSIDIZING THE FREE FLIGHT MODELLERS. YOU HAVE EQUAL MEMBERSHIP. YOU ARE NO MORE A MODELLER THAN THE GUY WHO FLYS INDOOR RUBBER.

BUT, WHEN YOU ADD A SECOND TIER OF MODELER INTO THE MIX, AND THAT MODELER CANNOT VOTE, NOMINATE, FLY IN OPEN COMPETITION, OR IN A LOT OF CASES USE YOU FIELD AS EITHER A GUEST, OR MEMBER, AND WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT THE AMA IS SPENDING ROUGHLY $220,000.00 MORE THAN THEY COLLECTED FROM THAT GROUP FOR THE YEAR, THEN YOU ARE SUBSIDIZING THEM.

IF YOU ARE SO DENSE THAT YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THAT BASIC CONCEPT OF SUBSIDIZATION, THEN YOU ARE A HOPELESS CASE. SORRY BOUT YOUR LUCK.

Emphasis intended.

Bill, AMA 4720

Bob, outside of mailing out forms to contest directors and making provisions at the Nats, I'm not aware of any specially allocated money that AMA passes out to the various categories of modeling? When control line was on a death watch 20 years ago, I never heard about any AMA funds allocated to give it a boost. Same goes for 1/2A now.
Either this stuff can stand on its' own merits or it's time to wave by-by.

If a real [not make believe] demand for a introductory program ever materializes, the AMA will be able to tool up for it lickety split. They must realize that they can not create a demand, it has to already exist.

You err.
If a $58 CL-Open chooses not to do what the $58 FF-Open or $58 Turbine-Open is doing
the important underlieing fact is that they are all $58 Opens of equivalent contribution to the whole.
Nobody is riding on the backs of others because they are all the same in concept: $58 Open.
There is no CL-Open or Turbine-Open, there are no divisions to be Us-Them.

As soon as the new EVP introduced a division of that whole that pays less,
you now have subsidy and inequality and house-not-staindingism.
Now we do have one group (150k Everyone) supporting/"fronting" another group (1k Parkies).





Will PPP pay for itself?
PPP hired an editor, how much of the $29 dues from the 1100 PPP's goes directly to that guys salary?
(hint: if 100% of their dues went toward his salary, he'd only make ~$33k)
Just how much is Muncie paying this new PPP hiree?
Is he the only one? How many other PPP hires / labor costs are there hidden in Indiana?
Are Ashley et al getting PPP paid?

Did the new EVP think this thru before going wide open throttle of the MuncieWallet?
Will he fall flat on his face pushing PPP / his agenda or will the AMA do so trying to float his moneypit.