Some background:

I am the secretary of an AMA chartered club, and we fly at a county facility dedicated to aeromodeling. The field has been operating as an AMA only site since the 80's.

We have recently been challenged by some new county management that have had some complaints from "concerned citizens” That say the requirement by the county for AMA Membership is unfair.
The county management suggestion is to make the field a NON AMA field on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

We’ve had one meeting with county and have another one scheduled.
At the last club meeting the consensus was to encourage the county to maintain the requirement for AMA for everyone’s liability protection.

I have sent an email to our district AMA VP for input on this issue .

My Question:

Has anybody else in this online community faced a similar situation? How did you handle the argument regarding the AMA requirement .Any input is appreciated.

Your best argument is the insurance issue.
If they want to take on the full liability that is their perogative.
See if you can get their risk manager at the meeting.
Your best bet is to agree with them rather than get into a battle you will probably lose.

Does the county have a race track?
Do they let just anyone use it on certain days of the week?
What are the requirements to use it?

These are a couple of ideas that come to my mind.
I hope they help.

Good Luck,
KW_Counter

Is the county willing to assume full liability for model flying on Monday, Wednesday and Friday?

Just noted previous poster cover this.

Yep...that is THE key question.......

I dont understand.
If the clubs contract/agreement is that M-W-F the land is not an AMA club,
then there is no club or Muncie liability if someone gets killed on Monday, right?
AdHoc kids are not required to join Little League to use county provided public ballfields in much the same way adhoc RC flyers dont need insurance to use county provided public RC Fields.... our tax dollars hard at work, but FOR flyers this time


Sounds like the municipality is promoting aeromodeling for the people,
by using city insurance to protect city assets from aeromodeling liabilities on MWF,
and providing land for aeromodeling use to the public (AMA club is part of the public).
Why is a charter of AMA opposed to that.

Would this Liability you speak of be a problem to folks concerned for aeromodeling's future
if the county opened some other land to public flying? Some non-AMA park somewhere.



Sounds like you still have a sweetheart deal
Your club gets exclusive use land for both weekend days
whereas the working stiff public cant fly on the weekend.
I'm sure lots of parents love their children enough
to miss a day of work to take the kid out of school to fly a toy plane.
Dont rock the boat

The present contract says that the field is AMA only 24/7/365. The county wants to change it to NON AMA on M/WE/FRI. The club consensus is to dissuade them of this plan.
The club consensus (and that of the AMA)is The County would be liable for injuries on the NON AMA days. The club consensus is IF the county gets stung by this, they might think about closing the field. There is NO possibility of a separate NON AMA field at this time.

This is where I fly. I am concerned that even though I am a AMA member the AMA will not cover me on the non AMA days (this is my understanding of their position).

Of note, the club uses this county park as our home field but we are not the controllers, anyone with a field pass issued by county authority can fly there, our club membership is a seperate issue.

The county does not enforce it's rules there anyway, they never come out and check that people have their park pass.

The county is NOT model airplane friendly.

What a bunch of stuff.

You guys are not to be believed. [:'(]

Have you ever considered Munis have liabilities and insurance for swimming pools, Soccer fields, Skateboard parks etc..

It is just disgusting to see people here play the liability card just to be selfish with what could be a great public flying site.

How soon most of you forget what the AMA is truly about...promoting the hobby instead of excluding hobbyist.


Heck, Let the county make everyday a Non-AMA required day if possible. It doesn't negate your insurance one bit.


Do Get behind the county while they are pro Aero modeling and increase the chances of more flying sites for everyone.


Do not pee in your sand box by citing catastrophic, world ending danger as some here would have you do...that would definitely be a mistake...you could lose it all. I have seen that first hand.

Incorrect. Non AMA flyers do not adversely effect your liability coverage...you will be covered just as if all flyers were AMA.

That is not what the AMA has told us. It does seem contrary to my understanding.... Maybe they meant we loose the club insurance coverage??? I don't know.

I agree with you. What ever they do I think should be all the time though.

But I think there is more to this than meets the eye. The "concerned citizens" that don't want to belong to the AMA, don't want to conform to safety rules, what else? I believe these people that went to the county are the same people that don't want to pay for the park pass and leave notes on the park bulletin board about refusing to play by the rules and nobody can stop them, childish...

At what point does the county just say go away. They have almost done it in the recent past. This could close us down easily.

If a non-AMA member plants his plane through the windshield of your Escalade and he doesn't have personal liability insurance you might be on the paying end regardless of your AMA membership. Before I would fly there I would want to know for sure if the AMA covers me for injury from Non-AMA member flying at a non-AMA chartered site. For those that fly under these circumstances it would be advisable to get a clarification directly from the AMA rather than from the guard house lawyers here.

Is that is good as you can do?? I don't know about you but my Escalade would be insured regardless///A weak example to say the least...BFD

We have a similar situation here and the Non- AMAers are some of the most considerate. Heck, it is the AMAers that are the ones we have problems with... Maybe the non-AMAers are being rubbed the wrong way.

This is my understanding of the rules, if I am wrong please correct me. (1) Any pilot who is a member of the AMA would still have his insurance in effect. (2) The county would loss the coverage the AMA provides to the land owner. (3) Any injury caused by a non AMA member would have to be filed thru the county insurance first. Remember the AMA protects you even in your back yard if you are following their safety guide lines.
There is a club near me that fly's on county land, the only requirement by the government is that you are a AMA member you do not have to be a club member. So the club has a mix of members and non-members. Another club I know in Florida on county land has complete control of the field.
I would go to the meeting with a very positive attitude wanting to work with the county and accept what ever they want. Any decision they make really doesn't affect the club or it's members.
It all boils down to promoting the hobby and the non-members may in time become members. Dennis

Dennis-

(1) Correct
(2) Incorrect, see citation following below.
(3) I believe any person that causes injury to someone else would have to first file with his HO or or other primary liability insurance provider, whether AMA member or not. The public entity would file a claim only if they were sued by the injured party.

From the AMA Club Charter Kit:

"To preserve the availability of low cost insurance to your club and its site owner, the people who fly with your club should contribute their share of that cost. They can do so by becoming dues paying members of your AMA charter club as well. In the same vein, if the landowner for your club’s chartered club field has granted the club exclusive flying privileges, the club should ONLY allow AMA members and current members of the Model Aeronautics Association ofCanada (MAAC) to fly at the field. If your club is flying on public land and it has not been granted exclusive flying rights by the public agency in charge, your club activities should be confined to AMA members, and you are not responsible for other (non-AMA) flier’s actions. Should the public agency be named as an additional insured, it has coverage only for the actions of your club, its members, and other visiting AMA members who are considered guests."

Nothing changes for the AMA club regarding insurance provided to its members and to the site owner for liability that may result from club activities.

Abel

My point was the non AMA days that the AMA site insurance would not be in effect. I did state that any accident caused by a non-member. The question goli had was about non members. If the club is flying as a club on non AMA days they still have the full backing of the AMA for their members only. Dennis

Dennis, sorry for a bit of miscommunication there.

Also, I meant to mention (but mashed the OK button too soon) that I'm fully in agreement with you on this:
This isn't about a dilemma, but rather an opportunity.

Abel

During the meeting the county may adopt the safety rules from the AMA if presented in a positive way. This is one way to maintain order. This would also show the county that the reason for the club is to promote the hobby and safety all at the same time. This appears to me to be a win-win for all concerned. I'd take as much information as I could from the AMA make copies and pass them out. After I hit the OK button I keep thinking about more. Offer a school day where children come out for a plane day to teach aerodynamics and flight demos. These are things that clubs can do that open flying can't. Remember what honey can do. Given more time and I'll come up with more ideas. Dennis

Good points on both sides! Keep them coming. This has been very helpful so far. I will be summarizing the comments and forwarding them to our BOD and the clubs negotiator.

As a note of explanation, there are four entities involved here:

1) The County Park and rec dept.

2) The Aeromodelers advisory board, the negotiator and the liaison between the two clubs that use the field and the county.
This board is made up of club members and collects an annual fee of $20 from all flyers for a "park pass", you do not have to belong to either club to get the park pass and fly, but you must have current AMA. (So far the monies from this pass have been used for the improvements to the facilities at the field, a picnic enclosure, a paved runway, and gravel for the driveway etc.)

3)&4) the two clubs, one R/C ,one control line.

With the county proposed changes, there is a fifth entity: The NON AMA public.

I agree that not rocking the boat is good idea, and the AMA has said the AMA club members would still be covered on NON AMA days, but I think at least the NON AMA people should still pay the $20 for the improvements for the field. I also have reservations about whether the NON AMA members would liable for injuries to the other flyers AMA or not. Who would be in charge of vetting and enforcing this liability?

Should the NON AMA flyers be forced to prove they have appropriate Home owner insurance?

As it is now the AMA flyer must include a copy of their current AMA card to get the park pass. Should the NON AMA flyers provide proof of home owner insurance?

If it was me ol buddy, I'd let the county assume all of the liability an then you club guys could tell the ama to go screw themselves an save $58 a year. The only thing thats keeping the ama in biz is scare tactics an greed.


Ron

Toolman
That would work out OK , if you have your own insurance (HO/PUP/etc) to protect your assets
while letting the county's insurances protect county bank accounts.
Or have no assets to protect... always an option.

. . . .



hmmm, read this up in the thread:
What would it be like if the guy that hit you WAS ama?

AMA Liability insurance for PILOTS is Secondary,
you would have to go thru the PILOTS primary insurance first,
then if you wanted to,you could file a suit against the club or landowner for allowing it to happen,
and the ama club SITE insurance would become involved.

SO, if Jimmy hit you with a plane,
Jimmy's insurance would have to cover his liability for your damages/injuries
regardless of Jimmys membership in AMA or not... nor if he was on private or public land.
If Jimmy cant pay all his his liability with his insurance, then we see if he has AMA Secondary insurance to pay whats left of the claim against Crashy-Pilot Jimmy.

Then, as a moneygrab, you can try to sue the landowner for some silly reason,
and that is where liability of the Landowner might need to be covered by insurance for the site.

Other folks having liability insurance doesnt protect YOU.
It protects their bank account from your claims against them (their liability to you): .
What do you think happens when a baseball goes thru a window from a kid in the park?
What happens when a kid throws a fribsee at the beach and hits you in the eyeglasses?
What happens when Jimmy crashes his plane at the county RC Flying field?

I can tell you what happens when <edit> (AMA member with own insurance) hit you with a plane at an AMA club though.
Hoss' personal insurance has to pay out the $750 to $7.2mil you sue Hoss for
and after Hoss' $mil+ insurance pays all its coverage you can get some money from Muncie's bank account,
then, after AMA Self-Pays $250k the insurance AMA has will pay some more of whats left unpaid from your suit against Hoss. Which means, Hoss is still on the hook for paying you a few $mil of the $7.2mil you were awarded.

Now, if Jimmy hit you with a plane he was flying in yard that hit you in your yard,
Jimmy has some paying to do, Jimmy has liability for that and hopefully some liability insurance.
If Jimmy hit you with a plane he he was flying at the school,
Jimmy has some paying to do, Jimmy has liability for that and hopefully some liability insurance.
If Jimmy hit you with a plane Monday on county property that is open to public flying M-W-F
Jimmy has some paying to do, Jimmy has liability for that and hopefully some liability insurance.

Would you sue the guy that owns the house Jimmy is leasing?
Would you sue the School for allowing that to happen?
Would you sue the county?
Would you sue the BoyScouts that sometimes are allowed by the county to Jamboree on that land?
Would you sue the BoyScouts AMA that sometimes are allowed by the county to Jamboree fly on that land?

ins policys being what they are and such, if the county has a blanket liability policy in force, then it will split payouts with the ama site owners insurance, anyway.

Let me ask you a question about you insurance concerns: Would you raise issues about liability insurance with the County Rec Dept if it involved any park users other than model flyers? If the answer is no, don't make an issue of it. The County either requires park users involved in some activities to have personal liability insurance and provide co-insurance to protect them, or they don't. Same goes for issues related to enforcement of park passes - don't tell them how to do their job. It isn't likely that they would appreciate having you advise them on park user access and insurance matters, and there is a good possibility that your bringing it up would invoke questions along the lines of "Just how dangerous is flying model airplanes to participants and other park users?"
Better to discuss with them provisions that will help ensure that both existing AMA club modelers and the newcomers can co-exist safely and without interfering with each others enjoyment of the hobby/sport and the facilities provided by the County.
DadsToysBG suggested that AMA Safety Code offers good guidelines applicable to all modelers and would be a good point of discussion, and with him 100% on that. Add to that recommendations for coordination of non-club flyers with club members, including perhaps local conventions that have been adopted by the clubs to keep flyers from stepping on each other, and you'll have enough to discuss with the County folks, all of a positive nature.
Hope your meeting with the County people is cordial and productive.

Abel

You have a good DVP. I am sure with a good presentation and AMA's help all will be worked out. Cool heads and well thouugh out words go a long way when dealing with local governments. Best of luck.