Bob Mitchell

I'm not complaining about anything, Mike. All I did was suggest that IMO it would not be a bad idea for AMA to promote the most elemental aspect of the modeling hobby, a practice that is apparently steadily losing participants, by subsidizing one of the tools that they use. That's all.

AMA subsidizes younger members to attract them to the hobby. My (and your) dues go to subsidize that. I see that as a good thing and don't see that this (if it were to happen) is much different.

Kemosobie

Scratch builders do not buy plans. They create their own.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

I didn't mention you, because you're not the one asking for a hand-out or complaining.

It seems quite different to me. What some people are campaigning for is to see the AMA provide them with reduced-cost (or free) hobby supplies. These would, ostensibly, be for people who are already involved in the hobby, have an income (or could have an income), and are free to make their own choices in life as to how they allocate their personal resources. It's analogous to a person requesting that the AMA ("because it's non-profit!") provide everyone with a 2.4ghz radio at cost. Now, you'll see some of the folks jump up and down and talk about how it's not like that. Blah, blah, blah... give me something for nothing. So on and so forth.

Subsidizing youth memberships provides nothing but the services that all AMA members receive. It's not a hobby product. It's a decision that the AMA has made, which they feel attracts kids to an aging base of hobbyists. It doesn't bring the AMA into unfair competition with any other aspect of the hobby business, as subsidizing plans would. In that way, it doesn't give anyone reason to stop investing in their business. If it brings kids in that wouldn't otherwise be involved, it brings more activity and money into the hobby community without damaging any aspect of the hobby business. That would seem to be a very clear difference here.

kid chuckles

Who cares anyway nobody builds by plans anymore or not any one smart enough to build an ARF, we all know ARF"S are taking over and you plan and scratch guys are a dying breed.




















Bet this starts some stuff lol. J/K guys rofl I would build from plans better yet scratch if smart enough to do so. You guys are great and build awsume planes. Wish i had the time and talent.

Stickbuilder

Those who can build. Those who can't fly arfs. Bite me. [>:]

Bill, AMA 4720

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Scratch builders do not buy milled balsa, they pick out their own timber and cut their own.
I'm just now finishing up the conrod, piston, head button and head clamp on a scratch build with a ST .15 for power
. I already made the new crank last year. I did cheat a little and reused the old case, but built a set of full compliment bearings for it. True scratch builders don't use the standard "industrial swill" to power our planes.
Plans are just ideas, or rather suggestions as to how the scratch built plane project can proceed. There is valuable structural information to be gleaned that no true scratch builder would "look down his nose" at.
You could say that a TRUE SCRATCH BUILDER never has or will he ever lay eyes on anyone else's plans for advice, engineering, or inspiration...because that would only taint the purity of his work...so let's just get real.

KidEpoxy

Hoss
That seems like the logical way to look at it.
If we want to start a subsidy of Plans, we will have to cut some other spending or raise dues.
However, this is AMA we are talking about:
2006 Dues $58
2007 Dues $58
2008 Dues $58
2009 Dues $58
Now, which years did HQ initiate a ~$130000+ subsidy of a program they wanted
and why is that extra $130k spent not cutting back services nor raising dues?

Can HQ just start subsidizing things without raising dues?
Seems so.
If they can start shelling out well over $100000 for one subsidy, just how much subsidy dollars are we talking about to cut the Plans prices in half? What kind of volume of trade are we talking about..... cause if it is just $20k or less, pshaw fa'gettabou'it

KidEpoxy

Can anyone tell me if any of the surviving modeling magazines had Pullout plans last year (08) ?

Minnreefer

I got into this discussion because people asked if plan prices make any difference. I personally feel that I would order more plans if they were cheaper, but this discussion has gotten a bit too heavy for me. AMA spends a lot of money on many different things, some of them people will agree with some won’t, AMA will never make everyone happy, but it is only a very smart part of life and we need to keep that in perspective.

Jon

Minnreefer

I am happily married with 2 great boys, I try to be a good father and a good husband, that makes me special

My wife may not agree

Jon

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

MikeL, now you are pretending that you know how much the guy who runs the plans out to people makes per hour, plus what his benefit package consists of. Give me a break.
I am just openly speculating that the plans could be duplicated and mailed for less than the figure that Stick presented. You, on the other hand are pretending to know the unknowable.

Tell us more about your financial impact study of the plans service industry if the AMA lowers the price a little. Do you do your own calculations, or do you bring in someone from the outside, like maybe Alan Greenspan?
Or maybe the Delphi Oracle?

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Hmm... Didn't you just say this?

You seem to be re-writing reality again. Thanks for the fine example of what I was talking about!

Stickbuilder

Because that's the market price for a full set of plans and templates for most any decent model (not counting profiles and foamies). (oh I did say decent models did I not?) Why should the AMA go into the bargain basement mode when selling any items? If you order a set of Ziroli, Hostetler, Watz, or other plans, you don't get them at a price reduction. The AMA has some very desirable plan sets, that are difficult to come by from any other source. They are worth the asking price, plus it keeps the riff raff from plan building.

Bill, AMA 4720

Stickbuilder

Yeah. Scale R/C Builder (from England) had several. Or maybe it's Scale Model Builder......I can't remember exactly, and don't want to go look.

Bill, AMA 4720

Blue_Sky

CP and Stick, I'm lazy. I could call a friend and ask him why his plans listed on AMA are the most expensive I saw when I went and looked a minute after seeing the original post of this thread days ago. Could it be my friend asked for a bigger cut from AMA? Could it be the plans are worth it? Actually, they are worth the AMA asking price, I have a set he gave me no charge. CP you are correct, friends take care of each other.

But I'm not calling my friend to ask him if there was an arbitrary dollar amount he requested from the AMA for his cut that may add to the price. And I'm not calling the AMA and ask about the plan price structure. I'm lazy and evidently everyone else is too, because this group could have learned the elementary AMA plan pricing structure days ago.

So with no factual evidence here's my opinion. I think the plan prices are fair. I don't think the AMA should undercut private business. Subsidizing or not subsidizing doesn't anything to do with it IMO as long as: 1. Plans are priced at fair market value. 2. Plans are not losing money for the AMA.

The AMA is a non-profit entity, but has a fiscal responsibility to not offer incentives (low cost plans) to attract what could essentially be new customers (new members) looking for low cost plans as an effort for the AMA to gain membership.

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

Give me a break and ease up on the condescension. I'm fully aware of what a subsidy is. I was looking for Hoss to clarify his definition for a follow up question.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

ML I do work at a shop that has a print enlarger/copier and do know the costs involved plus labor and benefits and postage. There won't be much difference between here and Indiana for paper, ink and electricity but our wages are higher. Well, that's assuming one of our project managers is paid more than the guy who works at the AMA's mailroom.
If you read my quote the way it was written, instead of using your approach to reading comprehension, it's easy to see that I'm approximating the AMA's costs based on what I know about large documents.

Stick, I have to admit I don't know anything about "decent" models. I fly planes that are within my means to have fun, not to keep up with the Jone's.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

I suppose that's why you left out all of the other costs associated with running a business, eh? Pardon me for not filling in the blanks for you.

Hossfly

Robotech, I think you are adequately clear in that you are searching for an off-topic arguement that someone monitoring these proceedings will not like. In my opinion, anytime a member-organization provides a service to selected members that comes out of the dues monies of all the members, then that group of selected members is "Subsidized". See the definitions below.

Thanks Robotech for the confidence. Here are definition/s that support my common usage of the term subsidy, subdize, etc., especially #1, 4 & 5.

1.) a sum of money allotted for a specific use by official or formal action

2.) a grant by a government to a private person or company to assist an enterprise deemed advantageous to the public

3.)Subsidy, financial assistance granted by a government or philanthropic foundation to a person or association for the purpose of promoting an enterprise considered beneficial to the public welfare

4.) The term subsidy has had widely varied usage in the 20th cent. Subsidies may be granted to keep prices low, to maintain incomes, or to preserve employment.
(All above from AOL Search Dictionary)

5.) Any financial assistance afforded by ONE INDIVIDUAL or government to another. (Reader's Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary)

One can defend almost any organization's action that does produce good things for a certain few as a subsidy. Now I would love to debate national subsidies at this time, however Mr. RCKen would have me hanging by my toes again. I do not need for that AGAIN. [sm=confused_smile.gif]Ya'll have a great day. I see no need for me to post here any more. Bye Bye!

squeakalong

My Feedback: (8)

Perhaps it's time to put this thread to rest; it's been kicked way out in left field.... I apologize to those forum members who have had to endure some of the offensive conduct (read crap) by a few. That was never my intention. Let's go build something and get back to having some fun.

Thanks to most all participates for their informative comments. It has been interesting.

Soft landings.

KidEpoxy

Bluesky
what about those in the fair market providing free/pullout plans?
If the free market has folks giving away plans,
wouldnt we be remiss to not do so.
Why not carry on with what the market already has going?


Hoss, let me borrow one of your citations for general use:
3.)Subsidy, financial assistance granted by a government or philanthropic foundation to a person or association for the purpose of promoting an enterprise considered beneficial to the public welfare
Building models is one of the core concepts of what the AMA is trying to keep alive. Sometimes, to keep something alive you have to bolster it. There is no doubt that model building is receding in the face of ARFs, the question is
What is AMA going to DO about the model building recession?

Something, or nothing and in a few years just change the name of the org to
Academy of Many Arfs

gzkpez

Yes, their are magazines with "pull out plans" Flying Scale Models always has one, or a half each issue. Fly RC has had some also. There are other ones from Italy, UK, and Japan; but I do not see them all the time. There are also many internet plan sources, even giant warbirds.

I am not sure many of the AMA plan service plans (not counting Model Aviation) are OK for beginners today. AMA does have its online sport flyer site with plans and construction advice. I guess all young people use the internet before magazines anyways and can tile the smaller plane plans. Plans I think real beginners would like would be ones to use the equipment they get in the Walmart, Radio Shack type of arfs using material they could get from a craft stores (Walmart does not even sell balsa wood today).

The Toolman

Spad plans are all free. Go to their site and you can find all kind of free plans that have all been donated at no cost to the site by their members.
How many here have donated free plans to this site for people to use?



Ronnie

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I have and still do. I've never drawn up anything above 1/2A size though.

Blue_Sky

That's a valid point KE. I look at it as I view a somewhat similar situation. I own (actually the bank and shareholders own) an industrial sales business. We also manufacture accessories for equipment we purchase from OEMs and brand with our brand. Our business is extremely competitive and my biggest competitor and leader in our market gives away "free" gifts dependent on size of orders. First of all, there's no such thing as a free gift. And even though the "free gifts" my competitor offers are junk (horridly cheap junk tool kits, junk cheap flashlights, etc) they are still the market leader. People don't seem to notice that their prices are higher than any other company, but for some reason, when people see the word FREE they lose common sense. Hey, if it's free, I want some lol - And even though they eventually receive notoriously sub standard customer service, pay more than they should and the free gifts are literally junk tool sets seemingly forged by a fourth grader in a third world nation, they run a successful business.

Actually, I'm thinking I should get into the free thing. As much as it totally rubs me the wrong way to offer free gifts, what do you think my company should give away? But I probably won't do it. The businesses we sell to are high profile Fortune 500 companies, and I'd like to think we have those customers because we've earned their business the old fashioned way - good prices, great customer service. Sorry, rant off.

But yeah, free isn't really free. The market decides fair value.