combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

KE, we might have bottomed out, but there will always be a representative number of model builders. You still have guys building black powder shootin' irons and pouring their own shot, probably always will....

too bad in the eyes of some it is OK to squander hundreds of thousands of dollars into a program that is doomed to fail, but not OK to have a plan service that meets the membership "half way". .....
but we must be more concerned about the heir of some old pack rat who inherited an attic full of old 1940s plans instead of the good of many members

Who, besides the great Almighty would pretend to know what real impact to the independent plan services discounted plans to AMA members would have?
If I want to build a Comet Clipper and Zeke's Plan Service is the only guy who sells that plan, how does the price of tea in China have any effect on that?

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Yep, and out of those, most if not all would be OK with AMA giving out the plan of choice for each year of membership renewal...if AMA decided to do so...or just about anything else AMA decided to do with the plans...or anything else...it only matters what the AMA wants to do...and in the end, they are right... but nothing wrong with exploring other alternatives either...who knows AMA might change their mind...and that would be OK as well.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

One free [or 1/2 price] plan a year would be a nice little perk, and I'll bet that wouldn't threaten Zeke's Plan Service too much?
Or be too much of a burden on the members at large?

Blue_Sky

I agree, that would be a nice perk and Zeke may have to cut back on buying good whiskey and substituting a lesser brand... Or, maybe an increase in plan building by virtue of the proposed perk would actually increase building interest from plans and Zeke's business would double. Who really knows in a free market economy.

All I'm saying, and I should have said it from the start: IMO plans should be priced at cost. No profit. No loss. I have a hunch the creator of the plan takes a profit from the sale of an AMA plan and is factored into the cost, but I don't know. Regardless of the division of money, plans at cost makes sense to me.

Edited to add: We still don't know the plan price structure. For all we know a plan may only cost the AMA the time it takes an employee to copy, roll up and ship. Plans at cost may actually be plans that are very low cost. Whatever the cost should be the benchmark.

I do however think it would be fine for a CP perk because I'd like to think old Zeke may do even better than his current mainstay and move up to something really special.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Remember, now...LCS gets credit for the "plan plan". We can only hope that a freebee would inspire more guys to build, but the realist [pessimist] in me thinks it would have little impact on "recruiting" new builders, but current "builders" would be ALL OVER IT in a New York minute!

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

No. Though I see how you could take it that way.

I was just noticing that by your definition, everything past the cost of the AMA brick and mortar and the bare essential administrative costs is subsidized at some level. Some more, some less. That's all I was after. Really.

For the record I would be in favor of members receiving a fixed amount of free, small but enlargable, plans every year upon request. Like someone alse pointed out if they (we) can afford a certain other 200K+ program, a free plans program (FPP) would be a fly speck.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

And you'd happily force everyone to pay the dues increase, too, huh? Discussions like this make it abundantly clear to me why our politicians behave in the way in which they do.

KidEpoxy

I believe MA already does provide small plans that would have to be enlarged
just about every month.

If MikeL is opposed to that, it ok, his opinion is as valid as anyone elses.
Perhaps he would like to explain what is wrong with AMA choosing to increase everyones dues like that.

At least MikeL & I agree on this,
if MA ceases giving away those Small Enlargable plans he opposed Robo on, then we should have a coresponding reduction in dues.


Mike,
How much can we expect Dues to drop,
if MA stops with those Small Enlargable Plans it has each month?


... or, perhaps doing like Robo siad with the Small Enlargable Plans
<actually, to continue with doing so>
wouldnt actually be that bad.

So MikeL, if you say dues will increase if we o what Robo said,
wont dues decrease if HQ decides to stop doing it?
And isnt that your whole position:
That you dont want dues going to subsidize Robos/HQs free enlargable plans in MA?

If Robo & Muncie say the same thing,
and you say Robo is wrong,
what are you saying about what Muncie is doing?

Which is ok, all opinions are welcome on the internet.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Which part of the "upon request" portion of what the man said did you ignore? Oh, that's right - - all of it.

KidEpoxy

Oh, I get it now.

You are against AMA giving those plans to someone,
but are ok with them giving them out to everyone.

my mistake

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I hope all who are so vehemently opposed to the free plan idea are those who have always and will always, "walk the same line" in their real lives.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

LOL! Why don't you ask me what I'm against, rather than continuing to make assumptions? Or is that less meaningful to you? It would certainly make this forum more useful if your approach was discarded, but then what would you do?

I'm against subsidizing the plans service. That includes below-cost plans offerings, creating a program under which members can receive free plans at their request, and other such ideas. That should be clear from what I have written, but I know reading is at times challenging. We all do the best we can, right?

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Do you regularly request or receive hand-outs?

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

How about you step off that high horse for a moment and tell us what you are for in regards to the plans service and AMA membership services in general. According to some, anything else, with exception of the physical Muncie site expenses, the President, EC, and a few elderly ladies with Underwood Scriptor typewriters typing up membership cards, is subsidized with your dues. Is your AMA provided insurance a handout? Site retention services?

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

My horse isn't so high. It's that so many of the other horses in here are so low. You guys are pretty similar to a bunch of old ladies in a church basement, gossiping and imagining the outside world while everyone else goes about their business. If you can't realize that, step back and take an objective look at this AMA forum. It's a mess, entirely because of folks like yourself.

I've said, numerous times, that the plans service should be either revenue neutral or turn a surplus. Look at this thread. Somebody complains that they think prices are too high, and you and your ilk decide that something should be done. Someone save the children! Someone save the poor! Something must be done! I have the solutions, who has the problems! What are the problems again? Who cares, I have the solutions! You and your kind have worked yourself into a tizzy because you don't understand the language involved, the concepts involved, and the realities involved. Each one of those trips you up, and rather than applying yourself to learn a thing or two about any of them you'd rather drag everyone else down to your level. The lowest common denominator is rarely a position to which most people aspire.

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

Easy there Trigger. Sounds like you're the one in a tizzy. I merely asked for your opinion and you let loose with that load? "You guys"? "You and your ilk"? "You and your kind"?

Wow. Have your assistant fetch the Prozac.

All that and you didn't even fully answer the question.

KidEpoxy

So, clearly and in no uncertain terms,
you want no subsidy of the plans service, you want it priced AT cost as a minimum.

Ok, so it is the 10% member discount subsidy that you are opposed to?
Cause you have repeatedly said you want NO subsidy of the plans,
which means you think Muncie is wrong to subsidize members getting plans for 10% off.... that 10% has to come from everyones Dues

Think of the dues reduction we could enjoy if we put a stop to that.


Robo,
You have an Ilk?
We've been talking here for years and you never told me you had Ilk.
I feel left out of the loop.

Kemosobie

Post #2 set the tone of this thread. The plans cost what the plans cost. No big deal.If you think they cost too much don't buy them. AMA dues .1589 cents a day. Great deal. Great selection of plans at IMO a fair price.

Minnreefer

That is fine for you to feel that way, but your thoughts are not always the right ones, do you oppose the flying field at the AMA headquarters? do you oppose the mesuem there as well, why should those things be free or subsidized? I don't think anyone is asking for all the plans to be given out for free, but I do think that if there is enough of a demand for it they can figure out a way to raise the revenue on some other things, or reduce the cost of some things.

Mike, I am not sure why you seem to be taking this so personal, and want to call everyone who does not agree with you some type of name or stereotype, but it just does not seem to be needed.

The Toolman

Don't blame me ol'buddy, you all have been doing a nice job of stirring since I'm not around here much anymore.

If you don't like these kind of threads, keep out of'em then, OK?

Ron

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

I never said that they were. I have said that my thoughts are grounded in reality, and that I believe the usual suspects in this forum to be unable to understand what reality is. All one has to do is look at what they've done to this forum. That's not entirely their fault, however.

If my thoughts aren't grounded in reality, I'm be happy to be corrected. I've got no ego involved in my opinions. I would much rather be informed of facts that I'm unaware of or have misinterpreted than the alternative. I'm not married to any of my opinions.

But you'd like a few "perks" for having joined, right? That is, after all, what you said. You want plans to be at a reduced cost to you. Is that a mischaracterization of what you've said? You want the AMA to subsidize the cost of the supplies you need. Is that statement incorrect in any way?

I didn't realize that I've been taking in personally. Thanks suggesting that I have. I don't call everyone who disagrees with me a name, either. I do happily stereotype those who fit into stereotypes, and I'll gladly point out poor thinking when it is used to support a poor argument. If you feel I've done this to you, perhaps you should take it a bit less personally and a bit more constructively? That is, after all, your choice to make. Are you married to your opinions?

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

You also happily avoid answering direct questions. From two people now. Is it NPD that won't allow you to answer or your training?

I do find it curious that you demonstrate the very behavior you say you detest.

How would a free plans service differ from say, insurance, site retention assistance, free club materials, Model Aviation, etc.?

LuftwaffeOberst

That is Scratch building to the extreme! My LHS owner buys balsa by the bulk, and he gets the big blocks that you have to cut yourself.

It's amazing how he does it, but its my personal opinion is scratch building has nothing to do with drawing your own plans or if you cut down a block of balsa or not. To me scratch building is building off of plans that aren’t a kit or short kit. ( Sorry about getting off topic)

I re-newed my AMA tonight. Now it gives me more right to complain if I need too. (It's kind of like someone who doesn't vote doesn't have the right to complain about elections and politics.)

It seems that every time I complain about something, reality has a way of slapping me in the face... making me realize I have nothing to complain about.

AMA is looking out for all of us... is it perfect? No, but nothing is except my Higher Power. Looking at the AMA's yearly expenses... what they get and pay out, it seems they hardly make a profit. So if their prices are a little high in some area's no big deal. Just don't buy their product... that’s all.

Not to be a hypocrite, can we all keep this Thread on Topic before we feel the wrath of the Moderators?

#856404 District II
Radio Aero Modelers Club

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

sorry, something is "going on" with RCU........

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Herr Ober, I was just mostly being facetious [a jolly jokester] by saying that. I do know of a guy in Canada who does mill his own balsa. I agree with you about scratch building, if I have to knife out my own parts......it's a scratch build. If the "21st century" type guys have to CAD their parts, then have them LASER cut, that is also a scratch build in my eyes. I've been doing this stuff long enough, I don't need anyone to tell me what a scratch build really is.