AMA Document 911 Flying at a Chartered Club Site.

For non-AMA members wishing to experience a “hands-on” model flight, the Academy does allow this, on a one-time
basis per person ONLY, (with the use of a Buddy Box system for RC). During this one-time flight, the club is
protected through its liability coverage as long as the non-member’s supervised flying is in accordance with the AMA
National Model Aircraft Safety Code(s). Under NO situation should the non-member’s equipment or aircraft be used.

The only Part of this rule I disagree with is the number of flights per person.

Do you think there should be more than ONE flight allowed per person by the AMA?

Hey, Stick.

Well, we all have our own ideas about how we would like things to be. In your other thread Ol Hoss laid it out just as is it. Between the lawyers and the insurance company from whom AMA buys your and your landlord's insurance this comes to be.

Actually, as stated, a non-AMA member can have 60 days of free, unlimited flights of their own, or any AMA member's airplane, with any of your club's or any other club's Intro Pilots, just for giving some info and signing a document. I do not see where the beef is.

As to Hoss's personal opinions, our club lets the Intro Student fly without joining. After the 60 days, they need to be a member or they can just watch. It is a local thing.

Ken Erickson
CD & Intro Pilot

One is not enough, and unlimited is to many. The pole is to narrow in its numbers allowed. How about no more than 10 flights total.


Vince

I already knew I wanted to get into RC someday before my 1st buddy box experience. Depending on how it's carried out, the 1st buddy box experience could repel as many prospective modelers as it lures in.

I fly where there are a lot of drive by lookie-loos who act very interested until I breakdown the $$$ part, then they're back off to the tavern, bowling alley, movie theater...........

Hey Vince-

How about whatever number the local club decides? I don't see any need for clubs to have it mandated to them by AMA (and I'm pretty sure Hoss doesn't...). Club members are certainly in a better position to observe/decide whether the buddy box experience is bringing in new members for the club and AMA, or just supporting freeloaders. Really don't see it as a liability issue either, as the PIC is always the PIC and as an AMA member he has the insurance. Works for the 1:1 scale GA community - I've done a lot of 'buddy-box' flying in the starboard seat without any sort of sanction from some higher place, or insurance.
Nobody is 'entitled' to even one buddy-box flight. The instructor/buddy that holds the master Tx and owns the equipment is under no obligation to the noob. It's his option as to whether it will be one flight or none. If he can be trusted to exercise his own judgment to decide 'one' without creating problems, what problems are anticipated with letting him decide 'more than one?'

Abel

Abel

The Buddy Box thing is sponsored by the AMA. It is an introduction tool to the Hobby, not an open ended invitation to abuse and someone's opinion. There needs to be a limit to it. I am not and never have been a "What ever they want to do type person". Realistically it needs a limit. Letting individuals decide is not the answer. Its an AMA program, not a Club program. Besides we see daily the results of an anything goes type mentality, and those results are not good !!!!

If the AMA was to provide the whole set-up ready to fly, then it would be THEIR program. Until that day comes about, they don't have a program. All they have is a policy.
It's OK for the insurance company to tell the AMA what the limit shall be, 1 flight is enough. It's not supposed to be a free training program. I'll bet the rule gets fudged daily with no dire consequences, but there still needs to be a rule established to appease the insurance company.

Stick,
You miss read the rule. In your other post Minn laid it out prettty clear.
The one time issue is the 60 days not the flight.
In the 60 days you can have as many flights as are possible.
KW_Counter

The OneTimeOnly applies to the insurance, its actually One Insured Time Only.

This is another example of AMA hq putting forth that no -nonmembers can fly at local clubs,
yet in other threads we see that is not actually the case. AMA has plenty of text worded to make folks believe that non-members cannot fly at local club fields, but we have seen them slip up elsewhere and have text that shows they can.

The One Insured Time Only is so the rookie will be insured with AMA pilot insurance,
but any additional times after that he will simply not have AMA pilot insurance,
unless he 'joins' AMA in one way or another (such as Intro Pilot)

I understand that you can have as many flights in the 60 as you want days through the Intro Pilot Program. The intro pilot instructor (the one who has paid the $5.00) and has this calssification on his AMA card will have to fill out the paperwork on the student for the intro pilot program. I'm not talking about this program. I'm talking about the rule stated above.


I guy shows up one Sunday and is realy interested in flying. He gets his one and only flight and then hangs around to watch. After a few hours he would like to fly one more time before he goes, per the rule I posted above I would have to tell him no. I think that this would discourage him a little and even make him think I do not want to use my time to teach him.

This covers most of the folks that will enjoy the hobby.

There is a very small group of folks like people with autism. These folks could not have the funds to fly. My son fits this group.

I will take a child to an old person up no matter what the ama says. For what I have seen some of the older guys could use a buddy box.

Crash99

I hear you, Crash. There are also lots of folks that while they might be able to afford it, it just isn't cost effective. Once a year a club I belong to has a picnic; wives, GFs, other family and friends, neighborhood assn. officers, and local pols that have been supportive in our keeping the field are welcomed. We tend to 'forget' they had their once-per-lifetime buddy box flight last year and the year before that. Also there are some elders that remain as associate club members but have let AMA lapse. Though they no longer fly regularly they might once in blue moon get the urge to twiddle the sticks again. They are welcome to fly on the buddy box with me, so long as there is nobody present with a compulsion for counting. When my kids went off to college, both time for the hobby and money were tight. Would have been nice if I could have taken them to fly at the club field during the infrequent visits home. I was fortunate to have room enough to fly on my own property, but I know many are not.
The Intro Pilot program is a good thing and I'm not knocking it - I have been an Intro Pilot and I know the program has been streamlined primarily tnx to Dave Mathewson to cut the paperwork, etc. Still, not every guest of of a modeler that shows up at the field is interested in instruction. Often it is simply a social visit and a turn on the buddy box allows a small bit of participation in the activity that adds to the enjoyment for both host and guest. I don't expect a guy that shows up with his wife or GF wants to turn her over to a club instructor, for example, and I for one won't ask if she is AMA if I see her more than once on the flight line with buddy box in hand.

Abel

Rules that are impossible to enforce seldom are.

I'm not even sure I see a need for that, CP. The pilot with the master has control of the flight, and assuming that he's AMA, why should it matter how many times someone goes on the buddy box? They aren't in control. If the PIC's insurance is good for one flight why not 2, 5 or 15? IMO it's a local issue that the club should decide. As someone else says below.....rules that can't really be enforced are pretty much a waste of time.

Bob, I just think that a person needs to ante up before receiving flight instruction at a club field. The safety margin argument via the switch over-ride is not an issue for us to decide, it is entirely up to what the insurance company is liberal enough to concede.

I dont see any reason for someone on a buddy box to need insurance if they are not using their own equipment, Seems to me the pilot in
command would be the responsible party in case of mishap.

You're right Ira, and apparently in concert with the extant AMA position. From the AMA website:

"For non-AMA members wishing to experience a “hands-on” model flight, the Academy does allow this, on a onetime basis per person ONLY, (with the use of a Buddy Box system for RC). During this one-time flight, the club is protected through its liability coverage as long as the non-member’s supervised flying is in accordance with the AMA National Model Aircraft Safety Code(s). Under NO situation should the non-member’s equipment or aircraft be used. ONLY AMA members are insured during this flight per the terms of the liability policy. This coverage is never transferable to the non-AMA member during the permitted one-time trial flight." <emphasis mine>

Ergo the insurance company doesn't have a stake in the buddy box issue. Folks that have an issue with non-members getting instruction without having to ante up first are apparently mixing the Intro Pilot program provisions into the discussion. It is the IP program that provides the non-member with 60 days of instruction, with insurance, at no cost except for the 5 bucks paid by the instructor or his club for the privilege of giving up his own flying time to provide that instruction.

Abel

For the life of me I don't understand why half the respondents chose one flight only. If a buddy box is used why limit it two one flight? I can only assume its becasue of three possibilities, from most likely to least; I don't understand the question, half the respondents didn't understand the questions, or half the respondents are insurance agents.

I think one is enough to give the person a feel for the sport! This one flight is far more then I ever got! I had to build something to get my first flight, join a club and the AMA! Why is it we think now days that we have to make everything so easy for people, that they just can't run into any obstacles; or, they will loose interest? If they are that light on commitment, I really don't care if they are interested in the hobby, anyway.

This "program" hasn't been used very much to my knowledge around here. I'm aware of maybe 5% of what goes on. Anyway, the only example I can think of was with a guy who blew in from who knows where, got his free flight instruction, then blew on outta here never to be seen again. Club members do come and go for many reasons, but this guy knew how the system worked and played our club like a fiddle in "F-minus". This guy obviously had no reason to spend an extra $140 per year on club dues and AMA when that same amount of money could cover an annual beer budget, or buy a nice little engine.
Of course this rule is not enforced strictly everywhere and that's OK. Our prisons are already overflowing with PPPers who break the 2/60 rule.

Well, By Golly and Gee, if they aren't, they darn well should be! [sm=48_48.gif]

.........it's a real shame though Hoss. In the prison riots all the normal inmates have shanks made out of APC props, but the poor PPPers only get to use those bright orange rubber GWS props.

So what are the glow AMA people in for? Breaking the 400 foot rule?

Mostly for getting caught with those titanium props I sell. [8D]

Well at least they make excellent shanks!