Re: AMA
 

Honestly, I have VERY SERIOUS doubts about this statement. I do think the AMA look out for its OWN interest, like many big organisation going out of control.

most of you, guys, don't have anything to compare with. I have, as I have been belonging to the "federation francaise d'aero modelisme" for about 35 years before the AMA. it is extremely surprising, coming from a country where we have laws and reglements for everything, to the country of freedom, to discover there is MORE reglements and limitations here in our activity than in Europe, and LESS protection of our flying fields and frequencies !

Sorry, but the AMA should be the most advanced and powerfull organisation of his type in the world, because of the sheer numbers here, and IT IS NOT ! So something must not be right....

Bernard.

AMA
 

And what Evidence is there that the AMA is only looking out for itself and has become some sort of Evil Empire?

There is no question that any organization has to do unpopular things from time to time to protect itself and those it represents. Just as the Politicians don't always vote in the direction we elected them to . As any recreational activity Model Aviation will always come second to any type of commerce, we Have a need for someone to represent us and so far AMA and the people we elected to it are the only ones willing to give up their time to do it. I am sure there are some folks that have let their so called "position" go to their head but even at that I believe they still have the hobby's best interest at heart, I think the last Election said alot about who the members what representing us when the people that did vote reelected Dave Brown for president. Obviously there were many Like me that didn't trust the alternatives and I did not feel the others did have the best interest of the hobby first and foremost in their minds. (thats another subject) .

Unfortunately , The number AMA has (approx 170,000) is not that much in the big picture, we are a recreational hobby that will always come second to any industrial organization.

Why did the AMA
 

What evidence Dave wants to know:, can you fly at our national flying site in Dec, Jan, Feb comfortably, the national headquarters was not picked with its members in mind. Dave you do not remember the other organization that was stared to represent us, and AMA's response, really neighborly, and about the reelection of Dave B. he really got out the vote, 1 in 10 voted if i remember correctly, In my mind AMA is so out of control no one really cares what goes on in Muncie, and the only reason to belong is to be able to fly at local AMA sanctioned field & events.

goooooooooooooooooooooo
 

wat to go taildragger you hit the nail on the head, i am glad that the gentleman is in the minority, lets change someone


dennis1943 :confused: :confused:

AMA
 

1st- I do know about the SFA , They cut their own throats, They tried to Hammer the AMA with FALSE accusations and lost and got nailed on the counter .

2nd- AS I stated " the people that did vote" wanted Dave Brown, It is not the AMA's fault that 90% of the members really don't care or are just to Lazy to do so.

3rd- I wouldn't matter where they put the Headquarters, the same number of people would be complaining , Needless to say they picked a spot where the cost of business or living is reasonable. Even if they had it up for vote , they would have had to narrow it down to a few places which the majority would never agree on. and whos to say it wouldn't have ended up in the same spot anyway, I really don't care where it is, I will visit someday but I am no no hurry.

4th- In what way are they out of control ?

5th- There is not a Club out there that is forced to be chartered by AMA, IF a club wanted to search out another insurance carrier they are out there, YES it will probably cost MUCH MORE, According to many posts here the AMA insurance is worthless so you really don't need it anyway , Everybody has home owners liability coverage don't they ? Clubs CHOOSE to use AMA because it is the best CHOICE. I flew for years without AMA Until I realized I was not helping the Hobby what so ever and decided to start doing my part to keep this one of the most fun and creative hobbies around. If I had an objective for the AMA it certainly would not be to make it what I wanted but to do what is best for the hobby and organization as a whole. I is very hard to separate Personal Preference from the good of the community. I am not ready to sacrifice the amount of my time that would be needed to be a deciding officer, and I thank we owe a little gratitude to SOME of the folks that do.


I am by no means saying we should all be sheep although it appears 90% are content or we would have a bigger vote turnout. If you want changes, the first change must be with the Members involvement, Until then the elected people have no choice but to do what they feel is best . These Decisions may not always be the correct one or the most popular one .

If there is some sort of corruption going on then lets hear the Specifics and quit Guessing and assuming , and start getting it corrected.

Re: AMA
 

Isn't it? You'd think an organization created to serve the needs of its members would have a vested interest in those members having an interest in its affairs. Overwhelmingly, we don't. What's that say?

To me it says that 90% of the members are there only because their clubs require it for insurance purposes. AMA leadership refuses to acknowledge that, and continues to believe they are serving some higher purpose. They're out of touch.

Whatever happened to this topic being about why the helicopter column wasn't in the magazine?!?

Why did the AMA
 

Well when no AMA official ever comes to your local field in over 5 years, when the AMA loses your hard earned dues in the stock market, when the AMA President Dave Brown will not come on line to answer questions in the last presidential election, and oh I do believe it matters greatly where the national headquarters are located. A mid winter national contest would be a great service for the members, but again the AMA has dropped the ball. Now they have teamed up with RC Airport, a on line site with how many hundred members, as opposed to RCU with more than 16,000 and growing each day, with industry reps on duty to answer questions. this is only a few of the things that come to mind as to why AMA is out of control, and out of touch with its members............. Now why wasn't that Chopper report in the last issue of AMA's rag.

AMA
 

1- I have lost thousands in the market so far but plan on making it back in time, I am sure the AMA will do the same.

2- I don't blame Dave for not coming to any of these forums given the immaturity and rudeness of SOME (NOT ALL) of posters here, I sure would not want to weed threw all the useless BS to get to the serious material, shoot , the manufacturers reps that come here practical get tared and feathered at times.

3- I think the Heli print question has been answered, There probably wasn't one to print.

4- as for your rep not making his rounds , take it up with him. Keep in touch with him threw Email . Don't wait for him to contact you.

5- There are no rules stating a national event must be at the Muncie site. Put in a proposal for one at some site further south or where ever.

6- DID the AMA actually say they lost money in investments or did they say they fell short of expected gains.

Re: AMA
 

Such is the burden of elected office, eh? He's making the choice not to use a two-way channel of communication with his constituents. For some reason only one VP on the EC does. Ask yourself if that is reasonable in this age of easy and convenient communication. Is a bit of their time too much to ask?

Why did the AMA
 

Dave,

I couldn't agree with you more. From what I have seen, at times, there are people flying r/c airplanes who could probably benefiet from an AMA membership, especially if they were to trouble themselves to read and practice the rules and regulations found therein. It would be tough to give a reasonable argument against most of them. They are all designed to enhance the safety and pleasure of our hobby. If one were to think about it, the insurance offered with an AMA membership is quite a deal and I can't imagine that it would be prudent to fly with out it.

Jim Whitaker AMA 699498

Why did the AMA
 

;)

Just my opinion, but I enjoy seeing what is happening in areas outside my main interest which is RC Sport and Slope flying. If we want to build and maintain the membeship it is appropriate to cover all aspects of the model airccraft hobby. For example, U Control. There is a revival in this area and it is a cheap way for new flyers to get into the hobby.

SloFlyer :)

Why did the AMA
 

Hi Dave,
In response to your comments:
1: You may have lost money but you made a decision to invest in whatever stocks you chose, I did not choose the stocks or even approve of the investments, in fact I (the membership)was not consulted about any of this.

2: You will never get a straight answer from DB or most of the people on the EC. Everything is phrased in generalities or excuses given why they can't answer. Since DB seems to be President for life, he really doesn't have to respond or answer to anyone. If you know DB you will know he's real good in the transmit mode and not so good in the receive mode.
The President of the US can only serve two terms, however the Predident of AMA can serve as long as he wants.

4: You would think that the VP's would want to "beat the bushes" and get with the members and clubs in their district. Guess not.

If a group of guys get together and get their own field and insurance they better not let AMA find out about it. They'll do the same thing to them that they did to SFA. I know the SFA saga first hand, I knew Elliot for MANY years, and I am well aware of all the things AMA did to keep their monopoly on model aviation.

When you say the EC are doing what's best for Model Aviation, ask yourself how many of these guys have built and/or flown any model airplanes recently. Not many I'll bet, so how can they know "what's best"? Most don't seem to have a clue of what's going on "out at the field".

DB and the EC know that 90% of the membership could care less what they do, it's all about insurance for them, and the other 10% can be ignored and therefore they can carry on with their agenda's.

I agree with a post on another thread that their first priority is to maintain AMA's tax status. I guess it's always about money.

In closing, the average age of members is supposedly 60, so in 10-15 years none of this will matter, most of us will be gone and model aviation will be a shell of what is now.
Regards,
Jon

AMA
 

I hear the term that the EC has lost touch with the real M/A world quite often, What examples of this do you have ? How do you know they are no longer active hobbyist, to be honest if I was on the EC , or a VP I would not have much time for building or flying ether, I barely find time for it as it is.

Dave Brown will probably be pres. for a long time, at least until somebody more worthy of the position comes along, and the membership takes the time to vote for them. So far I haven't seen anyone come along that I trust more than Brown.

I've been part of a non- AMA field, flew for years without AMA, AMA didn't give us any problems what so ever. .

Enough of the SFA Crud... They cut their own throats and if you are familiar with it you already know it.

Why did the AMA
 

We each have are own niche in this great hobby that we all enjoy. Why do "you" feel you should try and bash someone else's model aircraft enjoyment. Have you ever tried any other area of this hobby? If not you are missing out on a lot of other areas of enjoyment. Apparently you have tunnel vision and can't see the forest through the trees. People like you make others not want in the hobby. If all you want to do is complain about everything why don't you do something creative and change the way things are. The AMA seems to do the best they can for us "modelers", so lets see some of your excess energy used to make "modeling" better.

AMA
 

Actually I don't have a problem with complaining, It's the complaining without substance that I don't like to see, Peoples opinions based on Rumor and other peoples opinions . If you want to complain about the AMA then lets get the specifics out and see what can be done to fix it. Making negitive generalizations is useless and makes you look uninformed and to lazy to find out the facts .

Why did the AMA
 

Hi David,
My position on AMA is that it's an organization that does not communicate, value or consider the input from it's members. I have no problem with having an AMA, my problem is that they (DB and the EC) have lost sight of what the organization goals are. IMHO promotion should be their first priority instead perpetuating the organization and their position within it. I'm sure you disagree with my position, and that's fine. The majority rules and since members either don't care to vote or agree with you, and there never seems to be any turnover in Muncie, that's the way the system works. But as member of the loyal opposition, I certainly have a right to express my opinion and effect change as best I can.
That being said, and not wishing to "look uninformed and to lazy to find out the facts" here's some specific examples:

About 8 years ago someone was elected to the EC and the EC voided his victory stating that he didn't have enough "business experience" to be on the EC. They didn't care that he was elected by the members of his district, he just wasn't good enough for them. I could do the research and give you a specific name and date, but it's not really worth the time.

Around the same time the President decided to "control the content" (I call it censorship) of the VP's columns in MA. The columns used to discuss EC and/or AMA business. The discussions got pretty lively at times until the President stepped in and put an end to it. The only thing the columns contain now are, for the most part, coverage of district events.

AMA moved from Va to Muncie virtually "overnight". There was no discussions or input with the membership as to alternate locations, etc. It's a slight exaggeration, but it was basically on Friday they were in Reston, Monday in Muncie.

DB had a column in MA several years ago about an incident regarding a turbine model that was flown around dusk. It had lights and was flown by Wolfgang Khlur, several time world jet champion. The information presented by DB was, at best, half truths and presented in such away that the membership was given false and misleading information. Instead of checking and getting the facts right. One thing about DB, it's always "fire-aim-ready". He admitted at the end of the column that no rules had been broken, but it was "still wrong". He then had a rule passed that turbine powered models are not allowed to fly in periods of darkness or reduced visibility. Of course the rule was not well thought out; I can fly a 200 MPH ducted fan model at night but not a 100 MPH turbine. Huh? If speed's the issue, what difference does the power plant make?

All these issues have been debated ad nauseum and I don't want get into another discussion about them however you wanted specific expamles so I gave you some. I'm sure you disagree with all of the above but I had to respond to your accusations that I'm uninformed and lazy, because I'm neither.

I'm going back to work on my 106.

Regards,
Jon

AMA
 

Hello Jon, My comments about being Lazy was not directed at anyone specific, I thank you for posting your opinion on actual incidents that you are concerned with vs the rant with no reason that some others do. I would agree that the incidents you mention are a concern and I will see what I can do to address these issues starting with getting more information from my Local Associate VP and such, AS you may have read here many times, there are always two sides to every story. I hope you are willing to do what you can do as well. But I can almost guarantee its not going to get fixed here , the numbers of members willing to do anything are just not on-line.

If we want changes we are going to find people who are not just willing but qualified to make the decisions , there is no way this organization can operate on member votes, the cost of putting every move to the members would be to great, and sense we can't get at least 50% of the membership to vote anyway would be a useless system. We have to rely on our VPs and EC to represent us .


I am not willing to say the incidents you mention mean that the AMA has lost all touch with its members , they may have made some bad judgments but the fact is these problems have to Be dealt with at that time , not years later, and its going to take some initiative from the members .

I think the biggest thing You and I can do is try to get more of the membership to take interest in the AMA instead of just building and flying. It is always been my belief that promotion of this hobby is at the local level , and I believe the AMAs part in promotion is to assist us at the local level . There definitely can be some improvement there in providing Literature , Special deals on trainers and buddy boxes , Perhaps even rewards for clubs getting more folks in the air. I do not believe it is going to help to do much nationally by the AMA, the cost for TV and Radio is just more than the Members are willing to fork over, But some ads in other mags. in such would be a good point to start.

Why did the AMA
 

I think it is an OK magazine. It has to cover all aspects of this hobby, not just the popular ones like the for profit rags.....Give them a break. I look forward to recieving mine each month
I am a "mainstream R/C'r but I enjoy reading about other aspects of model aircraft. I will never forget the great time I had at the Nats. back in 91 or 92. I went from the frenzy of control line combat, to the flawless flying of R/C pattern to the majestic and awe inspiring indoor penny planes. I love all airplanes and enjoy reading about them :)
B-

gone
 

db you need some help the nut that holds your head on is loose
\
dennis1943 :confused: :confused:

Why did the AMA
 

Hi David,
First I would like to thank you for keeping this conversation civil. Usually these things end up with each person attacking the other. Reasonable people can disagree on methods even though they desire the same goal.
You’re right; there is a lot of complaining with little of substance so here are my recommendations:
1. Limit the EC and the President to two consecutive terms. No organization can grow and prosper without the influx of new ideas.
2. Require input from the membership on any proposal that has a fundamental impact on the organization, such as changes to the by-laws, new regulations, etc. Obviously the members can’t be consulted on every thing, but the EC should get input for the real important issues. Each VP has a web page and it shouldn’t be too difficult to construct a “poll and comments page” with a check box next to several alternatives.
3. AMA should add a page showing the motions and who voted how. It shouldn’t be up to the members to contact the VP’s on how they voted. It is up to the member to contact the VP as to why he voted that way.
4. In the interest of safety awareness AMA should list the accidents, leaving out names and any other identifying personal information, listing the injury, cause and settlement if available. I can go to the NTSB web site and get up to date info on aircraft incidents/crashes, why not the AMA (I know AMA’s “line” why they won’t do it, but IMHO it’s bogus).
There’s more but these are the main issues that I feel that needs to be addressed.

As far as promotion of modeling is concerned there are lots of grass roots activities that clubs can do.
Local clubs can have an “open house” allowing the public and officials to see what the hobby is all about. The district VP should be there, at least for awhile, to mingle and get the ear of the officials and politicians that always show up to explain what the AMA is, the need for fields, insurance, etc.
SPORT PLANES should be in the air all day. IMAC, giant scale, turbines should not! The entry-level type and sport planes should be featured; the other models just scare people off. It drives me NUTS when I go to an IMMA fun fly and a spectator asks a modeler how much is his plane and he proudly says “I’ve got over $2000 in it”. The spectator’s eyes bug out and we’ve lost another potential modeler. In fact, when I tell people I fly models, the univeral res;ponse is"Wow, that's an expensive hobby!" Ggrrr. If these types of planes are there and put on a demo it should be emphasized it’s the pinnacle of modeling and not typical of what most modelers fly. The club can usually borrow a PA system at no cost from a local electronics store by giving them a plug every hour. The club can ask for parking donations, sell hot dogs, etc to generate some revenue. The event can be publicized the week before in the local newspaper: they are always looking for stories of local interest and will usually come out, take some pictures and write some copy. The local TV stations usually have a segment of “activities this weekend” that the announcement can run the day before the event.
At the event have the usual buddy box set-up but go after the “over 40” crowd, as well as the kids. The “over 40” usually has the money and time to be successful in the hobby.
AMA can support this grass root effort by producing a video showing a general overview of model aviation and then explaining what steps are necessary to solo, including-yes-crashes. AMA should send a master to the club and they can get copies made and tag line added about the local club. Any wedding or dance videographer can make copies and add a simple tag line, again giving him a plug every hour. The club is not going to need a lot of tapes, probably 10-15. Give a copy of the tape to those people who took a flight on the buddy box and show an interest, NOT to everyone! Leaving fliers out is just a waste of paper.
I apologize to all the U/C and FF guys for not mentioning them, I’ve flow both many years ago (more than I want to mention!) and they could certainly would be welcome, but the reality is almost every person that is interested and gets in the hobby flies r/c and that’s where we should concentrate our efforts.
I’ve taken enough bandwidth.
Jon

Why did the AMA
 

Hi everyone,
Sorry for the syntax and spelling errors, the biggest being and they could certainly would be welcome should be "they certainly would be welcome".
It's getting late.
Jon

Why did the AMA
 

There are threads on related RC forums stating that there is little to no real desire to bring in more newcomers. Then even after purchase of the trainer, newbies are in for a bit of a shock, when it comes to getting help.
See: http://webhome.idirect.com/%7eironsidz/instructor.htm

Chances are, they were not told of the hoops some clubs make beginners go through to receive an adequate amount of instruction, if they were, it would be very difficult for the hobby shop owner to make the sale. All the public is told before purchase was to join a club and they would be trained...period.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

Why did the AMA
 

Hi,
Hi. lets face it, we are a closed society. We talk a good line about newcomers but not much is done at the national or local level. If we don't get new people we do so at our own peril. It's going to take an effort, and change of attitude on everyone's part, AMA and clubs, to succeed. A big part of it is "checking your ego at the door".That why I feel that a short video, maybe 15 minutes, for those interested in the hobby would be helpful. It would give them something to take home and look at and reflect whether they want to make the commitment. Most won't but a few will. Not an instructional video but a realistic scenario of what's involved in successfully reaching the solo stage. Then it's up to the clubs to follow through.
Back in the early fifties when I was a kid a fellow showed me how to do a loop with my Ringmaster. I was so happy and thanked him but felt bad because I couldn't do anything to repay him. I never forgot what he said those many years ago " You can repay me by helping out another modeler however you can and by doing that you give back something to the hobby."
Regards,
Jon

AMA
 

Jon- I think your Ideas are reasonable and do-able in some degree or another.

As far as bringing in new people, If the URL provided by fliers1 is the norm of clubs out there no wonder your area is not growing, I can say with reasonable esurance it is not the case at our club, educating new people is something our club and as far as I know clubs in our are take seriously and do a good job. It is definatly not the fault of the AMA if your club isN running off new people.

You will unfortunatly run into Eago Problems in most any club from time to time , we usually know who they are and keep them away from the new folks, or warn the new guy in advance. ;)


Here is a short list of what a New person has to look forward to in our club.

- They get unlimited use of a very nice flying facility that has a Simi-hard surface and grass runway, Paved parking, covered Shelter, Concrete walkways , Picnic Benches, BBQ grill , Usually drinking beverages are available , secured equipment Building , all built and provided and Maintained by the Club.

2- Aircraft Prep training , We teach everything from assembly of ARFS to building from sticks , starting and maintaining engines and radios, a class at the beginning of each club meeting exclusively for beginners.

3- flight training - Unlimited training by experienced pilots on specific days and times , plus flexible schedules for one on one training. No deadlines , learn at your own pace.

4- Aircraft inspection and set up training, Experienced pilots will inspect your set up for problems before it is flown each training day and explain the problem.

5- Use of Club Buddy box systems.

6- Use of Club Trainer if needed

7- Discounts at local Hobby Supply

8- Notification of up coming events

9- Aviation Video Archive

10- Not to mention the peace of mind of a little liability coverage just in case.

IMO this is no small list and worth every Penny . If your Club does not have a similar list, WHOS FAULT IS THAT, NOT THE AMA.

Re: AMA
 

Mr. Bowles:

Please allow me to say that I find the discussion between you and Jon to be very informative. IMO, a good discussion between two opposites on the 'totem pole'.
Your comments intrigues my interest concerning the TV/Radio area. There is no way AMA could afford such advertising and expect any return. AMA DOES buy advertising in other magazines, such as RCM, MAN and right now all my examples are out in the work shop, I do have the Fall, 2002 issue of IMAA's "High Flight" at my reach and one can find on page 42 a full page COLOR ad for AMA.
"High Flight" is an in-house mag. for IMAA members who must also be members of AMA. I ask you, "Is that preaching to the choir?" Is that money well spent? You decide for yourself.
Considering preaching to the choir, why does the EC so adamantly refuse to consider placing "MA" on the newsstands? RCM and MAN and on a lesser scale "Flying Models" are able to afford that *luxury*, so why not "MA"?

Why does "MA" have an advertising rep. at a nice 20% commission while the other mags. do it in-house? "MA" claims they have to do too much editorial pages to be competitive. Well has anyone examined the slickest mag going, *RC Excellence* which comes free with my $25 membership to RCCA? LOTS of editorial space, beautifully done, and comparably few ads.
IMO, the current leaders of the AMA have little inclination to promote model aviation beyond that which they can touch.

Concerning the media, would it not be a fair item if the local news stations were good at promoting the local modeling events for the weekend as a part of their local news coverage? Would it not be nice if the major news stations had a short blurb saying something like, "Today the team members of the Academy of Model Aeronautics, returned from XXX, where they placed XXX in an International Competition for XXX aeromodeling sport. Thanks AMA for spreading this goodwill, etc., etc."

IMO, the AMA has entrenched itself into the Insurance Business. This current program to divide AMA into several corporations and/or own other corporations has diverted all attention into making more and more rules that simply will not and cannot be enforced at the local level. The so called Safety Code has become simply the EC's rule book. So many rules and so much legislation on clubs with no tangible benefits; these are the items that turn away all so many newcomers and older-comers too. AMA just keeps digging its own grave.

And to Jon: You can find all the answers to who voted for what on the AMA web, under the Executive Council minutes. OTOH, should all members have to look there? I think each member should state his ideas and opinions in his column. If they don't it is the fault of the collective EC.
Let me make one political statement and that is if I should be so *unfortunate* (:-)) as to be elected to the EVP position, you will soon find a web site where much information well beyond the *Minutes* will be available, and you will be directed to that web where AMA censorship will NOT prevail.

Horrace Cain
AMA 539 CD/Leader
Candidate for AMA EVP