"illegal" hovering
 

I have heard rumors about AMA restricting 3D flying to away from the runway. But why??? The only people that do this are people that are top grade pilots. AND there are a very few amount of members in each club that even fly 3D. The other thing that pisses me off is the lack of attention AMA gives to the west coast. We get nothing out here!! Anyway, I had to complain. The hovering thing really pisses me off!! Lemme know what everyone thinks.

"illegal" hovering
 

Have you read anything supporting this rumor? To me it's not worth getting worked up about something that may or may not be true.

"illegal" hovering
 

The following excert is from the 2003 Safety Code, on the AMA web site.

8) With the exception of events flown under AMA Competition rules, after launch, except for pilots or helpers being used, no powered model may be flown closer than 25 feet to any person.
9) Under no circumstances may a pilot or other person touch a powered model in flight.

Re: "illegal" hovering
 

This is a very common, yet IMO wrong, way of looking at the issue. Don't look at this as a slap to the ego of 3d pilots, look at it as a way of trying to ensure the safety of others nearby regardless of the skills of the 3d pilot.

What makes you think that "top grade" people are immune from interference, mechanical failures, or even the occasional dumb-thumb ? If a 3d pilot is flying his aircraft 5 ft away from me and he gets a radio hit such that this admittedly awesome pilot is in fact no longer piloting the aircraft... how does the pilot's skill level protect my soft pink body from this aircraft that is no longer listening to his commands ? If the same scenario happens with the aircraft now 25 ft from me - well, I still wouldn't want to be there, but at least the increased separation gives me a little better chance of surviving.

Requiring a minimum separation between the aircraft and people for safety reasons seems perfectly reaonable and logical. The pilot is still allowed to keep the aircraft as close to himself or his "helpers" as he wishes as long as he keeps it 25 ft away from anyone else. Doesn't seem like much of a restriction to me. Go out and fly it as close to yourself as you want, when you are the only active pilot within a 25ft radius.

Gordon

Re: Re: "illegal" hovering
 

Very well said... it's all about safety and assuring that someone doesn't get hurt.

Yes, very well said indeed
 

A couple of weeks ago we were with Mike Caglia at the field when he was practicing his freestyle for the TOC.

He was hovering in front of us when suddenly the plane hopped the fence and was coming straight at our heads.
It was obvious that Mike never intended this maneuver in fact he was noticeably shaken.
When he brought the plane back into the pits he found that when his elevator Gimbel's were in the full up elevator position and some force (minimal) was applied, that the signal actually reversed and went to full down elevator with the Gimbel still in the full up elevator position.
I consider myself lucky that it was such an experienced pilot on the stick. If it were me, I would have probably panicked and who knows what could have happened.

The scenario speaks for itself.
Plane $10K Radio $1K
Pilot skill level $ Priceless

It can happen to anyone. No matter how good you are or the equipment you use

"illegal" hovering
 

Most of us tend to think of hovering in terms of the TOC style. Take a look at this well performed hover. It may make you think twice. Remember, the EC has to deal with this too, and at least some of them have seen it.

http://www.jcrc.com/images/ZIMages/P...14-02%2011.AVI

This .AVI file takes a while to load, but, for most of you, it will give you something new to think about.

JR

"illegal" hovering
 

Now try this one

http://www.jcrc.com/images/ZIMages/P...-14-02%209.AVI

Thoughts?

"illegal" hovering
 

Put it this way, if you were the one in charge of insuring RC flying events would YOU want to see this style of flying with 40% monsters in close proximity to crowds of spectators? Can someone say liability nightmare? And who's to say that these pilots are all 'top-notch'? I have seen some flying from less than fantastic pilots that borders on recklessness. The farther away from me the better.

"illegal" hovering
 

I enjoy watching 3D flying and with my new Sig CAP hopefully I'll learn to do some of those manuvers soon. However, I think the runway is for takeoffs and landings. If you want to hover, do it somewhere else. I don't care if it's 20' past the runway, just not over it since chances are there ARE other people that want to use it as well.

"illegal" hovering
 

Points 8 and 9 in JR's email make perfect sense. First, why would anyone want to put themselves that close to a pair (or three) whirring blades, much less another pilot who is tryin to pay attention and maintain his own aircraft. And why would someone want to reach out and "touch" "catch" or "fondle" an aircraft in high AOA/ high risk maneuvers. Yes, it looks cool when you get away with it, and YES, its going to be a gigantic mess to clean up when something goes wrong.

As for the comment about only top rated pilots flying in that manner, I dont think that argument has any merit. 3d flying is definately a showstopper, and I am sure it has attracted more than a few new pilots. What's to keep a newbie whos got a few weeks of soloing under his belt from trying to copy one of the "top rated pilots"? Everyone has a learning curve, and I am sure youre very good pilot 3dbatixkid, but everyone crashes, and poop happens that we have absolutely no control over (Mike Caglia's incident shows that). People by nature try to emulate and copy things they think are cool, its just that some go about it in a little more cautious and safe manner than others.


Key things to remember here, tolerance and common sense. If we are unable to excercise common sense, and monitor/police ourselves, then it will be done for us. Then we will all gripe and moan about the changes. If youve seen someone get caught by a prop on a .40 size engine (1.2 hp, 10x6 prop), imagine what damage a DA150 (16 hp, 32/10 prop) would do. That combo is larger than most lawnmower engine/blade packages. I for one do not want to be on the receiving end of either the prop, or the bloodsplatter from the prop hittin someone else.

Steve

"illegal" hovering
 

Yeah I thik it is all fun and games until someone gets an eye put out. Notice this guy actually uses his right hand to catch and release this model, now my question would be, which mode of transmitter is he using?????

"illegal" hovering
 

JR ,

The video is not opening, it is requesting for a codec .

It's downloaded but cannot play . Let me know the remedy .

Cheers

"illegal" hovering
 

I'm not sure what the problem is. If you are using Windows, try downloading Microsoft's MediaPlayer or Real Player. The package should include the codec's. You may have an older version or no version of one of those.

JR

"illegal" hovering
 

JR ,

I am using Windows Media Plyer with Office XP .

Still giving me the error mesage of codec .

Is it compatible with with Real Player .

Cheers.

"illegal" hovering
 

arjunchopra

It's not my site, so I really have no idea. Let me try to describe what it depicts, it may save you the headache of trying to view it.

A guy is hovering a Pizza Box flyer. He hover's up to himself, and grabs it. He then turns 180 degrees and flings it out. If you are not familiar with the PBF, there are seveal threads on them, with pictures, on RCU under the funfly forum.

Anyone else? is that an accurate description?


arjunchopra, I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. Maybe someone else on here can give you a hint or two.

JR

Hover
 

3DBAT,
Try to think a little past the end of your nose. If you want to do 3D at arms length do it if you are the only one at the field. All the pilots skills cannot correct an electrical or mechanical problem. I should think that you could see that the ruling is to protect people from danger.

"illegal" hovering
 

While this statement may not be popular, I think that anyone flying at a field should automatically wave the right to sue the club or property owner if injured. If someone wants to fly 3D at arms length and loose that arm then it is their choice.

I hear that the family of the guy in Colorado who killed himself with his own plane is suing. TO me that is crazy!

"illegal" hovering
 

You're right, the guy should not sue for his own faults - his mistake, his (and his families) loss. However if someone cuts MY arm off because they want to show off, then you can bet that I'll beat them upside the head with my bloody stump. No one has the right to choose for me. It's neat to watch and one day I might try it, but when I do I'll be the one deciding. When someones on the flight line they're looking at their model, not some schlep with a 40% whatever trying to hover 5' in front of him.

- Joe

"illegal" hovering
 

All i have to say is when are people going to take responsibility for them selves..... If your hit w/ the plane in the first place why was you standing that close......Why did you get in your vehicle and drive to the event.....i'm sure there's a great possibility of getting killed getting to the flying Field......come-on folks...AMA as screwed enough up......

"illegal" hovering
 

weatherly

Always remember this about the AMA Safety Code: read it is if it said 'EXCLUSIONS TO YOUR AMA INSURANCE' because that is exactly what it is. If you violate the new distance and touching rules, you have no insurance. If your club allows them to be violated, the club has no insurance.

JR

responsibility
 

Weatherly
As long as juries allow the large awards they do, for not being responsible for your own actions, it will never happen.

"illegal" hovering
 

What really gets me is the people that hover over the runway while others are flying the pattern. 20 feet/25 feet/30 feet---I don't care if it is 100 feet....If others are flying a normal pattern, hovering over the runway should be made illegal. I've called "Landing!" to no avail. It is just plain RUDE, not to mention unsafe, to do this over the runway when normal flight ops is going on. Rules have been imposed but the 3D flyers start out over the edge of the runway only to creep closer. Several models have crashed in the pits. A few have had to duck to keep from getting hit in the head. WHEN WILL THE AMA PUT AN END TO THIS BEHAVIOR!!!! WHEN SOMEONE GETS KILLED?!?!?!?! In one club in Memphis there is a great divide between the 3D'ers and the folks that just want to fly a normal pattern. I won't join until this issue is settled. I wish that the 3D'ers that fly in this manner would get a clue.....

Kevin

"illegal" hovering
 

It is not up to the AMA IMO, it is up to the guys at the local level, as you can make all the rules in the world at a national level, but they must be enforced locally.

"illegal" hovering
 

I also hate when I yell "Coming in" and just then two guys taxi out to the runway for takeoff. Last week I just about had it and expressed my opinion. Being short tempered, things like that push me past the point of enjoyable flying to the RC equivilant of road rage. It's just plain rude and a blatent sign of disrespect.

However, if you've got the field to yourself with no-one else on the flightline or in the air then by all means have some fun. That's what it's all about. Just don't hover 10-feet in front of me while I'm trying to pay attention to my model 500-feet away. I can't pay enough attention to your model to feel safe while I'm trying to fly.

"illegal" hovering
 

Taildrager,

I understand what you mean by being enforced at the local level, but.....The rude 3D guys claim that since there aren't any rules at the national level concerning hovering over the runway then it's OK to do what they perceive as "normal" flying. Rude, yes, illegal---no. They perceive all of the complaints against them as *****ing and continue to fly as they please. Most of these are not the very large models but the little .40 size machines that get harder to see further out. Then, to make matters worse, when landing some of them, when coming out of a hover, will do this real fast circle in front of your face and land in any direction they please!!! (Including toward themselves and the pits!!!) The safety officer in this club won't say too much to these individuals because they are his friends.

I also agree that when no one else is flying, do as you please as long as it is safe. The helis are made to hover in the heli hover area---If you are going to hover your airplane like a heli then go to the heli area. Have a blast!!! Cut up!!! Hover your head off!!! Have fun!!! But, don't hover over an active runway!!!!

Kevin

interesting......
 

I think we really have two issues going on here......


Issue one is rude flyers. We have all seen rude 3D pilots, but I challenge anyone on this forum to tell me they have never seen a rude pilot flying another discipline. Regardless of the style they fly (3d, electrics, gliders, pylon) there are still rude people. In all my years of flying, I have seen people flying every type of discipline act in a rude fashion to the others sharing the field. If I walk out in the middle of the runway with my handlaunch glider and stay out there 5 minutes, I am blocking the runway just like the 3D'ers are and the turbine pilot that sits forever at the end of the runway running up his engine and burning the grass. -----Deal with rude people at the local level, because that is where they are.

BTW, I have also seen very polite, cogniscent 3D pilots and have the pleasure to fly with several each weekend at my club.

Issue two is Safety. Safety rules have to prevent injury due to two factors, pilot capability and equipment failure (maybe others). As mentioned earlier in the post, even the best pilot cannot completely avoid equipment failure, and there is a learning curve for those learning these new maneuvers. The rules mentioned above do not seem to make 3d Hovering illegal, they just put a safety barrier between you and I and the "new hoverer" or the guy with the battery that is coming 'down' its last cycle while performing these maneuvers.

Matchlessaero
Profile Brother #27

Flunkyone
 

"illegal" hovering
 

Lots of discussion about crashes - it should be mentioned that there were two of them at this year's TOC. Neither was any danger to the spectators, the point is that they happen to all of us, including the best. By coincidence, one of them was Mike Caglia, the other was Jason Shulman.

"illegal" hovering
 

you can stop the codec prob by going to www.divx.com downloading the new version of it 4 free and install it
it will fix all the media players codac errors

"illegal" hovering
 

I would recommend flying a cheap sacrificial plane. Call "landing" (even better, "dead stick")and come on in,when the ensuing collision trashes a $5000.00 aircraft, maybe the rude flyers will get a clue.

"illegal" hovering
 

Coupla points in response to the above:

1) Since the AMA provides our insurance, it certainly is up to them to decide which kind of activity is or is-not covered by that insurance. From this comes a basic safety code that all AMA chartered clubs must adopt as their minimum.

2) It is much easier for clubs to deal with safety issues when they can point out that the AMA "backs them up" on the issue at hand. When the issue is an AMA rule, it has the full weight of the AMA behind it; when it's a rule that exists only at the club level, lots of folk figure it's unimportant and they can argue their way out of any confrontation by pointing out that if the issue were real, the AMA would have ruled on it already.

Gordon

"illegal" hovering
 

...and when your deliberate mid-air causes that big airplane to break out of its hover and hit the poor guy on the next flight-station, what then ? Walk over to the corpse and say "Sorry about that Charlie - but at least Fred may have now learned not to hover over the runway... you were just the price that I figured had to be paid for that lesson" ??

Gordon

P.S. I realise that your post may not have been "serious", but felt that before someone took your idea to heart, the above should be pointed out.

"illegal" hovering
 

What Gordon said. :thumbup:

"illegal" hovering
 

Another issue that clubs need to think carefully about relates to the Safety Code. Rule 3 states: Where established, I will abide by the safety rules for the flying site I use, and I will not willfuly and delibertly fly my models in a careless, reckless and/or dangerous manner.

A club should think carefully before making safety rules and eliminate any that are not necessary. One way to approach it is the way the AMA does on areas outside of the Safety Code. That is to make 'recommendations'. The AMA uses this on things like Site Specifications. Always keep in mind that the Safety Code can be retitled 'Exemptions to your AMA insurance'. Rule 3 of the AMA Safety Code incorporates the club safety rules into those exemptions.

Bottom line: if the rule is absolutely needed, make it, if not, don't.

JR

"illegal" hovering
 

The sad thing is that we are even talking about this. This is a SPORT for FUN. I know it's fun and seems very benign, but when you really think about it flying in such close proximity is dangerous. I'm not talking about a 16oz zagi flying 2 feet off the deck doing fly bys but even those with 1/4 and 1/3 scale cubs doing fly-bys down the center of the runway, hello, I'm 10 feet from your wingtips man! Even more dangerous as that as I'm flying my attention is not on the plane dangerously close to me but my plane out there. I can't watch both at the same time and therefor need some assurances that there will be some sort of warning before a plane gets too close. At our field we call "coming in", "going out", "deadstick", etc. to signal a plane is on or will be on the runway. Other than that you should be away from it at least enough to not inhibit normal traffic patterns. If the flyers enjoy watching you fly at least say "no one minds me taking it up for a few minutes, do they?" and I'm sure everyone - me including - will sit back and enjoy from a safe distance (under the shade of our awning!)

"illegal" hovering
 

About a year ago, our club (410 members) began dealing with the influx of 3D flying close-in. Obviously liability is a big thing nowadays and getting 410 people to all co-exist with the multitude of aircraft variations they fly is another story. Our solution was the rules you see below, which allows hovering close in under certain conditions. All complaints we received that initiated this were from people hovering less than 50 feet in front of another pilot who is flying. This brought up the fact that no one could hear comments on the flightline (people yelling landing, etc). All in all, it has worked out for the better and everyone has cooperated. We just asked for those to simply apply common sense and realize that their actions of flying close in do affect others.

"No hovering over the runway with fixed-wing aircraft while other pilots are present. All hovering to commence over the tall grass unless: (a) there is only one other pilot flying at a station and you have their consent (b) there are two other pilots aside from you practicing the same hovering maneuvers. In (a) and (b), hovering must be commenced from the runway centerline out and maximum separation of flying aircraft must occur. No individuals to be underneath a hovering aircraft."

Complete rules and a field diagram available at: http://www.sccmas.org/rules/rules.shtml

Michael
SCCMAS VP
www.sccmas.org

Well what do we have here
 

Check this out :

Scares the dickens out of

mehttp://www.cactusaviation.com/video/land.wvx

"illegal" hovering
 

You got to admit, its kinda funny :D
30 to 20 years ago it was just gliders that got in your way,
20 to 10 years ago many of you complained about these "darn 4 stroke engine flyers and those gassers"
10 to current years ago you wined about helicopters,

and now its 3-d plane pilots??
Can't we all just get along?
Try to Exercise common curtesy, take turns flying? treat each other with dignity and respect no matter what the other guy is flying?
Does it always have to be about "YOU"? It is amazing how far you can get in life if you would only make the effort to use a few words more often. like,
"Please", "thank you", and most importantly, "I am sorry".

Don't get me wrong, there are very rude people in ALL disciplines of flying, but SOME of you fixed wing guys think the rest of us "non fixed" flyers don't have a right to be there even if we are dues paying members of a club.
We all need to Learn to be more long-suffering, life is too short for this bickering,
Go fly, and just have fun, and if you really want to have a good day, next time you are at the field, go up to someone flying something diferent than what your flying and just say "hi, how's it going?" You just might make a new friend out of it :eek: Hey, it can't hurt to try. And it wont cost a thing.

My .02 :cool:

Classic- Flyer
 

Classic,
I agree with you 100%. I have been around and flying during every one of the eras you mentioned and you are quite right.

Dave