The new EVP
 

In another thread, I made the statement that I hoped that the new EVP fell on his face, and that the plug would be pulled on the PPP.

I was asked why I didn't follow the good example set by the losing candidate.

My answer is simple. I was not in favor of Mark Smith in the election, and I have not changed my opinion of him. I think that he (with the assistance of a couple of industry heavyweights) ramrodded the PPP down our throats, and I am not convinced that the conflict of interest issue was resolved. In other words, I personally feel that we were sold down the river with respect to the PPP.

I also think that there was too much internal pressure exerted to ensure that Smith won the election. There were still only about 10% of the members who voted, and I do know that the members of the Executive Committee were very active in pushing for their candidate of choice.

Mitchell, you asked why. Them's some of my reasons.

Bill, AMA 4720

RE: The new EVP
 

Thanks for your comments, Bill.

As I said in my earlier comment to you, I know that you haven't supported PPP from the gitgo, and that is a significant part of the reason you didn't want to see Mark Smith elected. My comment wasn't really related to why you didn't support Mr. Smith, but rather to your reaction to the congratulatory comments directed to him.

It's one thing to disagree with a candidate on one or more issues, and something totally different to hope that he "falls flat on his face" once elected and in office.

If that should happen, then AMA will be the worse for it, regardless of whether it's Mark Smith in the chair or anyone else. I think we share (or at least I hope we share) a desire to see AMA grow and be a strong advocate for it's members. I don't think it's in the best interests of AMA for anyone on the EC to fall flat on their face in terms if effectiveness in office, and that was the reason for my "sour grapes" response to your words.

RE: The new EVP
 

If I were to start glad-handing Smith at this point, I would be the biggest two-faced member here. I did not support him, mainly because I did not like what he did in regard to the PPP issue. I asked several questions of him, and got a canned reply. When I asked for clarification from him, I got a word for word repeat of his first answer, which was not an answer at all, but was merely talking points that were appearently cleared by Muncie.

I don't like what the man represents to me, and I cannot bring myself to offer congratulatory messages to him. I will oppose him at every opportunity. I will be fair, but I will also be consistent. There are entirely too many people with other motives who chose to support him. I was not, and am not one of these. Do I wish him harm? Of course not. Do I wish him success? Of course not. After all, it was he who chose to shove the PPP down our throats in spite of the wishes of the membership. We have now spent in excess of a quarter of a million dollars to pander to about one thousand PPP members who do not pay enough to make their own way, and you expect me to offer him my best wishes? Bah, Humbug!
Bill, AMA 4720

RE: The new EVP
 

Bill,
I can't agree with you more.
This is the guy who decided to "design" a program to go after the people who purchased the $50 Wal Mart specials, and have the rest of the membership pay for it.
The PPP is a disaster on so many levels, it would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.
Like Hoss or not, at least he speaks his mind and you know where he stands on issues, unlike Mr. Smith.
BRG,
Jon

RE: The new EVP
 

Bob
Sure it could be good for an organization for an official to fall,
the short version is when that official is pushing an agenda that would be harmful to the org it is good for him to fail. The difficulty is determining what is indeed bad for the org when there are oposing VIEWS/OPINIONS if something is bad for the org.

As for blind compliments of anyone that wins elections,
Hitler won an election, was it right for his opponants to jump on his bandwagon?
MarkS is not hitler, nor do I assume he is like hitler. Just a couple guys that won elections, yet might be bad for their org and should / should have falen on their face.



Stick-
I'd like to voice it like this:

I didnt like things MarkS did before the election.
I didnt like things MarkS did during the election.
I dont like things MarkS is forcasted to do post election.
Do I like MarkS? Dunno, never met the guy,
but we might have a lot in common outside the scope of AMA control.... we might hit it off chatting the important stuff like Bellcranks vs Torquerods. However, the very slight glimps of Mark as a person that was displayed with him repeatedly dodging the Conflict qusetions doesnt endear me to him as a First Impression.

RE: The new EVP
 

The AMA EC has an opportunity with PPP to demonstrate leadership. Good managers are not people who never make mistakes, they are people who quickly perceive and act to correct their mistakes. The only managers who make no mistakes are those that never do anything. Everyone who has honestly looked at the PPP knows it is and always will be a disaster. Good leaders would acknowledge that, cut the losses and move on. No shame in a mistake made with good intentions. The shame is in denying it for ever. Kennedy took responsibility for the Bay of Pigs in a few days, Clinton still has never had sexual relations with that woman!

RE: The new EVP
 

OK, then don't. But why go out of your way to tell the world that you want him to fall flat on his face? Will the AMA be the better for that? There's more going on in Muncie than just PPP. Do you really want an ineffective senior level leader? The EC overwhelmingly supported PPP. Do you want them ALL to fall flat on their faces?

My, wouldn't THAT be good for AMA.

That said, I still have to disagree with your comment above. For Pete's sake, Bill, the losing candidate made it a point to offer a gracious congratulations to the winner. Do you see Horrace as two-faced for having done so? I certainly don't and I don't suspect you do either.

I don't particularly have an issue with whether you can bring yourself to congratulate him or not. That's not the point. This thread is about why you (or anyone, for that matter) would choose to go out of their way to hope that he fails at his job. You seem to be letting your bitterness about an issue cloud your judgement about what is in the best interests of AMA.

You're missing the point that this thread really isn't about whether PPP is a good thing or a bad thing. It's not about that at all.

Please feel free to have the last word here. But remember that the thread is about your wishing him to fall flat on his face in his new position, and NOT about whether you support or don't support PPP. They are NOT the same thing. And by the way, it is the EC as a whole that you should blame for "shoving PPP down our throats", given that it was passed by an 11-2 (I believe) vote. So, again......do you want ALL 11 to be unsuccessful for the balance of their terms? I hope not. Not if you care about AMA, anyway.

RE: The new EVP
 

Whatever is said will be far from the last word on the matter, of that you can rest assured.

Why don't you read my entire post, rather than jumping on one issue and running with it?

Smith never did answer what was asked of him, and in fact, when the heat was turned up, ran away from the thread, and never did return. Whatever you think of Horrace, he was man enough to stay with it from beginning to end, and did not cut and run.

The issue of the PPP is important, and is a very large bone for the membership to swallow. This fault filled plan has already cost the membership a quarter of a million dollars. All this for the benefit of about one thousand members who can't vote, or have a voice in the organization that is supporting their hobby.

There is still the issue of conflict of interest, and the issue that those outside the AMA were allowed on the committee, and the wishes of the majority of the membership was ignored.

Disagree with what you wish. It's still a semi-free country. I still think that there is more to your being here than you admit. There is no way that someone with as little experience as you have in the hobby would have been as well versed with the operation of the Academy as you are. I trust you about as far as I trust Smith. I can spit further than that.

Bill, AMA 4720

RE: The new EVP
 

Bill, While is see your point the deal is done. The membership has spoken good, bad or indifferent. I for one have no use for MA due to the monies spent keeping it afloat. We all have our issues but in a nutshell the AMA is the only game in town, sad but true. Just go fly ,build or whatever and enjoy yourself. Mike

RE: The new EVP
 

Bob, I don't know how high up the ladder you ever got in sports, but were you ever "lifted" for a pinch hitter? If so, did you hope that guy hit a homer in your behalf, or did you silently wish for him to strike out looking like a drunk old lady?

RE: The new EVP
 

Sure hope the PPP debacle drains AMA fast enough to get in on the Fed. bail-out money. If Muncie plays it right, they could get MILLIONS!

Mr. Smith goes to Washington. Hope he doesn't take the private jet we bought.

RE: The new EVP
 

Well, you can get a bit irritated at the coach, but still prefer that the team win the game, Chuck.

RE: The new EVP
 

C'mon, Bob.:eek:

I guess I'm just a shallow minded heathen, then.

RE: The new EVP
 

Hey, you asked. ;)

It was a serious answer, though.

RE: The new EVP
 

Bill-

I am truly sympathetic with your thoughts...............but.... what's done is done. During an early phase of my career I spent countless hours on the mid-watch and wee hours of the morning chasing rainbows espied by marketeers that assured those of us assembled as a 'proposal team' (aka, low- and mid-level managers in a systems engineering/physical and computational sciences contracting firm) had a 90+% chance of winning the deal he has been nurturing. IOW, I have developed an ingrained bias against salesmen. I automatically divide their assessment of a proposed program's success potential by a factor of at least ten. That divisor was much larger when the salesman had nil experience with the specific market audience................that is to acknowledge model airplanes have little in common with with cell phones.
Nonetheless, the salesman, as AMA EVP, doesn't necessarily operate in a vacuum. The position is new, and the degree of autonomy granted to him will be determined by the makeup of the EC as a whole. There are a few, perhaps even a majority now, that seem to have the capability to run AMA effectively, and not just succumb to the allure of the wunderkind, if they can keep their eyes and minds open. Hang in there for a while, and see what direction things take.

Abel

RE: The new EVP
 

I have seen coaches replaced, and the team gets better:eek:;):D

RE: The new EVP
 

Expect Mark S to push for increased PPP spending to make "his baby" a success.......it's human nature.

RE: The new EVP
 

I am not to good with words but, I am going to add my 2pennys woth, been following the PPP feassco, and these threads for the last 18 months or so. I/we have small club and about 4 month ago at our meeting I ask the guestion has any one been reading any of the info in these threads, and how there dues were going to be spent. so I tryed to give a short summery, then handed out a list of the threads. At the last meeting (nov) I ask how meany had looked in to things and this new EVP thing and if they voted. well we made the avrage 10%. But the most intersting thing was more than half felt it was a done deal befor the vote, as the EC had there minds made up. I might add our 10% all voted for Horrace.

So I am with Stick , there is alot of poop in the wood pile and I would not trust the lot.

Bob T
AMA 13377

RE: The new EVP
 

Bob,
"The EC overwhelmingly supported PPP."
And the membership overwhelmingly did NOT support PPP, but we got it (in every sence of the word) in spite of what the membership
wanted.
I figure that in another 6 months or so they'll declare it a sucess and let it fade away.
Jon

RE: The new EVP
 

What is the basis for this remark? I do not recall there being any polling of the membership or any other means by which it could be discerned how many current members supported, or did not support, the PPP. So I am curious, do you have actual numbers to back this up or is it merely your impression or opinion?

RE: The new EVP
 

Jon,

On what do you base your comment that the membership overwhelmingly did not want PPP?

RE: The new EVP
 

You shouldn't get in the sunlight without wearing some really dark shades. this has been discussed here at great length. do a little search.

RE: The new EVP
 

There was a poll sent out to leader members [and life members if I am not mistaken], but nothing to the rank and file members that I know of.

RE: The new EVP
 

Heh... the jury may be out on THAT, too!

Another old fogie,
Dave Olson

RE: The new EVP
 

An AMA PPP poll would be nice right about now. Very doubtful the AMA wants to know what AMA members really think, why let a little poll get in the way of "success."

And how about a nice feature article in MA with objective and honest detailed reporting on the Marketing Committee and birth of the PPP.

RE: The new EVP
 

Excellent idea! They should run a honestly written history of the PPP and account for the money spent, bring us up to date on how it's doing and discuss the project's targets or goals, maybe even some deadlines. Opinion polls can be conducted on any subject at the website, a well written article could inspire a good amount of feedback from the membership.

RE: The new EVP
 

I think a poll of the entire membership is a great idea. As is the magazine article.

What I'd really like to see, though, is what the goals were for PPP for the first 12 months......I'm assuming such goals exist......if they don't then somone has really missed the boat. And for 24 months as well.

Without clearly defined goals, it's all too easy for projects to limp along far longer than they should before they are either revamped or eliminated. Based on comments earlier this year from AMA President Mathewson it appears that PPP results are lagging behind expectations...but what were those expectations? If that remains the case at year end, then one of two things should happen, IMO. Either the program should be dropped, or it should be altered to perform better. If the latter, I would strongly disagree with any more expenditures WITHOUT some clearly defined goals for the next 12 months. Dave has said that the program should be self-supporting, and I agree. Like most start-ups, though, it's not going to be self supporting right out of the box.

If it's not self supporting at 24 months, or lacking strong indications that it's moving that way then it shoud become part of history.

I'm willing to invest another $1.50 of my dues to see if it can be made to work......but only under the above conditions.

RE: The new EVP
 

Bob, nice to hear your response. I don't begrudge any organization for attempting to make something positive happen, but in a nutshell, as you know, the argument surrounding the PPP regards the contention that the PPP, as it exists, was not created from a single point of need and logic by the AMA, and therefore goals and projections have no actual ascernable basis in the real world - because the goals could literally be anything.

In other words, if what I've read is true, the genesis and flow of the PPP occurred backwards. For all intents and purpose it started with the Marketing Committee determining how much money it would cost to print the AMA logo on airplane boxes - determining which airplanes would get the designation worked backwards to the insurance company, which worked further backwards in determining the amount of money in staff, printed PPP material, and staff involvement requiring an official program - and then at the other end, where it should have started - from a point of need by the AMA, a group of people evidently developed a program to dovetail into what the Marketing Committee proposed. And I'll also say the AMA probably rationalized putting the AMA logo on all those boxes was advertising for the AMA.

Some people would like to know where the reported $200,000.00 was spent. How much for the packaging? Putting a logo on a box would be a great opportunity for the manufacturers to "offset" their packaging expenditures - it would be interesting to see how some boxes changed in a before/after AMA logo. And of course where all the money went is more important than the boxes.

And where did the money come from? Were other programs shortchanged?

I was probably one of the few here that at first was optimistic about the PPP, but not at nearly a quarter of a million dollars. I'm afraid in retrospect it will be a failed program - because it wasn't thought through with the primary needs of the AMA.

RE: The new EVP
 

Bob,
I should have chosen my words more carefully.
Obviously, the vast majority of AMA members, 90%+, as evidenced by the percentage of AMA members who don't vote, could care less about the AMA and it's officers or programs, and therefore, my statement is in error.
However, I do remember getting an e-mail about the proposed PF program, because I wrote a two page reply expressing my opposition based on tiered dues and the AMA using its limited resources going after the Wal-Mart crowd instead of supporting the members of the AMA in the challenges that lay ahead, namely the FEDS, fields, etc.
I remember reading that the majority of responses received by the AMA were against the program; I guess I could look up where I read it but at this point it doesn't matter, now that Smith, et al, has put the program in place.
Anyway, sorry for the unfortunate choice of words, I guess I need to proof read a little better.
BRG,
Jon

RE: The new EVP
 

I wasn't trying to nitpick between "all", "Life", or "leader" members. Just asking in general where the information came from. I'm heard that there was an email poll conducted, but I have yet to hear where the information came from that the response was overwhelmingly against formation of PPP. Actually, I would appreciate it if you could find where you read the information. So far the only thing I've been able to get is that someone heard it from someone who heard it from someone who is supposed to know. I'm not saying that your information isn't accurate, to the contrary, I really have no way of knowing at this point. I'd just like to figure out where it came from to know if it's real or just something that someone posted at some point that has been repeated enough times that it's now accepted as factual.

Again, nothing to be sorry for, as I wasn't trying to parse your words to that point. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

RE: The new EVP
 

I think that AMA leadership has been remiss in not fully publicizing just what those goals are/were. Again, I'm assuming that some specific goals existed. I think there are some here that believe I'm a dyed in wool PPP supporter because I supported M. Smith for EVP.....not true. I think that the program deserves/deserved a chance to prove itself.

That's the first time I've heard it described that way. Where did that come from?

I think a full accounting of PPP expenditures is owed to the membership. For that matter, a full and understandable accounting of all expenditures. For example, we don't really know the full cost of MA because the way the expenses and revenue are reported doesn't include staff members assigned to the magazine. I'm not bashing the magazine, in fact I think it does a pretty good job. But the accounting practices aren't up to standard, IMO.

Again, we don't really know, I don't believe, because of poor accounting practices. Without knowing the annual budget for each program, and a full year end accounting showing all expenditures and revenue associated with the program compared to budget it's impossible to tell. Perhaps no program was shortchanged, and the additional funds were pulled from Academy investments. We just don't know. I'm not indicating that I think anything is being deliberately hidden, it's just that with the current accounting structure some things just can't be pulled out the way they should be. (I'm basing that on the year end statements, and nothing else. I've read through them for fiscal 2006 and 2007 and they leave much to be improved, IMO. In one of my past lives I was responsible for detailed monthly analysis of actual expenditures vs budget, and nothing frustrated me more than not being easily able to pull out the numbers I needed to easily explain overs/unders.)

The key is to have a budget that people are accountable for holding to, and periodic comparisons to that budget to see how things are going, and address problems that come to the surface because of the comparisons.

Dave Mathewson has indicated that there is a new controller on board at AMA, and that one of the things he is going to do is to improve accounting practices. I hope that happens.

RE: The new EVP
 

I didn't think this was another PPP gripe thread, but since it is, I'll add my comments.

I would say that the majority of AMA members don't really care one way or the other about the PPP. It's only on these RC forums that I see from the vocal dozen or so that has a beef with it. Some may not like it, but they are still doing their best to help support it and the AMA. Seems like that's the right approach to take in my mind.

Frank

RE: The new EVP
 

I didn't either, but after about 2 messages that's what it became. And my comments below really won't become a "gripe" until after the beginning of the year, and if no such information is forthcoming from AMA. As I said in an earlier message, I'm willing to donate another $1.50 of my dues to the program if some clearly defined goals and definition of "success" are laid out.

I agree with your last comment. However, as I've indicated, I think that the AMA leadership owes information and plans about PPP to the membership if they expect to maintain some of that support. IMO the most important thing is a set of goals. I'd like to see them clearly define what PPP "success" means to them in terms of cost, membership headcount, revenue, etc. If those things aren't defined then any program, not just PPP, will tend to roll along with no real oversight or improvement. That's my $.02, anyway. If the AMA leadership has that definition they should let the members know what it is. If they don't have it, then shame on them.

RE: The new EVP
 

Regarding a "poll" to determine AMA members feelings about PPP, the following was sent (I presume to all members for whom AMA had an Email address on file):

Note that the two questions posed to members addressed just one concern, and only one: How many Open members would AMA lose to the proposed bargain basement tier?

"Views of the membership" be damned, it's always been about the money, period. Many members did express their views in reply emails, to the chagrin of Ms Hager. Only the overwhelmingly negative replies to the specific questions were of any interest to the people at AMA HQ hawking the program internally to the EC, and were interpreted as the go-ahead from the membership at large. AMA members, your Nay 'votes' were counted as a resounding 'Aye' for PPP.

Abel

RE: The new EVP
 

Abel
Did you tell Joyce that Kid Epoxy was going to drop from open to PPP? ;)



. . .


What, like offer free tee shirts to PPP that renew,
to buy "success" with more $ from Opens?

You guys forget, I already got that letter decaring PPP a success.
When you dont have goals or conditions to meet, success is easy
... even easier when you can spend other peoples money to make it a success.




Oh, and the EC didnt overwhelmingly endorse the PPP.
Hoss got that back when he could force unanimous votes,
but it looks like Mark didnt play well with others enough to get unanimous EC Vote for PPP.
Perhaps Mark could ask Hoss to swing by Muncie to whip the EC into FULLY backing PPP next time. ;)





How much more money can Mark dump into PPP before he falls on his face?

RE: The new EVP
 

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I'm gonna take Frank's advice and be just like the vast majority who don't care about any of this stuff. Just go out there, have fun and be a good little member.

RE: The new EVP
 

Not directed at CP.

And that's what it is all about; having fun. At the end of the day, that is the reason we are in this hobby to begin with. To have fun and enjoy building, flying, and sharing those experiences with others. No reason to get all upset about something we have no control over. Enjoy the hobby when you can. Life is too short not to.

Frank

RE: The new EVP
 

(Not directed at either CP or Muroc1)

Enjoy your hobby, just don't expect me to subsidize your hobby for you. It ain't my place to front you the money. If you want to play, you ought to pay.

Bill, AMA 4720

RE: The new EVP
 

Frank-
a) There are a quarter million reasons to get upset.
This is not some $5k increase to the show team budget or $50k for a pair of employees to go school to school giving demos... when did throwing away a quarter million dollars become unworthy of concern? I suggest Muncie takes up the KEP (KidEpoxy Program) that spends a quarter million dollars on subidizing KE with model aviation materials at the expense of all other AMA members. Its just a $1.50, why should you guys care thet it all goes to me.... like you would even notice a buck fifty missing.... its all about having a good time flying toys, so whynot just give KE the $250k and you guys keep quiet about it and fly.

b) No control?
Remember back in the day when AMA wasnt out of control of the members.... ahhh, good times.
Is there a reason the members have lost control of the member organiztion? I guess thats why the way of the future is to have non-voting members, since voting or not dont help in the out of control organization. What about the JoycePoll, that there is direct member input... not if members wanted to start divisive membership tiers but solely asking if they would join that new tier. I guess I see how they can say the poll was overwelmingly possitive if "negative reposnse" was that the Open would drop down while "positive response" was that the Open member wouldnt: Wanting or Hating the tier to be created must be irrelevant stray invalid data.

RE: The new EVP
 

Based on what he's said, I believe that the current AMA president agrees with you, given that he's on record as stating that PPP should become self-supporting.

The way I see it, I "fronted" PPP about $1.50 last year, and will be glad to fork over another $1.50 for 2009 if there are some firm goals in place and plans to meet those goals. Lacking that, I don't want to "front" PPP any more than do you.

After all, it's gotta be costing me at least enough fuel for one or two 10 minute flights a year. ;)