Oberst

I've seen some really nice ARF aircraft in my time. But that was after a whole lot of work was put into them. JMHO if a guy strips his warbird, recovers it and puts some good hardware and fancy scale stuff on it, then why not? I'm restoring and modifying my Great Planes Fokker, it is from my experience that bashing up a ARF right from the bare bones can be harder than building a kit.

Now I might be peeved if I saw a guy win with a "As is" ARF. But it might be because I was jealous, can't say for sure. If it gets the "Peoples Vote" then what do they know? They don't really know the difference between a ARF and a Kit like we do. It's just one of those things in life that remind me that life isn't fair.


Yep, I believe a new breed of builder is moving in, and that's the people who are the ARF Bashers. [8D]


Oh yes, I have to keep away from any warbird events where Lou has his planes, because I'll risk loosing! [:@]


Pete

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

Thanks guys , like I said in the very begining , its a shame to draw lines , I have total respect for the hobby , so I know what it takes to build a Top Gun model , met Dave Platt when he introduced his Zero Kit at the Valley Fordge Signal Seekers in the 80ties . I was a kid in college and building the Top Flight Red Box P40 . Funny thing was I was bashing that to stand off scale so being somewhat anal must have just been genetics with me lol .
When i say "its a shame to draw lines " I dont mean reward a guy with an arf equal to a scratch built plane ect , all I am saying is as stated by so many in this very long post , keep the rules easy to understand , focus on the goals of the events ect .
For the record the guys that know me on this site and the other one know I am open to all rc planes but love warbirds . I have to tell you I have been flying glow the last 5 years when I came back to the hobby , now I am trying large scale eletric and will dabble more in gas if I start going 80" plus .
My point is you would not believe how fun some of the new technoligy can be if you simply try it . Personally i dont care what a guy shows up with , i want to see how it flys . We all know if a plane is a dog in the hands of a good pilot , we run for the hills lol . The new EPO 55" warbirds have an incredible following because they fly like kites , so a relative newbe that knows basic stick control can easily fly one of these warbirds . Imagine that -they break the old time golden rule "dont fly that mustang Timmy , put it away until you have some real experience with some heavy low wing planes "
If you want to see this hobby perpetuate , you should see what happens when the guys that only fly foamys , many of them move up into the fuel forums , and or the larger eletric forums and start to build , yes build !!!!
lastly as far as what planes are made of because we will argue in RCU about foam vs wood , wood vs imported wood , hand grown trees vs arf trees ect thers is a build online of a Russian WW2 Fighter out of Blue Insulation foam , its nothing short of master modeling at its absolute best . If I has the link I would post it , but it will open your imagintaion about what can be done in this hobby by just opening your mind .

daveopam

My Feedback: (9)

Guys, this is the last warning to keep this thread off of a personal level. If you don't like someone ignore them and move on. Justifing a wrong because you feel wronged is not an excuse.
This is a discussion about ARF's winning and competing in scale events. All other references will be deleted.

Thank you, David

yard-dart

My Feedback: (35)

POPCORN!!!!! COME GET YOUR POPCORN!!!!! SIR, WOULD YOU LIKE A PROGRAM?

yard-dart

My Feedback: (35)

I agree, this is getting a bit rediculous.

GerKonig

Nonsense, no judging there I am sure! Every year for a very long time I attend 3 warbirs meets in my area Quakertown, Imalayastown and Warbirds over Delaware. In all of these places: Quakertown, Imalayastown, and the park in Delaware, you have P-51 (top flite Arfs), my Great Planes Curtiss Hawk (ARF), rubbing wingtips with kit built and scratch built and other ARFs.

At noontime (very annoying) they shlepp alll the models to the center of the field, for a picture, and people vote on the one they like the most. ALL kids vote, some grownups also vote. I do not like it because you cannot fly during the period. Anyway, some model gets the most votes, end of the story.

Most of the votes belong to pople that have no clue what a "control-horn backing plate" is, to begin with. These are NOT scale contests, they are called "warbird meets" and normally they get the name from the place; Warbirds over Imalayastown" Warbirds over Quackertown" etc... Since the "judges" range in ages from about 5 to ??? and most have no clue, any plane can be voted the "winner" (actually if you have "Snoopy" or "Goofy" as a pilot, your chances improve among the younger crowd:-)

So, the main thing to "get" here is that it is not a scale contest. Period

Sincerely:

Gerry
"I have never met a plane I do not like"

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Everyone of these threads ends up like this. We all defend our little part of the hobby and fail to see the big picture. Our scale hobby has three distinct parts fly-ins (which is what this thread was initially about), the local scale meet competitor, and the pro’s.

Fly-ins are always (almost always) popular choice. In this case the opinion of most people that pay to get in to watch the models are very important to the club putting the fly-in on because it helps them to appeal to the people that carred enough to vote. When I CD fly-ins I would layout all the votes then categorize all the votes in terms of WWI, Golden Age, WWII, jet, and civil. This was then used to advertize for next year. In my area WWII was the focus.

Local scale meets I classify as meets that I can take a everyday flyer and finish in the top three. The theory which I have proved time and time again is beautiful scale renditions do not get flown a lot, so I can score 5-10 points higher then them because I know my everyday flyer. That means if my everyday flyer scores 10points low in static I should be able to make that up in flight scores. This type of meet is where I think ARF entries are beneficial. Exposing ARF builders to other facets of the hobby, ideas, and pushing others. The club hosting has a higher entry and better chance for financial success, which translates into “we will do it again next year.”
My son and I do mock combat and have found ARF’s to be Heavy, and generally less maneuverable, but much easier to accept damage, maintain.

The pro’s are the pros! Judges are usually nationally accredited and if an ARF or everyday flyer was entered it would get the credit it deserves.

I am in a section of our country were the local scale meet was killed by the IMAA. I miss them but more importantly it is a microcosm of the rest of the country. We all need to realize that it does not work if we remove any part of the equation, so we all need each other.

Some people call me wishy washy, maybe I am or maybe not
Joe

RamItOn

I've had the same experience with kit-builders at local club meets: poorly built plane, know-it-all owner. I don't think ARF guys should be singled out.

When I started, all I wanted to do was fly. After two seasons of pounding my ARFs into the dirt, I began to modify. From modification to wholesale airframe changes. Then last year I scratch-built a powered glider and an EDF jet. Now I'm scratch building a Super Chipmunk from Carl Goldberg plans. Certainly not where I thought I'd be when I started 5 or 6 years ago. I imagine I am not alone in this progression. And if someone never progresses past assembling ARFs, who cares? The hobby is more accessible now than at any time in the past, yet people still find reasons to complain.

Back to the topic: shouldn't some blame be placed on the judges? If it's a scale event and non-scale attachments are noted, shouldn't that net a low score, and someone who took more care in building a true scale aircraft without all of the accouterment score higher? I don't know how these contests work, just asking a question.

modelflyer5

I have promoted war bird events for my local clubs.

We always had more than one class of awards.

Pilots choice!! Every year it seamed like most pilots voted for themselves.

Peoples choice!! Usually the biggest, newest plane of the bunch would win.

Best WWII Voted on by three judges who were some of the most experienced of the club. Each choosing there top three. Points were first being 3 points, Second being 2 points, and third being 1 point. then the points were added up for the winner.

Best WWI same as above.

Best Electric!! lSame as above.

Most events can't afford all of these awards, but the more divisions you have means the more that come. Most clubs are looking for revenue from these events.

The article in the magazine didn't show every plane at the event. It is hard to tell exactly what was there. You have to be careful of how to judge the winner. This looked like a charity event where having fun was more important than accuracy.

It sucks to see this hobby be split like this over what is better. We are all a bunch of guys/ girls that love to fly. I love to see what everyone does to make there aircraft different from the rest. Having five of the same ARFs is the same as having 5 stick planes built exactly the same way. I always look for the scheme that I have not seen before. I am bashing a Zero that is going to be painted like one that searved over Korea in 1945. It has a very bright paint job (Easy to see) that I think looks very cool.

I have a friend that has a Hellcat that has gone through three stages of paint. This Ziroli was first painted and then flown. After the kinks were worked out then it was weathered in two stages. Each stage seemed to take away from the plane. I like how it turned out, but it is not what I would have done. He has taken this to various events and won with it. It seems that my peers have a different opinion than I do. And I am fine with that.

Thats why it is good to have multiple judges. They all look for different things and they all have different tastes. Judging is as much politcal as it is guessing.

I love this hobby and I absolutely love to go to events to see what I haven't seen before. All of you keep doing what you do best because that is what makes this hobby so great. The wide variety of aircraft levels and taste keeps it interesting.

Tarasdad

If the rules allow ARF's then I have no problem with an ARF winning. I've seen some great work done with ARF aircraft, modded and superdetailed so that you'd never know they were an ARF. I've also seen scratch built aircraft that would make the cheapest foamie ARF look like a champion. Yeah, I do prefer the scratch built work of love, the one that makes you stare in awe at the workmanship. All things being equal that's the one I'd like to see win as well. Some day I hope that I can try my hand at such a work of art, but realistically speaking my odds are better with a high-quality ARF. I know what my hands are capable of, and Mr. Top Gun ain't it!

ram3500-RCU

My Feedback: (221)

Modelflyer5, I enjoyed your post and hands-on insight. On judging though, you said "Judging is as much political as it is guessing." while this is definitely the case all too often, and much more so at the local warbird or fly-in events where documentation is often not an issue or even required.These are more "beauty" contests than anything else. Nothing wrong with that. I love beauty contests. However, at real scale events, this is exactly what I would hope they would avoid. At these events, what the judges are expected to do is determine how close the modeler has come to the documentation he has provided. Therefore, documentation is, as I am finding out, a very important component in competition. They hit this very hard at seminars on competition. It is at these type contests that the ARF will have the hardest time. But, as we loose the old time builders and building gets lest popular, I can see a time maybe ten years down the road when the ARF entries will out number the builds. Be then, I'm sure they will be a thing to behold. Look at how far they have come in just the last 15 years.

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

MODEL:
A small object, usually BUILT to SCALE, that represents in DETAIL another, an often LARGER object WORTHY of imitation.

Modeler: A person that BUILDS to SCALE the smaller object, WORTHY of imitation, in DETAIL.

When you buy an ARF, you stop "MODELING" and start..........."ASSEMBLING".

There is room in "Model Aviation" for both forms of "Model Aircraft", but unless
we turn the world on its head "The Modeler" is still a big, huge, and monsterous CUT ABOVE the..... "Assembler".

I see the "Assemblers" wanting to have the same "Model Aviation Status" and respect as " The Modelers".

As A "Modeler" I have observed this trend by the "Assemblers" to claim a parity that simply does not exist.

You might as well be comparing childrens finger paintings to an old world artist.

lazy eight

My Feedback: (389)

modelflyer5

Ram,

Your preaching to the quire. I have been to one Scale Masters Qualifier. They took pride in there judging. Yes, documentation is pretty important to the static scores. Flight has more imortance. I was talking about your local run of the mill War bird event.

I want to bash an ARF for the upcoming Scale Masters Qualifier where I will be competing against other ARFs. I don't have the skills yet to build a kit. I am learning and wish to do it some day.

The event in question, I don't think was anymore than an event for everyone to enjoy. I don't understand how anyone would think differently. The only thing that I am mad about, is that many other larger events could use the attention of the magazine. I understand the veterans angle and I know that that is probably why it made the magazine. I just would like to see more events of a local nature.

prontopac

Many years ago, a friend got me interested in RC aircraft.  With his encouragement, I built a C.G. Cub as my 1st trainer, and a SIG Kobra <meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"/>equipped with a tuned pipeas my 1st fast plane.  Later I built a Balsa USA bi-plane that came out really well and flew like sweet cream.  I never thought of myself as a good builder, average at best, or flyer, but my planes were sound.  The flew and preformed, and landed to the point were it was just understood that once completed and covered they would just fly.  

daleflysrc

My Feedback: (26)

Get use to it !! Its a no build, buy & fly world !! With no one building like they use to & even those who have recently been caught at Top Gun with a Bird that they had not built, Arfs are on the rise !! Even the U.S. Scale Masters is seeing more & more ARFs and why not !! You get no more points when lets say you want to compete in Fun Scale for scratching an airplane in Scale Masters competetion. All you can say is Thanks China & the ugly or should I say LAZY Americans !!

ram3500-RCU

My Feedback: (221)

Good points. I know most of us here are familiar with the politics and principles of competition. I was speaking more to those who may be "passing though" who may be considering giving it a whirl. Wouldn't want to discourage guys before they even get started.

yard-dart

My Feedback: (35)

I'll say it again, it all goes back to "time". Most everyone these days want instant gratification. I bet there's a lot of guys out there that would love to build a nice big 1/3 scale Cub, or a big 1/4 scale Mustang, but their busy lives simply won't allow it. On the other hand, there's the guy who'll work all day, get home and spend a few hours with the wife and kids, and once everyone's asleep he'll head out to the workshop and stay till around midnight. He'll do this nearly every day until the plane's built. That, my friend, is a builder.

I couldn't agree more with Airkiller's post. There is a huge difference between builders and assemblers. Until a man has built a kit, he really has no business turning his nose up at any person, or their plane, until they've attempted a build. On the other hand, the ARF assembler has just as much right to the sky, and deserves the same amount of human respect as the builder, unless of course the ARF guy is running around with an attitude calling people names. The same thing applies to the builder.

Then there's the kit basher. Hat's off to you fellas, bucause Iknow it's a lot of work.

I think we all get the message of what this thread is about, I'm just wondering how many more pages it's gonna take up?

scale only 4 me

My Feedback: (158)

You forgot to mention the "Real Bulders",, the ones that draw and build from their own plans,,, Those kits and ARF have to be designed by someone

My first scratch build was a hand launch stick glider when I was 12,, that was a long time ago

yard-dart

My Feedback: (35)

No offense, but those who cut out their own kit from a set of plans, have way too much free time on their hands, and lots of patience. I do admire those people. I'm doing good putting together a laser cut kit.

ram3500-RCU

My Feedback: (221)

Not to mention a much better equipped shop than I have.

RACJ

I don't consider anyone a scratch builder unless he grows his own Balsa trees,cuts them down hisself,planes his own boards and whittles his own sticks before he starts to build. Oh also, makes his own paper for plans and mashes berries for his dyes and paints like the Indians.Where does this elitist foolishness end guys

jmohn

ARFs are how many people get started in RC and should be included if we want to keep newer folks interested in competition. The line between ARF and not is getting more blurred everyday too. You can take an ESM or KMP to a competition and it's an ARF, but a Comp ARF Corsair (it's in the name) or jet (take your pick here as most are very much ARFs) and they are not considered ARFs?

Just allow them to compete in the classes with other "ARF types" to help keep those people interested in competing.

I still don't see any issues with them since many of the "Top Gun" planes are built by someone else (the builder is paid) and owned and flown by different people anyway. Unless its a team plane, they didn't build them so why does it matter where it was built.

There are some very skilled builders out there that can take a box of sticks and turn it into an awsome airplane. That sould definately be recognized in the competition some how.

I can tell you from some of the competitions I have been to that there are many times that an ARF (KMP or ESM) would have easily won because some of the "scratch built" stuff was ugly [:'(]


Jeff

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

YESSS.......Those people are the modeling Gods that dwell in the world called .... "Designer scale".

These folks are at the very top of the Model Aviation pyramid.
The true modeling GODS...

We have all heard names of some these modeling Gods:

Ziriloi........Bates.......... Platte.......Smith........Wolf.......Violett..etc. ... etc.... etc.

The next step Down from the Modeling God is: The "Scratch Builder"....
"The modeler who builds an aircraft from scratch from what the GODS have bestowed on us mere mortal model builders as ..."PLANS".

Then there is the" kit builder".The mere mortal model builder that with time will gain the knowledge needed to become the.... "Scratch builder" and possibly if motivated enough....... become a modeling GOD.

The "Modified ARF" A hugh step above the ARF.
What scratch builders ,kit builders, a some gods fly but only after extensive improvements as they are unwilling to lower their standards to.. The ARF

The Arf.... What the kit builders, scratch builders and even some gods lower themselves to buy and fly...
when they have more way money than time.

They will with great shame admit to falling from grace, just to keep their fingers nimble while they continue to build...... Masterpieces.

The ARF modeler is here to stay.....hopefully.....with great patience and mentoring
they will not remain at what is........the bottom.

tenacious101010

My Feedback: (97)

dont think ARFs should compete against kit or scratch built aircraft. Just my opinion. I have built several large scale kits, most of them modified to be much more scale. My son and I competed at a Scale masters Qualifier a few months ago. We entered team scale with a TF Giant P-47. I added an incredible amount of details, rivets, screws, panel lines, working gear doors, 2 part main doors, different canopy, cockpit custom detailing and I can tell you, I still got a very low score. I really think that based on the other aircraft, I deserved that score because The shape of the TF kit was not accurate, it was a sport scale plane dressed as a scale plane. Now for the next event, my son has been invited to fly at Top Gun this year. We plan on entering team scale with a highly modified American Eagle Kit. I consider this plane to be super scale if there is such a thing. I have done hours of research, driven to Sun and fun, Fantasy of Flight and to the hanger of the owner of the full scale aircraft I am modeling twice. I have invested a great deal of time and money and soul into this project for myself. I am doing it to please myself. I would expect to be fairly judged and not compared to an ARF in judging. I have never built a plane for competition before so if I don’t score well against other built planes, I wont be surprised and wont be disappointed. Now on the other hand, my work is compared to an ARF and does bad, I would be greatly disappointed and would only bother building a plane for my own enjoyment, not to enter into competition. The projext I am working on is based on a composite fuselage purchased from American Eagle, the rest of the project is built from plans. It would be a lot more work to build the fuselage from wood from plans but I decided this was a better route. So I will be competing against planes built from all wood, purchased composite fuselages with different levels of modifications, who is to say where the line is drawn on the amount of work or prefabricated parts go into a project. Altho my plane has a composite fuselage that was purchased, it will look nothing like the kit built aircraft, it will be covered in aluminum sheeting. I hope at least I score well in the area of finish since its real aluminum and not paint or flite metal. Who knopws, no matter what, I am building my plane to please myself. If it scores well, great, if not, oh well....

Heres a build thread on the plane in case anyones interested.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_89...tm.htm#8903372