You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
01-05-2011, 02:17 PM
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RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
Just about every jet out there is using a composite fuze and most prop warbirds too. Yellow, Byron, Comp ARF, etc. are all using composite fuzes with composite or built up wings. Many of the ARFs like KMP, ESM, CMP are too. The difference is making a wing, paiting and installing some of the servo trays. So if I take CMP ARF and repaint and make cosmetic changes is that enough to be allowed into non-ARF classes as these others are?
I just don't like how they are classified. How about we use:
- from plans and sticks
- from composite materials
- built by others
Again..some of the big winners at many competitions are built by others (paid builders), painted by others, and flown by someone else too (owner). Why not use something like they do in dog shows.
- built and flown by owner (bred and shown by owner)
- built buy owner and flown by other (bred by owner)
- built and flown by other (co-owner)
That way you know how much effort some guy has in the plane (pride) and can mark off the guys that didn't take the effort on another plane and paid someone to do it for them. There might be some scale that rewards builders and deducts for non-builders.
Just some thoughts....
Jeff
I just don't like how they are classified. How about we use:
- from plans and sticks
- from composite materials
- built by others
Again..some of the big winners at many competitions are built by others (paid builders), painted by others, and flown by someone else too (owner). Why not use something like they do in dog shows.
- built and flown by owner (bred and shown by owner)
- built buy owner and flown by other (bred by owner)
- built and flown by other (co-owner)
That way you know how much effort some guy has in the plane (pride) and can mark off the guys that didn't take the effort on another plane and paid someone to do it for them. There might be some scale that rewards builders and deducts for non-builders.
Just some thoughts....
Jeff
01-05-2011, 02:39 PM
#302
RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
I see the point you're making, but these 'modified ARFs will still have go through the same judging criteria as all the other scale entries. That includes the outlines, airfoil, proportions, as well as surface detail. Here is where the ARF may have a hard time unless it is being judged against other ARFs. ARF manufacturers, it would seem, would be more concerned about ease of manufacture, and fly-ability (in that order) than scale integrity, and detail. Nothing surprising here. They need to sell flyable airplanes. To compete head to head with aircraft built by craftsmen dedicated to scale, would be futile, again, if judging knows what they are looking at.
01-05-2011, 02:51 PM
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RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
Well said and most judges can tell a well built plane over an "off the shelf" ARF.
Some of the ARFs can be made into some pretty nice looking and flying planes. I have a few, but they are still nothing close to some of the planes that regularly win at scale events. I may spend a 100 hours on my ARF detailing and changes, but the other guys are spending 1000s of hours or more. They have detail that sometimes leaves my mouth wide open.
I end up saying: "wow how did you do that"
What we need are some classes on building and finishing techniques. Maybe someone will offer one on-line of something so we can all watch. Until then this site and others are the best way to share ideas and techniques.
I have learned a ton from people here.
Thanks!
Jeff
Some of the ARFs can be made into some pretty nice looking and flying planes. I have a few, but they are still nothing close to some of the planes that regularly win at scale events. I may spend a 100 hours on my ARF detailing and changes, but the other guys are spending 1000s of hours or more. They have detail that sometimes leaves my mouth wide open.
I end up saying: "wow how did you do that"
What we need are some classes on building and finishing techniques. Maybe someone will offer one on-line of something so we can all watch. Until then this site and others are the best way to share ideas and techniques.
I have learned a ton from people here.
Thanks!
Jeff
01-05-2011, 03:14 PM
#304
RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
I feel the same way. I am simply amazed at what some our fellow modelers can do.
Here is a thread that I started for just that very exchange of ideas you describe. It is tailored to modeling the active war bird, but the techniques found within cross over to many type builds. Hope you enjoy it, if you haven't already. I have even tried to index some of what is inside. You will see all types including the ARF, full build, composites, and even scratch builds detailed and weathered.
www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9431135/tm.htm
Here is a thread that I started for just that very exchange of ideas you describe. It is tailored to modeling the active war bird, but the techniques found within cross over to many type builds. Hope you enjoy it, if you haven't already. I have even tried to index some of what is inside. You will see all types including the ARF, full build, composites, and even scratch builds detailed and weathered.
www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9431135/tm.htm
01-05-2011, 03:29 PM
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RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
Ram,
Thanks! I have been watching that one since day one and acutally started a binder with all the tips printed out so I can look back at them later. I have seen some good platic model technique books on weathering and stuff, but nothing for RC planes. Where I need help is figuring out the stuff I haven't done like canopy rails, hidden control mechanisms, lights, and small detail stuff like hatches that look real and stuff like that.
Maybe someone will put one together and sell some to us
Jeff
Thanks! I have been watching that one since day one and acutally started a binder with all the tips printed out so I can look back at them later. I have seen some good platic model technique books on weathering and stuff, but nothing for RC planes. Where I need help is figuring out the stuff I haven't done like canopy rails, hidden control mechanisms, lights, and small detail stuff like hatches that look real and stuff like that.
Maybe someone will put one together and sell some to us
Jeff
01-05-2011, 04:00 PM
#306
RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
ORIGINAL: jmohn
Ram,
Thanks! I have been watching that one since day one and acutally started a binder with all the tips printed out so I can look back at them later. I have seen some good platic model technique books on weathering and stuff, but nothing for RC planes. Where I need help is figuring out the stuff I haven't done like canopy rails, hidden control mechanisms, lights, and small detail stuff like hatches that look real and stuff like that.
Maybe someone will put one together and sell some to us
Jeff
Ram,
Thanks! I have been watching that one since day one and acutally started a binder with all the tips printed out so I can look back at them later. I have seen some good platic model technique books on weathering and stuff, but nothing for RC planes. Where I need help is figuring out the stuff I haven't done like canopy rails, hidden control mechanisms, lights, and small detail stuff like hatches that look real and stuff like that.
Maybe someone will put one together and sell some to us
Jeff
When we do the build of the 144" Jug, we are going to do some things like a remote control canopy, working lights (including in the cockpit), a working gun camera with real time transmitter, operational cowl flaps, and much more. The thread is here. www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10146256/tm.htm You may find some of this interesting.
We are collecting supplies and parts for her and will be underway soon. The gear will be Sierra and the scale tire is 10"!!!!!!
01-05-2011, 04:19 PM
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RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
WOW !!
That is a great project. I just picked up a Miko P-47 and have started on it (only 5.5" wheels) Will be trying my best to add as much scale detail as possible without adding too much weigh since it's only 1/5.5 scale. Those bigger planes sure make adding that stuff more resonable since you can get in the things easier. The gun camera will be very cool!
What you really need is a virtual pilot so you can see where you are aiming. You might think about sticking a laser on the thing so you can point it at targets. We have tried to do this and it's very difficult to see any other planes in flight. It really helps to get in the plane and aim from the cockpit. It's getting closer to making that happen with all the small cameras and wifi stuff around now.
Jeff
That is a great project. I just picked up a Miko P-47 and have started on it (only 5.5" wheels)
Will be trying my best to add as much scale detail as possible without adding too much weigh since it's only 1/5.5 scale. Those bigger planes sure make adding that stuff more resonable since you can get in the things easier. The gun camera will be very cool!What you really need is a virtual pilot so you can see where you are aiming. You might think about sticking a laser on the thing so you can point it at targets. We have tried to do this and it's very difficult to see any other planes in flight. It really helps to get in the plane and aim from the cockpit. It's getting closer to making that happen with all the small cameras and wifi stuff around now.
Jeff
01-05-2011, 04:35 PM
#308
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RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
"When you buy an ARF, you stop "MODELING" and start..........."ASSEMBLING"
wow , that is truly prolific , drama , drama , drama and you wonder why people fly alone at parks , schools and open fields lol ,
lets draw more lines lol , a true builder is the modeler who draws his own plans , traces his plans on wood and cuts his own parts , when you buy a lasor cut kit or die cut kit you stop modeling and start "ASSEMBLING "
wow , that is truly prolific , drama , drama , drama and you wonder why people fly alone at parks , schools and open fields lol ,
lets draw more lines lol , a true builder is the modeler who draws his own plans , traces his plans on wood and cuts his own parts , when you buy a lasor cut kit or die cut kit you stop modeling and start "ASSEMBLING "
01-05-2011, 04:42 PM
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RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
i am sorry i wasnt trying to bash arfs we all got them can you tell me witch are and witch aernt in these photos
01-05-2011, 05:15 PM
#311
RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
ORIGINAL: jmohn
WOW !!
That is a great project. I just picked up a Miko P-47 and have started on it (only 5.5'' wheels) Will be trying my best to add as much scale detail as possible without adding too much weigh since it's only 1/5.5 scale. Those bigger planes sure make adding that stuff more resonable since you can get in the things easier. The gun camera will be very cool!
What you really need is a virtual pilot so you can see where you are aiming. You might think about sticking a laser on the thing so you can point it at targets. We have tried to do this and it's very difficult to see any other planes in flight. It really helps to get in the plane and aim from the cockpit. It's getting closer to making that happen with all the small cameras and wifi stuff around now.
Jeff
WOW !!
That is a great project. I just picked up a Miko P-47 and have started on it (only 5.5'' wheels)
Will be trying my best to add as much scale detail as possible without adding too much weigh since it's only 1/5.5 scale. Those bigger planes sure make adding that stuff more resonable since you can get in the things easier. The gun camera will be very cool!What you really need is a virtual pilot so you can see where you are aiming. You might think about sticking a laser on the thing so you can point it at targets. We have tried to do this and it's very difficult to see any other planes in flight. It really helps to get in the plane and aim from the cockpit. It's getting closer to making that happen with all the small cameras and wifi stuff around now.
Jeff
01-05-2011, 05:20 PM
#314
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RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
"I don't think recognizing and appreciating the work people put in their models at the differing levels of workmanship makes anyone an Elitist"
I agree ," but the lack of appreciation for freedom of choice makes a person an Elitist "
I agree ," but the lack of appreciation for freedom of choice makes a person an Elitist "
01-05-2011, 05:21 PM
#315
RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
ORIGINAL: LDM
''When you buy an ARF, you stop ''MODELING'' and start...........''ASSEMBLING''
wow , that is truly prolific , drama , drama , drama and you wonder why people fly alone at parks , schools and open fields lol ,
lets draw more lines lol , a true builder is the modeler who draws his own plans , traces his plans on wood and cuts his own parts , when you buy a lasor cut kit or die cut kit you stop modeling and start ''ASSEMBLING ''
''When you buy an ARF, you stop ''MODELING'' and start...........''ASSEMBLING''
wow , that is truly prolific , drama , drama , drama and you wonder why people fly alone at parks , schools and open fields lol ,
lets draw more lines lol , a true builder is the modeler who draws his own plans , traces his plans on wood and cuts his own parts , when you buy a lasor cut kit or die cut kit you stop modeling and start ''ASSEMBLING ''
01-05-2011, 05:28 PM
#316
RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
ORIGINAL: tenacious101010
dont think ARFs should compete against kit or scratch built aircraft. Just my opinion. I have built several large scale kits, most of them modified to be much more scale. My son and I competed at a Scale masters Qualifier a few months ago. We entered team scale with a TF Giant P-47. I added an incredible amount of details, rivets, screws, panel lines, working gear doors, 2 part main doors, different canopy, cockpit custom detailing and I can tell you, I still got a very low score. I really think that based on the other aircraft, I deserved that score because The shape of the TF kit was not accurate, it was a sport scale plane dressed as a scale plane. Now for the next event, my son has been invited to fly at Top Gun this year. We plan on entering team scale with a highly modified American Eagle Kit. I consider this plane to be super scale if there is such a thing. I have done hours of research, driven to Sun and fun, Fantasy of Flight and to the hanger of the owner of the full scale aircraft I am modeling twice. I have invested a great deal of time and money and soul into this project for myself. I am doing it to please myself. I would expect to be fairly judged and not compared to an ARF in judging. I have never built a plane for competition before so if I don’t score well against other built planes, I wont be surprised and wont be disappointed. Now on the other hand, my work is compared to an ARF and does bad, I would be greatly disappointed and would only bother building a plane for my own enjoyment, not to enter into competition. The projext I am working on is based on a composite fuselage purchased from American Eagle, the rest of the project is built from plans. It would be a lot more work to build the fuselage from wood from plans but I decided this was a better route. So I will be competing against planes built from all wood, purchased composite fuselages with different levels of modifications, who is to say where the line is drawn on the amount of work or prefabricated parts go into a project. Altho my plane has a composite fuselage that was purchased, it will look nothing like the kit built aircraft, it will be covered in aluminum sheeting. I hope at least I score well in the area of finish since its real aluminum and not paint or flite metal. Who knopws, no matter what, I am building my plane to please myself. If it scores well, great, if not, oh well....
Heres a build thread on the plane in case anyones interested.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_89...tm.htm#8903372
dont think ARFs should compete against kit or scratch built aircraft. Just my opinion. I have built several large scale kits, most of them modified to be much more scale. My son and I competed at a Scale masters Qualifier a few months ago. We entered team scale with a TF Giant P-47. I added an incredible amount of details, rivets, screws, panel lines, working gear doors, 2 part main doors, different canopy, cockpit custom detailing and I can tell you, I still got a very low score. I really think that based on the other aircraft, I deserved that score because The shape of the TF kit was not accurate, it was a sport scale plane dressed as a scale plane. Now for the next event, my son has been invited to fly at Top Gun this year. We plan on entering team scale with a highly modified American Eagle Kit. I consider this plane to be super scale if there is such a thing. I have done hours of research, driven to Sun and fun, Fantasy of Flight and to the hanger of the owner of the full scale aircraft I am modeling twice. I have invested a great deal of time and money and soul into this project for myself. I am doing it to please myself. I would expect to be fairly judged and not compared to an ARF in judging. I have never built a plane for competition before so if I don’t score well against other built planes, I wont be surprised and wont be disappointed. Now on the other hand, my work is compared to an ARF and does bad, I would be greatly disappointed and would only bother building a plane for my own enjoyment, not to enter into competition. The projext I am working on is based on a composite fuselage purchased from American Eagle, the rest of the project is built from plans. It would be a lot more work to build the fuselage from wood from plans but I decided this was a better route. So I will be competing against planes built from all wood, purchased composite fuselages with different levels of modifications, who is to say where the line is drawn on the amount of work or prefabricated parts go into a project. Altho my plane has a composite fuselage that was purchased, it will look nothing like the kit built aircraft, it will be covered in aluminum sheeting. I hope at least I score well in the area of finish since its real aluminum and not paint or flite metal. Who knopws, no matter what, I am building my plane to please myself. If it scores well, great, if not, oh well....
Heres a build thread on the plane in case anyones interested.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_89...tm.htm#8903372
Bill, Team Scale Judge
01-05-2011, 05:33 PM
#317
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RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
ram , agree i am just being sarcastic , by the way , one cool thing about Royal kits is the price they demand (unless your trying to buy one ) lol
Everytime I see a Royal kit I just cant bid enought , dont know for sure if they all have spun cowls but when you see them open the spun aluminum cowls are top notch !!!
Everytime I see a Royal kit I just cant bid enought , dont know for sure if they all have spun cowls but when you see them open the spun aluminum cowls are top notch !!!
01-05-2011, 05:37 PM
#318
RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
LDM, Most all of the Radial Engine Warbird kits came with Aluminum Cowls, I built the pt-17, it came with a Dummy Radial engine kit that was near imposible to assemble, had to have 200 pieces, I scratch built a cowl and ordered wheel pants for mine
(pic in gallery)
(pic in gallery)
01-05-2011, 05:53 PM
#320
RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
ORIGINAL: LDM
ram , agree i am just being sarcastic , by the way , one cool thing about Royal kits is the price they demand (unless your trying to buy one ) lol
Everytime I see a Royal kit I just cant bid enought , dont know for sure if they all have spun cowls but when you see them open the spun aluminum cowls are top notch !!!
ram , agree i am just being sarcastic , by the way , one cool thing about Royal kits is the price they demand (unless your trying to buy one ) lol
Everytime I see a Royal kit I just cant bid enought , dont know for sure if they all have spun cowls but when you see them open the spun aluminum cowls are top notch !!!
01-05-2011, 05:58 PM
#321
RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
ORIGINAL: LDM
The kits looked excellant , also noticed you had a jemco kit , I loved those planes !!!!
The kits looked excellant , also noticed you had a jemco kit , I loved those planes !!!!
It will never be sold, and I WILL finish it someday. It is on it's 3rd engine, and it has never been flown. I keep changing my mind. Don't know if I'll ever fly it, but I will finish it.
01-05-2011, 06:05 PM
#322
RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
Stickbuilder, BTW, I've also been invited to TG for 2011. I'm going pro-am this year. Looking forward to the experience and to meeting more modelers, and talking with judges like yourself. I'll be soaking up all I can.
Gary P.
Gary P.
01-05-2011, 06:07 PM
#323
RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
ORIGINAL: LDM
The kits looked excellent , also noticed you had a jemco kit , I loved those planes !!!!
The kits looked excellent , also noticed you had a jemco kit , I loved those planes !!!!
The other Hellcat I paid $10 for, it came out of the trash, the guy that pulled it sold it to me,,I refurbished that one, added retract and a fiberglass masters cowl. Hand painted the shark mouth. I flew it for a while before a Radio Hit did it in.
fun planes both
01-05-2011, 06:55 PM
#324
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RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
ORIGINAL: scale only 4 me
I don't think recognizing and appreciating the work people put in their models at the differing levels of workmanship makes anyone an Elitist.
I don't think recognizing and appreciating the work people put in their models at the differing levels of workmanship makes anyone an Elitist.
Exactly!...... the guy who buys the ARF and does nothing to make it his OWN has... NOT progressed at all, while the guy who has taken the time to "DO THE EXTRA WORK" do the extra detailing, make better that stock out of the box product should be praised.
Praised because they have taken a true step forward and upward out of the darkness of ignorance with that extra effort to become a "Modeler". With more steps forward comes with it the knowledge , skills and glory of being enlightened. The Pride in ones OWN improved worksmanship, craftsmanship and aircraft is not ....Elitist .....its freek'in ....wonderful.
Nobody starts out with rivets, panel lines, glassed planes that drop bombs, cockpits that open and close.....We work and learn to do each aircraft better than the last regardless of what level your at right now.
Some of those Royal and Jemco kits were "really" sand or carve to shape, you learned alot of modeling skills doing one of those. Which is precisely what the ARF modeler is missing out on if they stick to ARFS......learning the soon to be lost "Black arts of modeling".
01-05-2011, 07:44 PM
#325
RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?
ORIGINAL: airkiller
Some of those Royal and Jemco kits were ''really'' sand or carve to shape, you learned alot of modeling skills doing one of those. Which is precisely what the ARF modeler is missing out on if they stick to ARFS......learning the soon to be lost ''Black arts of modeling''.
Some of those Royal and Jemco kits were ''really'' sand or carve to shape, you learned alot of modeling skills doing one of those. Which is precisely what the ARF modeler is missing out on if they stick to ARFS......learning the soon to be lost ''Black arts of modeling''.
The ME/BF-109 flew great and the P-51 is still under construction after 24 years. Yikes! The things that I thought were good ideas during the intial construction almost make me want to cry now. I was 20 and it was my second ever kit.
After shelving it due to school, active military, and young kids for 15 years, it took another 5 of looking at it and shaking my head to finally decide to start the deconstuction in order to reconstruct/fix it to where I am now-looking at maiden this spring.
Truely, there was no better experience or knowledge base than that gained by all of the mistakes on this kit/plane to be able to move on to better planes, kits and ARFs, in the interim AND nothing gave me the wealth of alternative skills, techniques and confidence to actually undertake the rebuild of this plane with confidence than the many ARFs that I've bashed. But, the ARF bashing relied on the foundational skills and construction knowledge learned from kits and scratch builds.
In the end, I love and respect them all. (psst....there's even a foamie in the shed!![X(] Don't tell anyone....especially my wife!)