I'm about ready to tackle the assembly of my H9 1/4-scale Cap 232. Any recommendations from experience with this airplane is greatly appreciated. Here is a few baselines I will be working with:

1. Moki 1.80 -w- Cline Regulator
2. Grass runway
3. Either Futaba 8AUF or Hitec Eclipse TX

I want to set this up for 3D. I won't be actually flying 3D for a while but eventually would like to get into it.

Some of my thoughts and looking for comments:

1. Dual-servo elevator -w- separate channel connections or y-connector. Without breaking the bank what is the recommended servo for this configuration? (I have considered Hitec 605BBs or maybe Hitec 700BBs) I've heard a rumor that the 605s do not hold center very well. (Comment form Mike at Hitec???) In light of the the tail-heavy nature of this airplane can I consider mounting these servos in the tail with the Moki upfront for balast?

2. 4-40 Pull-Pull rudder. Servo recommendations? (I have also considered going with the Hitec 605BB but think the Hitec 700BB might be more appropiate.?)

3. Airlon. Servo recommendations? I will probably set these up for flaperons, using channel 1 and 6.

4. I would like to place a 32oz tank on the CG. Will this pose a technical challenge? I'm not concerned with fuel flow because the Cline Regulaor on the Moki should be able to support my idea. What will doing this do to my CG configuration -- effect on my servo/RX/battery placements?

* What are the construction weakness' for this bird? Where should I pay attention to strengthening the glue lines? Should I glass the wing halves (Fiberglass vs carbon fiber cloth?)

* Are the small wheels and wheel pants a significant problem on a grass strip?

* Is the included tailwheel assembly sufficient for this airplane?

Any ideas are greatly appreciated.

First off, if you do a search, there is tons of stuff on here about this plane that will probably answer all your questions so I will hit a few critical high points.

I have built and still have/fly two of these. One with a Saito 1.80 and the other with MVVS 1.60Gas, so take my comments for what they are worth.

Grass: If it gets long leave the wheel pants off. I have not used them on either of mine; they are a pain to assemble just for looks.

CG: Neither of my planes needed nose weight. I actually had to move everything as far back as I could on the MVVS. Even with my limited flying experience I think the CG is optimistically forward.

Durability: These planes are very sturdy. I have banged and pranged both of mine several times. Dead stick ditch landings, flown into soccer goal, etc, etc. I have not glassed either wing and have seen no indication you need it. All this being said, there are a few weak spots - the aileron servo trays, the landing gear blocks and the cowling. Slop epoxy all around inside of the servo trays and on every joint you can find around the landing blocks. I have torn out both my gear blocks because of "situations". The good part is they are easily reparable and I have had neither come loose after I repaired them. The cowl is somewhat fragile. Make sure you leave plenty of space around things that protrude and vibrate. Don't be too ruff with it or you will be epoxying cracks.

Electronics: I have Hitec 605's on (dual pushrod) elevator and ailerons. Hitec 5925 digital on rudder. Seem to work very well.

Tips:
-Sealed aileron and elevator gaps with ultracoat.
-make sure you trial fit wing to make sure you don't need extra spacer.
-Remove covering over hole in front of fuselage and cover with 1/16" ply when done. makes working on things much easier.
-Replace short landing gear bolts with allen heads and mount with nuts on out side, saves a lot of aggravation.
-Make sure you mount all switches on right side of plane so you don't have to reach over to turn things on and off.
-chuck the tail wheel and get a Sullivan.
-Forget factory instructions on how to mount wing. Its a total pain, hard to do and the supplied wood is weak and will enlarge after a few flights.
(1) Expoxy a piece of good 1/8" ply (grain accross the big holes) behind the wing mount bulkhead.
(2) Stick a dab of grease or chalk on the end of the wing dowels and slid up to bulkhead so that they leave a mark.
(3) Drill the correct size hole, trim everything out and enjoy my smart idea.

If I think of something I missed I'll post later. You will love flying this plane. Just as a flight note: I fly mine on factory recommended Low/3D rates with high expo on both rates. Makes it easy to fly the hole envelope. At 1-1/8" elevator it will still snap if you pull full max elevator, but the high expo makes it very docile to fly in the landing pattern or for normal sport stuff. I'm just now experimenting with 3D so not much help there.

Splais,

Thanks for the input -- will take all to heart.

I have one quandary. I've heard a rumor that the Hitec 600 servos do not center very well. My experience with my Ultra Stick 60 (605s for elevator and rudder) seem to support the rumor. How does this problem effect your flying. I'm trying to decide to go with Hitec 600s or spend the extra $15.00 and get their digitals????? If I was to go with Hitec digitals all around I would be out almost $300.00. Will the extra centering precision warrant the extra expense?

Steve,

Thanks for your comments on the 232. We have had several of these around here and one of my buddies has experienced the dreaded snap and resulting spin into the ground with the CG set at 5-5/8 inches. I have flown the airplane at 6 inches with the elevator tamed down somewhat without any problems. What is the balance point on your planes.

Thanks, Tim

Servos that don't center properly result in a bird that won't hold trim settings consistently.

I have a pair of 615MGs running the tail of my Ultra Stick. These servos have the same tendency to double-center - the plane tend to climb, dive or yaw slightly depending on the last input given. Very annoying.

As for my Cap (still unbuilt) - I'll be using the following:

• FMA 3601 coreless servos on all flying surfaces (two on the elevator)
• JR 517 or FMA 360 on throttle
• CF pushrods for the elevator and rudder
• H9 titanium links on the ailerons
• Ball links on all flying surfaces - 4-40 size, I guess
• CF landing gear (from troybuiltmodels.com)
• Either 3.25" or 3.5" rubber wheels depending on what fits in the wheelpants (I haven't looked) - our field is quite rough
• Sullivan tailwheel bracket for 10-lb+ aircraft
• Mvvs 1.60 gasser
• 18x8 or 20x6 prop once the motor has been run in
• Al spinner
• 4-cell 1650 NIMH rx pack
• 4-cell 1100 nicad pack for ignition

I've probably forgotten something, but those are the major items.

I'm on my 3rd now with a Moki 2.10. I agree with just about everything posted but I'll share a couple extra points.
1. Make sure that the wings, elevator halves and ailerons are warp free. Hangar 9 hasn't shipped a wing that didn't have a warp in it (neither has anyone else for that matter). Every other trim technique is null and void unless the wings are straight. Put a meter on them, twist them straight and iron out the wrinkles, several times for each side until they're right!
2. I've been using the ball-bearing belcrank from MK for elevator. It's designed for pattern but the large one fits in the H9 Cap. You'll have to glue in 3/32 ply triangles in the fuse side lightening holes to support it. It eliminates asymetry in the elevator that'll come with running the Y pushrod or dual servo's, especially with 45 deg. Coupled to a carbon rod and ball links it's a bulletproof set up and virtually friction free. Central Hobbies sells them.
3. Mount your gear with 2 1/4-20 bolts thought the front 2 holes. I used the carbon gear too and just tapped the 1" x 1/2" block for 1/4-20.
4. If you're going to hover and T/R, consider installing a baffle in the cowl cheek for that Moki. Mine is mounted on its side and has louvers cut in the cheek behind the head. A business card works real well, just coat it in C/A. 10-1 compression + no airflow + 80 deg. day w/80% humidity = blown up Czech motor.
F.Y.I. The Cap that I built for a buddy with a 1.8 was the best balanced plane for 3D that I'd ever flown. It was perfect! You should have a ball with it. Just make sure that the wing is straight!

Chris

I don't think I am good enough to know if the 605's have a centering problem (I would probably just think it was my flying). I didn't think digitals would actually make that much difference. But difference in strength (holding power) and speed of movement is markedly better on the 5925's I have. If I ever do the 80"er I will probably try to afford digitals all around. My CG's are still on or slightly back from the factory recommendation only because I haven't taken the trouble to move them. But now that I am starting to try 3D stuff I feel they need to be back some. How much, who knows.

Visioneer - I think you are right on with those props. I am still on the end of my first gallon of gas and flying a 17x8 and 18x6 prop. Darn thing never runs out of gas! I actually like the 17x8 a little better. I have an 18x8 Menz coming that I think is going to be just the ticket. 20x6 Hmmmm.

I have Hitec 605BB's on my GP Giles 1/4, with long Dubro servo horns, and I have had no problems with centering. I trimmed the plane and it stays their. I dont know what centering problems people are having. I also have them on my H9 Cap but have not flown it yet. I will post after I fly it. Daz...

I have built two of these planes. The first had the BME44 on it and the new one has the BME 50. I added absolutely no weight to either one. Obviously, they had all the power ever needed. I am running a 16 oz fuel tank in them. You mentioned that you wanted to use a 32 oz, this will give you LOTS of flying time and LOTS OF EXTRA WEIGHT (in the neighborhood of 2 pounds total) I would think twice about that.

I ripped all the coveing off of both of mine and gave everything a good looking over. I found a couple of pieces of the frame work that had been broken and then glued back together. There were other issues, but they were all fixable. With the covering off, I drilled a ton of lightening holes to reduce the overall weight. Bought the carbon gear from Troy Built Models. I had to machine my own motor mount to get the engine to fit the way that I wanted it to.

The incidence was W A Y off on the first one and just slightly on the second. Again with the covering off I was able to fix the incidence on both the elevator and the main wing. The piece of the rudder that you will glue into the tail end of the fuse will need to be trimmed to get it to fit flush. I also trimmed the corners off of the elevators to obtain a full 40 degree of throw on the rudder. I simply used a saw to cut the corners off and it needed no reinforcement ( again I built 2 of them like this)

Hope you can make use of some of this info.
Jeff

All I can say is CG can go back 1/2 to 1 inch past with no problems. Servos 605BB on rudder and aielrons, 2 425BB on the elavators. I have my elavator servos in the back inside the fuse works great.

Anybody that can't get thier servos to center is their own fault. I'm not saying this in a bad way it's just a fact. The reason why the servo won't center is because of slop in linkages and control surfaces that don't move perfectly with no binding at the hinges.

Mine is powered by MDS 1.48 with apc 17-8 prop. Landing gear plate is a little weak and aielron mounts in the wing need epoxied. Other than that plane flys great. Hanger 9 should have never stopped production on such a great plane.

I have two 605BBs in my Ultra Stick 60 (Rudder and Elevator) and the linkage on them is as tight as you can get short of mounting the servo in the rear with a solid carbon rod directly from servo to clevis -- CG on this bird would make that almost impossible. There is no binding on them at all. They are both guided stiff piano wire. I've played around with the subtrm until I got discusted. I can center them with no problem The problem is when you then move them with the control they don't go back to their set center. They are off center by as much as a whole turn on the clevis.

While your spouting facts and not providiing the basis for them try reading some of the other posts in the Hitec (Mike) area -- I'm not the only one complaining about those servos.

According to the numbers, an 20x6 loads the engine just slightly more than a 18x8 does. The field I fly from is a bit on the small side - I can use all the thrust and downline braking I can get. Assuming there's enough ground clearance for a 20" prop.

Hilleja, if your talking about me not spouting facts, and not providing basis, what more fact can I provide by flying an airplane with them, thats the best fact out there, I learned on this forum a long tome ago you cant believe everything you read, but using them and proving them out in an airplane is enough for me. Also, if you've read Mike mayberry's post YOU will know these servo's center just as good as any servo, if you want better centering go to Digital's, or coreless type servo's.
I dont need to read any other post on this servo, as they already work for me, if you believe everything you read why dont you read some post about the people who arent having any problems, and believe those too, then you will really be confused.
Daz...

Amen to that Daz.

Hillgja you better watch your tone with me. And as far as spouting facts well I have been flying with hitec servos for many years with no problems. Mike at Hitec doesn't know any more about what's going on than the next guy. And I don't need to read any of his crap either.

Apparently you don't appriecate my post or some of the others that have posted here. Opinions are just like an A@# Hole every one got one. So lighten up buddy.

Dazzler,

As you vividly pointed out the fact is I have two of them on my Ultra Stick 60 and they don't hold their centering very well. Now I guess it could be my Futaba 8UAF, but I think if the TX was responsible then their would be many more comments out here.

"The longer arms will exagerate the centering issue. You would need to go to the digital verion or coreless servos to get more precise centering."

You should be familiar with this response from Mike from Jim D complaining about centering, since you referred michael lewis to it. It clearly shows that Mike acknowledges that the 605s do not center very well and he even recommends the digitals.

BTW, I didn't start this thread to compete with other's experiences or flame anyone -- I want to learn from their experiences so I can set up my new plane from those lessons learned. Like most anyone when I express a observation about a piece of equipment and someone responds that the only problem has to be your ability to use it then I tend to respond in kind. If you look carefully at my last post you can see that my response was aimed at:

"Anybody that can't get thier servos to center is their own fault"

I'm fully aware that quality comes at a price -- just a little dissapointed that the Hitec 605BB does not hold its centering as well as I would like it to.

With all that aside, what is your recommendation for this plane's servos? Do you think the 605BBs are appropriate for this 1/4-scale airplane? As I stated earlier, I would eventually like to move to 3D with this plane but only after a long period of advancement in my flying capabilities.

CAP232CM,

"Hillgja you better watch your tone with me. " What tone is that? Do you really think flaming others with baseless statements like "Anybody that can't get thier servos to center is their own fault" is a constructive tone? What was I suppose to learn from that? All you've done is turn my "please help me" thread into a flame war. Nine times out of ten your going to get the same responce you got from me.

BTW Moderator, I think, thanks to CAP232CM, this thread is no longer a positive contribution to this forum. Please delete it.

The fact is that sloppy linkages give you... sloppy linkages. Potentiometers designed for a different application give you...lousy centering. Hitech 605, 645 have lousy centering. They are not recommended for use in multiple servo applications. That is most noticable when they're ganged up on an aileron or you run 2 elevator servos. My criticism of them is that they are difficult to match in speed and endpoints. Are they any worse than Futaba or JR? NO! The 605's and 645's just aren't well suited for this purpose. Especially when you're running +/- 45 deg. and it becomes really exagerated.
FWIW: I've seen ganged JR's on a Fiberclassics Extra pull 1 Amp at idle because they were fighting each other. Even the pro's don't get it right, they get it close.
On my Cap 1/4 I replaced the Futaba 9403's with Hitech 5925's. For my 1/3 Cap I just picked up (6) HS-5925's, (2) HS-5945's and the programmer.
I think that the 605's are just fine for aileron and elevator if you're on 6v. You'll need close to 100 in/oz for rudder though. Like I said before the biggest problem is getting the elevators matched when you run them independently.

You know I've been in this hobby for years, and just in the last 3 years I've been flying larger airplanes. Well before these larger ones came into my fleet I flew, and still fly 40 and 60 size plane's utilizing Futaba S148,3003,and 3004's JR 507,517, and 537 servo's. All these have always worked fine, and planes fly straight and level "handsoff", never had a problem. Now all of the sudden the new servo's arent good enough.

I'm really starting to believe that all this gets started by an industry that wants everyone to switch over to digital servo's, and pay $60-100 per servo, thats ridiculous. When you put out a new digital servo in the market, and say their faster, with more torque, and better centering than non digital servo's, then you might think the standard servo's dont do all that well.


For you non 605BB Believer:
Can anyone tell me what centers better, Hitech 605BB or a Futaba 3004?
and the reason I ask this is because if the 605BB'S center as well as the Futaba 3004'S, then it works, and again I have flew my 1/4 Giles with them and they worked fine. Daz...

Jeeez, you guys are giving me a headache here. Everybody must have gotten a bad batch of morning coffee. Taking things much to personnelly both in the give and take. We all know you have to take everything said for what it may or may not be worth. One mans silk is anothers sows ear. Now that was deep. :boxing:

Hideho all,

I think that this thread has run it's course.
Let's try to keep it a wee bit lighter, ok gentlemen?

Thanks,