Stevta, I agree with you that at times moderators jump in at the wrong time, and I hate it when they talk to you like your their 10 year old step son.
I had a moderator tell me to put a lid on it, because me and this other guy got into a bicker, I may have been wrong but dont talk to me like that, I guarantee you he wouldnt have said that to me in person :boxing: . Daz...

We have had such a good time arguing about building or ARFs---YEA----LETS ARGUE ABOUT THE MODERATOR FOR A WHILE!!!!! --you do a good job Mike

Hey stevta,

Where on earth did you get the idea that I said the thread had to end?
Read the post.......

As far as reminding you all that we all like the same hobby, so what?

Here's a tip.....cooling down a thread that's getting a little hot is my job. I take it seriously. I'll not delete a thread that has terrific info and comments like this one does.

I may prune derogotory comments though.

Again,
'Ave a Gday...

Well....well.......He started it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are real-world reasons why this sort of thing can't be done. Manufacturing for small-volume products like our ARFs is generally done in batches. Proper jigs and molds are created and set up in a line, and a batch is turned out. Once a model has been out of production for a while those jigs and molds are scraped. It's not economically feasible to maintain production capabilities for a kit that's out of production.

If a third party makes cowls (for example) they can't be expected to maintain capabilities they don't intend to use in the future. Your example of 25 cowls is somewhat ridiculous from a manufacturing perspective. There are realities of business that you aren't considering. Ann Marie explained the parts warehousing problem well for you.

I don't like ARFs. I've had two now, a TT Fun Tiger which was a hunk of junk, and a H9 Ultra Stick that I'm putting together now. I can build better than the Ultra Stick (it had some minor fuse alignment issues), and the Fun Tiger was just plain poor from the start. I've got 3 kits on the building boards right now that I've been working on for some time. They'll get done soon enough, but I wanted something new to fly this next week.

Time is an issue. Anyone who says it isn't is very fortunate. I work, and I go to school full time in the evenings. In the winter I have other hobbies, such as skiing and socializing. Not everyone enjoys snow or has friends/family I guess. I'd rather have finished one of those kits, but the way in which I prioritize my time doesn't allow it right now.

ARFs do continue to get better. In another 5 years I imagine the build standards will be better than I could do from a kit. Everyone in this hobby seems to have something they lament, be it kits, Futaba Gold radios, or AMA dues increases. Personally I miss sport planes that didn't all look like a Cap. That's just me though, from the way the market seems to be going.

If you can build it better yourself and have the time, hey, more power to ya. If you can do that but can't fabricate a cowl for yourself, well... that's ironic, eh? There are plenty of fiberglass specialty shops that'd be happy to make you a cowl, I'm sure.

I fly during the winter..... I also have a house that needs landscaping, a garage that needs finishing, not to mention a job that ties me up at odd hours at times (gotta love being on-call). Oh yeah, almost forgot the wife, her mom (who is 80 and has health issues), and our 6 year old daughter who has school, functions, etc. I added the family last, because they are first and foremost important. I have two kits up on the shelf, they have not been started simply because I do not have the time to build them. I also bought and sold a 1/3 scale weeks solution biplane project (empty fiberglass fuse/ cowl/ wheelpants), because it was going to take me at least 2 years and $3000.00 for me to do it at the level I wanted it done at. It is not a question of posessing the talent to build them, for I can build contest quality model construction (model railroading, my other "addiction"). I CHOOSE to buy arfs because I can get them into the air in a relatively short span of time. But, I also take my time on an arf (took me close to 40 hours to "assemble" my magic 3d, over the course of a month or two, but it looks and flies as good as 98% of the kits/planes at our field. I can sleep at night with that level of performance.


We can gripe about ARF quality all we want, but there are going to be good ones and bad ones. Same thing happens with kit built planes. There are guys you would gladly buy any plane in their arsenal because they are built straight and true, and there are others whose planes you wouldnt fly if they were given to you. (paintball target drones excepted there )

There are arfs that are exceptional values, and there are some that I could never justify the expense on.

You are taking a risk by having someone other than yourself assemble the plane. And if you have the time/talent to build them yourself, then knock your socks off doing it. We, the consumers have the ultimate yes or no vote in what's hot, and what's not. We are always looking for the newest/latest/greatest products that we can get our hands on (that doesnt just apply to RC) We want it yesterday, for it to look and work perfect, never break, and we want it for as close to free as possible. And if it doesnt meet or exceed all of those items, we are going to gripe about it. That is the American way. We can offer "constructive criticism" to AMC, and her coutnerparts to encourage them to monitor and/or improve their quality control, so we can truly "get what we pay for". If they do not address those concerns to your satisfaction, you and use the power of your checkbook/credit cards to buy somewhere else.

I think i added $.04 instead of my $.02 cents worth

Steve

It needs to be noted that in the beginning of this thread, I did not and have not bashed anyone for going the ARF route. That would be fairly ignorant as I have done this myself. I did, however, state that there are a lot of people that USE such excuses as not having the time to build to simply cover for the lack of cerain skills. Not having these skills is fine, I would and have encouraged people to enlist the help of more experienced builders as it is MY OPINION that building is a very important part of this hobby.

With that being said and picking the stick up to swing at the horse AGAIN, I think that the quality of ARF's need to go up proportionately to the price and I DO NOT think that this is the case.

Jeff

I know this thread started in May, but I'm just now getting to it, and here's my question to Captain232. The main point Captain232 was trying to put across was simply: " I think if we become interested in a new plane that comes to the market, we should get on here and talk about "A FAIR PRICE" before we buy them all up. I am not out to make companies go under, rather to get a decent deal."
How do you propose "we" as in rcuniverse.com are going to do a "Cost Analysis Vs Quality" and come up with a "Fair Price" that would satisfy the majority of the R/C market over a multitude of different companies and their vendors and their suppliers?
To accomplish this incredible feat.. would definately mean having to buy out every single R/C component manufacturer and all of their suppliers, which in turn would give you the "fair price" vote you are asking for. This would then become a Monopoly.. wouldn't it? Monopolies of the past; ie, Rome, Attlia, Napolean, Hitler, AT&T, GM, Microsoft, IBM, DOW, all thought they could rule the world where others failed. Well, they failed, and eventually, you would too. Case in point, what you are asking for, is impossible. It is a nice thought though, and I appreciate the great time I had in reading all of these posts !!

Jerry hit the whole crux of the ARF vs. kit vs. scratch from plans vs. scratch from brain issues that are "plaguing" our hobby, and some of your minds. To me, building is great fun, and I take personal pride in it. To some of my friends, it's a royal PITA! One reason is a lack of artistic ability, and like it or not, construction is an art, not a science. ARFs have a place, or they wouldn't be there. Kits have a place, or they wouldn't be there. Unfortunately, from MY perspective, I see kits diminishing. Consequently, I am now looking into plans and kit-cutters (I can't cut a straight line with a straight-edge). In many cases, it has nothing to do with laziness, but with inability! My son (now 23 years old), has tried numerous times to build kits, but has always ended up frustrated because he can't do it. No matter how simple the kit, and how much help I give, he can't do it. The wing, built on the same perfectly flat surface I use, is warped; or the left wing is longer than the right wing (both built over the plans), etc. But he CAN fly, and loves it. Why penalize him, and our hobby, by saying he's a second-class hobbyist? I could care less about the internal workings of an automobile, yet I drive one daily. My son, OTOH, is an excellent mechanic, and loves to get grease from head to toe. Different strokes for different folks. Should we be considered less motorists because we can't build a car, even from a kit?

AM,

Thanks for the manufacturers' perspective!

So I read this thread all the way to here. Holy cow, it seems all has been said that should be said. I couldnt't help but think about other sports and hobbies as I read the thing.

I know fisherman who craft their own rods from a culm of bamboo. They have hundreds of hours in a rod.

I personally have assembled a few from components , to get exactly what I wanted. This would be an ARF I guess - some call it rod building

And then there are tons of guys who fish with ready-to-fish equipment right off the store shelf.

All those guys are enjoying that sport.

Ditto for golfing and the equipment. Most guys buy their clubs, some guys make theirs.

The only difference here is that our flying hobby started with plans and kits and PROGRESSED into ARF's . Don't fight it.

-Cheech

AMCROSS types...

>Customers cry to me every day about the decline of kits >availability. But, when they drop their dollars in this hobby, kits >is not where they're spending them...

>we re-released the US 1000 kit 2 years ago after a huge outcry >on the web for it. and you know what? we sat on a pile of them >for way too long compared to the supposed demand. Even folks >who "guaranteed us" they'd order one never did (you bet i kept >track...i'm the one who put my neck out there on it!)....


Wow! I sensed some real hidden hostility there!

I recalled when the US1000 was re-introduced a couple of years back. and I pledged and did purchased two US1000 kits then, even when the field I am at is too small for anything bigger than 60 size. As of now, I sat on 3 unbuilt US kits. I don't regret ever purchase those unbuilt kits. I pledged to buy them, and I did. Should US60 ever becomes available again, I will most likely buy them as well. As to those who pledged but did not go through the deal, just repeat after me: " ...heathens and scoundrels.."

I don't think it was hidden at all...An obvious frustration that comes from sticking your neck out...and then getting it lopped off.

I remember that thread at RCO a few years ago...there were umpteen guys saying they'd buy the US1000..a good twenty or thirty more as I recall....

The sales didn't match the claims to buy...Just because you were a man of your word is no implication that others were.

And, FWIW, the quality and quantity of ARFS increased dramatically shortly thereafter....at that time there were very few "big" ARF's available.....

I think AMC's frustration is justifyed...

I was there...and I moderated that forum too.

Just calling 'em as I see 'em.

What the market will bear while blowing your dress up....My Dad ties flies and changes his oil....I have but don't, nor do I build rods, but have cut a cane pole to GREAT effect...Spiders spin silk and I may one day...one ARF, one kit, lots of dreams, so little time, spend my dollars wisely etc., ad nauseum. I just wish Brian Bosworth had built my ARF. It would be on 'roids with a loose screw! Come to think of it....Naw, couldn't be.

For comparison, I got out my 1992 Tower Catalog and looked up some prices of ARFs.

For example, the Hobbico Avistar 40 ARF sold for 124.95 (149.95 retail) back in 1992 can be had for 89.99 today, and I dare to say the quality of the ARFs today is better than the ARFs of old.

The quality of the engines and radios seemed to have goe up while the price stayed relatively constant for nearly 10 years.

Bogh types:

>The sales didn't match the claims to buy...Just because you were a man of your word is no implication that others were.


I've always wondered why US1000 was the plane chosen to be re-released. I wondered even back then, and I still wonder about it even today.

I contend that had GP re-issued the US40 instead of the US1000, GP would have sold alot more than they had US1000. The market for kits bigger than 60 is pretty small compare the 40 to 60 size. I bit my lips then and basically assumed GP Marketing determined US1000 was the size most people wanted. Had that not been the case, then it was surely a marketing blunder on GP's part.

P.S. I wonder how AMCROSS managed to keep track of people who ordered the US1000 kits? I placed the order through Omnimodels. Hmmmm! Do we have Big Sister overlooking our shoulders?

Four years ago I had the worst "allergy" attack I've ever experienced. I went to the doctors, got shots, pills, etc. In the late evening I could hardly breath. Then one beautifull, clear day while hacking my lungs out at the flying field, a fellow modeler said, "you're allergic to CA glues!!" Huh?? I quit using the glue, and quess what? No more prblems. Turns out, that more people are allergic to these glues, and don't suspect it. Of course the simple answer is to use the oderless ca's. Not really. There is a masking agent added to it that hides the oder, and I still had the same problems. Of course you don't hear to much about it from the industry, although I suspect those that distribute these products are well aware of it. This is why I build ARF's. Limited gluing in plenty of fresh air, makes me a very happy camper...........

Jbflier, your right that CA is some dangerous stuff to your insides, everytime I built a kit, my insides felt like crap, thats why it is recommended to use in a well ventilated area, but most of us build in our shops that arent well ventilated, I just stay away from that stuff now. Daz...

I stopped using CA a couple of years ago, and went back to "Elmer." The joints are just as strong(if not stronger). It just take a little longer for the glue to cure, which gives me more time to correct any alignment errors I might make (who me?). There's nothing written, anywhere that I can find, that says we only have two choices, CA or ARFs. If you like to build, build, just don't use CA. There are more choices available, if you really want to build.

Ok, I live is Sweden where the hobby isn't very big. It's a (very)small market (the people you see in the only RC-magazine are the same every month). That's why I have to pay about 300 USD for a Sig SE ARF. Or 1500 USD for a Futaba 9z. 190 USD for a OS 46 FX. I could go on forever. We also have about 1-2 months of summer. The rest is cold as the grave. You don't hear me *****ing about it. I live in a cramped expensive apartment and have no place/time to build. I'm pretty sure wouldn't do it if I had to. I probably even wouldn't have started flying. So ARFs are a blessing to me. It gets me flying.

So the cheap arf that you paid like 100 bucks for ís bouit out of toothpicks by a underpaid slave-worker. What do you expect?! The long debate over labourcost is pretty accurate, I think. If you pay someone close to nothing and demand him/her to manufacture something in no-time you get poor quality. Simple as that. I'm not saying cheap stuff isn't crap. I'm just saying I KNOW it is bad. I think you yanks should start appreciate what you've got instead of just complaining. You've got reasonable prices, often good climate and you get new stuff first.

Last but not least I would just like to comment on the post comparing cars and airplane-models. Why should I pay for something that isn't even ready built? It's just like with cars. Someone will probably reply that you shouldn't compare apples and oranges but why not? More often than not you won't have to put 100s of hours into building something that you have paid big bucks for. Well, enough said for this time.