What about the quality? The Hangar 9 1/4 scale cap started out at $325, and now the Great Planes 1/4 scale extra is $400. The quality of these two planes is about the same, so why the huge price difference? Other 1/4 scale planes are getting more than $400.

It seems that the rage or trend these days is going with the ARF version. While that is fine and dandy, the industry is picking up on that and charging us MORE!!! and giving us at best the same.

I have worked in a factory for about 9 years now and I have learned a couple of things.

1) You H A V E to meet customer demands. Demands being....
a) Quality products with ongoing improvements
b) A fair price.

2) A fair price is determined by production costs, the amount of profit desired, A N D what people are willing to pay for the product.

Now I know there is a lot that goes into the production costs. I also know that the company has to make a profit. B U T, the more of these ARF's that we buy at the price they ask, the more likely they are to raise the price of the next one.

Again let's look at the HANGAR 9 1/4 scale CAP. How many of us bought one for $300. My hand is up. Then only a couple months later, they sold them for $199. Man that one PI__ED me off. Guess what, I bought one of those too.
My point is that OBVIOUSLY they could have sold them for less in the beginning, but why should they we'll buy them for more anyway. The only way to stop this trend is to "BOYCOTT" them when the prices are too high or the quality is too low.

As you can see, I am as guilty as anyone for driving the prices up. I think if we become interested in a new plane that comes to the market, we should get on here and talk about "A FAIR PRICE" before we buy them all up. I am not out to make companies go under, rather to get a decent deal.

350 CuI Small Block Chevy engine from AUTO ZONE----$999
DA, 3W, ZDZ and who ever else 100+ CC engine--$1300+

It cost me more than $200 to cover my last plane, I can put nice sheets and a comforter and my bed for $125

I know, SPECIALTY ITEMS is the key here, but I think we can do something about that.


Jeff

I'd feel guilty if I paid any LESS for my new Yellow Sukhoi. I see your point but I think that on most of the rc stuff we buy, there is not a whole lot of markup by dealers (good priced ones} or manufacturers that make the stuff. Lets face it, if they cant make a reasonable profit on producing products, they wont make em' anymore.

Look in the back of the new MAN mag. On page 140, RC SHOWCASE quotes "Giant Scale costs too much and we are doing something about it!"

--I know. We have a fella at our field that has a number of warbirds---I think it bugs me more than him but---When you pay $400 for retracts (more than new Mich radials for my car) and you ask them to work a few times a month for 8 months a year---AND THE THINGS STILL HANG DOWN OR DON'T FULLY RETRACT OR WORST YET-ONLY ONE COMES DOWN OR FOLDS UP ON TOUCHDOWN......well.........I think we are really overcharged on some things just because we will pay it.

I think you guys are right on the money. we are being taken for a ride with these ARF's. For example. Hanger 9 buys a few ( they purchase their planes from Asia) planes of a certain model to test the market. A good example was their J3 cub. When we show interest they put in a big order and if enough people are interested they re-order. Then, just at the time we need them most because parts need replacement we learn that they have moved on to the next hot model. H9 or the LHS do not carry any spares so your once nice looking airplane now looks pretty sad if you have decided to change engines and your old cowl cut outs are in the wrong places. I feel that these companies are riding this wave purely for their own bottom line and don't care if we like it or not. Plus if you really examine the ARF's they are not that great. I think that for the money they are getting they can give us decent hinges and hardware. $400 for a model with "paper" hinges? Give me a break dot com!!!.

PS I know, I know. They are plastic and not paper. To me they are paper and they are garbage. I just bought the H9 Taylorcraft and I will go to the LHS tomorrow and buy a couple of dollars worth of Klett or Sullivan hinges.

You know, their ZDZ line does cost less than some similar performing engines, but some guys STILL aren't satisfied. They decide to cut RC Showcase out, and buy the engines abroad. The killer is that they still expect RC Showcase to provide warranty work, even though they didn't buy from RC Showcase!

Kinda like the guy who walked into a restaurant and announced "You guys charge too much for breakfast, so I stopped at Kroger and brought my own. All I want you to do is cook it for me".

Jeff, why get upset because of a CLEARANCE price on a DISCONTINUED item? Just be glad for the bargain price. I don't imagine there would have been an H9 Cap to start with if all they could have sold them for was $199.

Boycott? My my, aren't we the militant one? Who is to decide what prices qualify as being too high? I dunno, all I'm qualified to speak for is ME. Silly of me to decide my neighbor spent too much money for his Lexus when a Chevy would get him there just the same, right? If you think the prices are too high, then keep your wallet in your pocket. That's boycott enough.

Come on guys. We in the USA live in a capitalistic society. We charge what the market will bear. Isn't that what you do when you negotiate a salary for a new job? Sure it is.

What fool would buy a ZDZ engine overseas and then expect RC Showcase to honor its warranty? I don't believe it.

Being a business owner I know exactly all the "games" that are played with pricing and they really don't bother me. Lost Leaders, Bait & Switch, etc. Its called free market and I wouldn't have it any other way. As a business owner, I charge the highest price the market will bear, wouldn't you? If I sell for anything less I just lost money my competitor made. If I do that long enough my competitor will run me out of business. You bought the item so the price must have been set properly. If the price was set too high, you wouldn't have bought the item. It is typical to price new items high to recover R&D, tooling and other startup costs. These costs can be enormous. In the electronics industry the one rule of thumb I've heard is to sell at seven times your manufacturing costs. Toaster costs $5 to make, sell it for $35. This is so you can recover the R&D, warranty and support costs. Once the break even is passed, it is common for prices to be lowered some to capture markets that wouldn't buy before becasue of cost. Product reaching end of life is also another good reason to lower prices to get rid of stock before the new versions arrive.

Basically what you are complaining about is how our markets work. I hear a lot of belly aching at my local club about prices. When I've heard enough I always say something to the effect of "If you think you can build a better mouse trap and sell it for less than everyone else and still put food on the table I say go for it." As of yet all they do is complain. Smile, be happy.

Ed, last year, ZDZ engines were having a problem with their ignitions (a problem that has since been fixed). There was much online crying when RC Showcase would not provide new ignitions for engines that were bought overseas. One guy spent much bandwidth talking about how his Chevrolet is warranted by any dealer in the USA, thus RC Showcase should do the same since they sell ZDZ engines. Of course, RC Showcase was very responsive to their OWN customers, just not so with guys who bought overseas.

We ARE a society that goes to the bank and deposits pennies and wants to draw back dollars!

All this belly aching about the cost of Arf's, someone show me a kit that can be built and covered for less than the cost of a comparable ARF, you can't. God bless the ARF.

Are you kidding me? $400 for a Taylorcraft ? I can build one better for $400. It's just a simple trainer. The only edge the ARF's have is time. I bought one as a matter of fact (monocoat covered and all!! Probably the worst covering in the world, especially on a WW1 job like GP's DR1)

The only point I will give you is that ARF's fill the needs of those people who lack building skills. Then of course they look great.

Another ***** I have about ARF's is that they do not include a set of plans. If you smash up a wing where do you get the rib templates? Or are they disposable?

An excellent description of how most markets work and how the hobby will continue to work. I wish you had expounded more on the part about cutting prices driving you out of business.

I really would like someone to explain to me how they think something is too expensive that they just bought. Apparently for them it wasn't too expensive.

To CAPtain232: I can buy a Honda for $15,000. Why would anyone buy a Porsche. But you know you can buy a used Porsche for $15,000. If the prices of new equipment are too high you can save an alot of money buying used equipment.


Of course what we should all be maybe most concerned about is the prices driving people out of the hobby or preventing our youth from entering. I believe you still can jump in this hobby and stay in this hobby on a relatively small budget. Some planes will just remain out of touch.

Well, if you really can build a H9 quality Taylorcraft for less than $400, then you're either retired or your time ain't worth much.

If you love to build, that's one thing. But even an optimistic estimate of 100 hours of labor building from scratch, you'd be better off flipping burgers at minimum wage.

An excellent point.

The last kit I built was a GP Electrostreak. I made some modifications to the design in order to accomodate a hot motor and ten cells, and spent somwhere in the area of 25 hours building/covering/etc.

Let's see:

I can now plunk down $130 and buy the same design as an ARF.

Hmm.

I happen to think that my time is worth more than a buck-fifty an hour. If I have to spend a little extra time adding glue (or lightness ) where appropriate, so be it.

As far as ARFs and newbies... I've had people come out to watch us fly that turned up a week or two later with a shiny new airworthy BARF trainer. No the newbie won't know how to make repairs on their own... that's where we hobby 'elders' come in. Training new modelers is about more than takeoffs and landings, after all.

I do not disagree that you may not be able to build a plane cheaper than the arf version, but you CAN build it for the same money and end result having BETTER QUALITY. Too many people in the hobby are becoming lazy and do not build, or some newer people say they do not have the skills to build, or the old stand by....I DO NOT HAVE THE TIME.

For those of you that do not have the skills, the ONLY way to obtain the skills is to build several planes. There are people out there that think they have the skills and can put one together, but they may be incapable of building truely straight wings, fuses etc. It is just the easy way out. This hobby is also about helping others. Ask for that help from a more experienced builder.

I will not even bother with those of you who say you don't have time.


Let me get on track with the whole quality issue. I bought one of the H9 Caps, 2 actually, but the first one had some issue that I or youo would not have known about unless I decided that I did not like the covering. I peeled off the covering and found a place where the framework had actually been broken and then glued together. Sure it was OK, but would you be happy if that break was in a stucturally critical spot, or if it was repaired in such a way that it added a rediculous amount of weight, or..........

Yeah I could have called and complained, but this was the 1/4 scale cap that they no longer distribute.

My whole point is........
If they are going to raise the price, then we need to demand better quality. Otherwise let's all get together and "drive" the price to a fair level. We can simply do this by chatting on RCU and discussing the price of the model and weather or not that company has the REPUTATION of a GOOD, well glued together non wing breaking tail feather ripping, kit.

Jeff

I do not have a problem with paying for quality.

"Bother with those of you......"? So if someone's schedule doesn't allow for time to build, let's kick him to the curb? He's not worthy? Jeff, I understand where you're going with this ARF thing, but everyone isn't on the same page as far as their involvement in this hobby, nor should they be. I know guys that love to build, but don't fly. I never felt that since I'm a flyer, I don't want to be "bothered" with them. I like aerobatics, but it doesn't mean I don't want to be "bothered" with someone who is into warbirds.

While I DO believe that the more one knows about things, the more success he'll have, the fact remains many still look at building or even assembling, as a necessary evil. That fact remains that not everyone has the desire to make or take the time to build a kit. If they did, then there wouldn't be a market for ARFs, because everyone would be building. Apparently (in a moment of weakness) you fit that mold since you bought at least two ARFs yourself. Your original point about quality and price has more merit.

Jeff,
Respectfully, I would ask you to take a look at ARFs in the past 10 years....and now, compare price and, step back, take a long deep breath, and take a look at quality...

what are they built of? foam board vs ply and balsa
what are they covered in? foam board that can't be repaired vs high-labor-and-high-cost MonoKote
what are the cowls? light ABS vs quality fiberglass
covering schemes/decals? ....
flying weight? overweight vs competition capable
flight performance? "its just an ARF" to many modelers saying, "I wish i could build something that flies like this"
i can keep going, but hopefully you see the point.

H9 took a he** of a gamble coming out with their big ARF. And you can bet they had a lot of $$ tied up in it when they did it, and they did a small run of htem b/c they had no idea how well they could sell. All of the R&D expenses had to be tied up in that one run b/c they may never make/sell another. The kit takes off, they can not place a huge order, no more high R&D expenses, already covered, and the story goes forward...

As far as discontinuing kits, unfortunately guys, you our customers make those decisions, we don't. When customers wallets say "i'm not buying that 2 year old design", we have 2 choices:
1) continue to try to sell it any way and lose sales
2) move on to something new that will sell.

Customers cry to me every day about the decline of kits availability. But, when they drop their dollars in this hobby, kits is not where they're spending them...

we re-released the US 1000 kit 2 years ago after a huge outcry on the web for it. and you know what? we sat on a pile of them for way too long compared to the supposed demand. Even folks who "guaranteed us" they'd order one never did (you bet i kept track...i'm the one who put my neck out there on it!)....

Supporting an item sold in another country? At least for us, it is actually against our contracts for us to do so. Even if it wasn't, we didn't make the profit of the sale, which is what pays for that warranty center to be operational. If we would eat the cost of repairing items we didn't sell, then our loyal customers, the ones who DO give us business, would end up seeing an increase in their costs to cover those added expenses. It seems pretty simple to me -- you go back to your point of purchase. If you bought it overseas to save a few bucks, then youll need to give up a few of those bucks to send it back overseas, and accept the delays, that come with your purchase choice.

Lastly, price of ARF parts -- it costs us as much to get a single fuselage stocked as the entire aircraft kit. Of course we can't charge you that much, you as a customer would never tolerate it! But the bottom line is, the small quantity of the parts needed, etc .. whether we produce them special or we have to add yet more expense, manpower, etc, to break down kits to make the stock,

Well, I hope that this maybe helps clarify a bit. Happy flying, all!

Lastly, price of ARF parts -- it costs us as much to get a single fuselage stocked as the entire aircraft kit. Of course we can't charge you that much, you as a customer would never tolerate it! But the bottom line is, the small quantity of the parts needed, etc .. whether we produce them special or we have to add yet more expense, manpower, etc, to break down kits to make the stock,

Well, I hope that this maybe helps clarify a bit. Happy flying, all! [/B][/QUOTE


What does "to get a single fuselage stocked" mean?I know you are with a different company but explain to me why I can't buy a replacement cowl for an ARF I purchased six months ago. As a customer I feel cheated. I am dissappointed that H9 does not care enough about keeping me loyal and happy. It used to be called customer service. Would you be giving away trade secrets if you told us how much profit there is for the distrubutor on a $400 ARF? Someone must be making it because they are made of cheap material with cheap labor. I would bet dollars to donuts that the provided hardware package does not cost more than 4 or 5 dollars. (don't even get me started as to why they provide metric guages for the US market)

Maybe I shouldn't say this.....

but it's a HOBBY to me...all of it.

So I can have an ARF 'ready to fly' over a weekend - great, but if I finished a $200 plane in 20 hours, that plane 'cost' me $10/hr.

On the other hand a $200 KIT that takes 100 hours to build is 'costing' me about $2/hr OF PLEASURE.

It all boils down to YOUR INVOLVEMENT - me it's a 24 hour passion - to others it is JUST SATURDAY MORNING at the flying field.

To each his own.

Jerry

And besides, if it isn't 'fun' is isn't worth doing!!!!

I must have missed something here. How do you equate money , or costs with the time spent in your workshop?Isn't the whole idea of having a hobby to get us away from the rat race? To my way of thinking time spent building is not "costing" me but rather it is PAYING me thereputically. But I am intrigued, tell me how much it costs to play a round of golf (other than green fees and bar tabs) Or how about stamp collecting? Those people must really be in the red spending all that precious time gazing at a stamp.

Since you can build a better one for $400, why did you BUY one?

Ah yes, another "elite" builder. (sigh........) We've heard from you "true modelers" before.

Guys that bought the ARF aren't usually guys that are interested in rib templates. Plans are for you "true modelers" that build your own rather than buy ARFs and then ***** about them.

Hey Monkeyboy, you're a business owner, how many of your customers ask you what YOU paid for your stock? Matter of fact, I wonder if Hanger Rat would mind telling us how much money HE paid taxes on last year? It's amazing.....when I was in business, my customers thought they could count my money better that I could.

I dunno, it's none of our business what Hanger Rat makes, and it's none of our business what profit the distributor makes. The only thing that's important is the price WE have to pay, and it's up to the individual to decide to spend it or not.

Building a kit is not all that, I have built many kits, and now have been flying ARF's. I have no problem building kits but no manufacturer is putting anything out worth building.

Just like some that builds kits, think this is the way to go, you have scratch builders that think building kits is crap. Think about it from a scratch builders point of view, when you scratch build you can select your own wood, over a random cut of wood. Daz...

I enjoy ARF's and the price tag on these things are usually pretty fair vs. building, some are even less expensive than building.

I have a friend that also purchased the GP 1/4 Giles for $199.00, now he thinks all quarter scale planes should be $199.00, and he wont spend any more than that now, just because he got one on sale.

A VERY good point. For you and CAPtain232, building provides therapy and gets you away from the rat race because you enjoy it. We don't EVER expect to see you with ARFs since they cause you both to get so upset. Many of us, however, don't share your enthusiasm for building and would rather, as quickly as possible, skip to the FLYING part where, for us, therapy abounds. Yeah, we may never be "real modelers", but we're having FUN!!!