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Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Old 08-04-2004, 03:32 AM
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RustyTumbles
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Default Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

I am interested into getting into gas powered aerobatic models, and I am looking for a entry level setup. I don't want to build a $3000 AUD plus model, I just want something around 70-80" wingspan and will fly well on a zenoah G26 or G38 and perform scale aerobatics (IMAC).
I would also like it to be able to do nice flat spins, upright and inverted as well as elevators, harriers (if possible) and still be able to land slowly......

I was thinking of maybe a world models extra or the minicraft cap 232, but I am open to any suggestion/opinions. Any ideas from you guys?

As this will be my first gasser I want to do it right the first time, and not have to learn the art of gas models the hard way.

thanks
Old 08-04-2004, 04:21 AM
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jbflier
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

You may consider the Hanger 9 Ultra Stick with a Zenoah G-26. This package is relatively inexpensive and will do most of what your looking for. You're asking alot for what you call entry level...............
Old 08-04-2004, 05:15 AM
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Let me recommend a 84" or larger model with a 50cc engine.
THis will allow you to do 3D easily as well as aerobatics.
Old 08-04-2004, 06:26 AM
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RustyTumbles
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

I would like to go to a 84" or bigger, however I don't think my budget would stretch quite that far! Also I don't think there are many models that size here in australia.......

What I really mean buy entry level is a in-expensive, simple to use and reliable gas engine setup. I don't won't to spend thousands of dollars just on engine.

Alot of people say these engines are to heavy for a good aerobatic plane, yet others say they are perfect for the smaller of the large models if that makes sense?

I love the site of these large models flying around, and the sound of the gas engines. Also the cost to run a gasser is alot less than a large glow engine.

I'd really like to see if it is possible to get a great flying 120 size plane with a budget gas engine.
Old 08-04-2004, 07:47 AM
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NOVAflier
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Correct me if I am wrong, as I am not a gasser expert, but from what I have read/hear/been told inexpensive gas engines are heavy and could cause weight issues in a light plane such as an ultra stick.
Old 08-04-2004, 08:08 AM
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DMichael
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

The issue that you face is that the 72 to 80 inch size planes are kind a bit of a "tweener". Too large for economical use of a large glow engine and too small for optimum flying characteristics with a gas engine (planes come out too heavy).

I agree with the idea of going a bit larger if you can.

I read that you say you want to do it right the first time- but that you are also not wanting to spend a lot of money- sometimes those two desires are in conflict with each other or, at the very least, really narrow your potential choices.

The only thing I can think of now is the Wild Hare planes. I'm not sure about the logistics of getting one of these shipped to Australia but they only cost about $400 USD and can be flown very well with a G62. This would put the plane and engine at under $1000 USD.

http://www.wildharerc.com

As far as the the Zenoah line of engines that you mention, I would personally not use a G38 for an aerobatic plane. The power v. weight on this engine is not great. I would step up the the G45 or G62.

Good luck
Old 08-04-2004, 08:31 AM
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Maudib
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Most people choose a gas plane for either of 3 reasons:

1) Because it's something new to learn and get into

2) It's lower cost to operate (fuel costs)

3) They want to fly larger planes that glow can't handle (or would be too costly to operate on their budget)


If you want to experiment with gas... then consider a larger profile from ohiomodelplanes.com with a Roto or MVVS gas engine.

If you want to fly a larger plane (bigger DOES fly better) then do look at the 50cc class planes... Wild Hare Edge/Extra, BME Edge, Chip Hyde Double Vision, EF 87" Yak.

Yes you will have more money in it, but you will simply love the experience... especailly if you get either the 87" Yak or DV... these planes are the bomb. I haven't flown an 87" Yak but did the 67" most forgiving, performing plane I've ever owned. The DV is right on it's heels. Walls and elevators are spectacular... like no attempt at snapping at all... I hhave the BME Edge but won't get it together anytime soon, and I have flown both a WH Edge & Extra... didn't like them as much do to their tendency to snap with too much elevator. It's mormal for Edges & Extras, but when you fly a plane that doesn't exhibit such things... woowee mate!

A good 50cc engine will set you back $600 with muffler... BUT keep this in mind... the resale value of a 50cc engine is high as there are so many choices to put it in... a smaller gas engine will be harder to move off...

The 50cc planes will still use the same number of servos as a smaller one, just maybe a little stronger...


BTW... I believe the DVs are in stock now and the EF Yaks will be in around the 8th of September...
Old 08-04-2004, 09:36 AM
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tIANci
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

bigsport - its not very true that gassers are that much more heavier than glow engines. E.g. the MVVS 160 (26cc) gasser is only like 50 grams heavier than an OS160 glow, for a plane of 72" the 50g is nothing. Have a look at the MVVS is you want to go into gas and do not want to burn your pocket.

As for planes, try the Extreme Flight Yak 54 (68"), she is light, about 8.5 lbs only. Another plane might be a Lanier Laser 200, 72" at 9.5 lbs. I have seen the CMPro/GSP Extra 300 (72") fly and she does fly well, not too great but well. That plane comes in at about 12 lbs. For me I say you should go for the EF Yak ... weight is everything!
Old 08-04-2004, 09:39 AM
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Doug Cronkhite
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Honestly.. stick with the 50cc size engine as a starting point. It's large enough that it behaves like the big engines but small enough to not be overwhelming. DA, 3W, ZDZ and others make great 50cc engines, and there are literally dozens of airframe choices.
Old 08-04-2004, 09:43 AM
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tIANci
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Eeeerrrr ... does money being an issue ring a bell? Hehehe ...
Old 08-04-2004, 10:07 AM
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ptgarcia
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

If cost is a concern, the Hangar 9 Ultra Stick Lite and Zenoah G26 may be the best bet. If you can swing it, the best choice may be a 50cc class ship. Good luck!
Old 08-04-2004, 10:11 AM
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Maudib
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Not really...

Often times budget is really determined by percieved value.

So often guys will skimp on servos, extensions, switches, engines, etc in order to get the cost down to a percieved value...

I used to be one... I thought who in their righ mind would play $90 for a HiTec 5945 when they could geta 5645 for $50... Then I finally tried them... They really are awesome servos and I can notice a difference in authority, speed and accuracy.

So now I look at as on a 50cc it's gonna cost me $200 more... but in the scheme of things... it's worth the extra $200.

When it comes to gas aerobats, there really aren't any under 50cc that doesn't have the wingloading suffering... Yes it can be done, but many are dissappointed.

You mentioned 50 grams not being alot... first it's actually 4.2 oz heavier than a 1.60fx..

Then add 3 oz or so for ignition battery, another 1 oz. for switch/mounting materials. You are 1/2 lb heavier... and that is a good bit on a smaller plane.

And the MVVS 23cc costs $400 with no muffler... the Brison 3.2 (52 cc) costs $450...


Overall, yes a 50cc gasser is gonna run a minimum of $300-$500 more.... but oh baby... the difference in wingloading, flight characteristics and resale value makes up the difference.

Bottom line is the MVVS 1.6 (when installed with required items) is approx. 1/2 lb heavier but less powerful than an O.S. 1.60... So you fly a plane that is that much heavier with that much less power... Why? When for $300 more you could have a lighter wingloading, better power to weight ratio, a better flying plane and a higher resale value?


Now, I'm not knocking your views, just wanted to offer an alternative view for comparison.
Old 08-04-2004, 10:46 AM
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tIANci
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Maudib ... I take offence to what you are saying, you are definately knocking me!!! This is most unacceptable!!!!


Just kidding ok ... seriously, its true that a 50cc gasser costs a little more but then when you put in the cost of a plane that huge and the servos (digital high torque) that go with it, its a very different ball game from a 26cc.

Point taken on your additional weight for a gasser but remember you only need an 8 oz tank for each flight, compare that with a 24 oz of a glow! We are taking at least 10oz lighter in fuel and that will more than cover the extra weight for batt/ignition/engine. Also, 10 oz at lift off means the plane does not reach its sweet spot for the first 4-5 mins. Also, 8 oz is nothing on a good 72" plane ... your wing loading will only increase no more than 1.5 oz/sq foot. Get a nice 72" that weights 9.5 lbs and the extra 1/2 lb is nothing. Remember most GSP 72" planes are about 13 lbs and everyone says how great they fly!

Now in Malaysia a gallon of 15% is about USD15. For gas it will cost only no more than USD4.00 (includes lube). So each 8-10 min flight on a 160 glow will set you back about USD2.00. On a gasser it will be like 50c only. So you can see the savings are tremendous once you walk into the 160 sized arena.

Over to you now! Hahahaa ...
Old 08-04-2004, 11:02 AM
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Maudib
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Points well taken Tianci...

But point me to a 9.5 lb 26cc gas powered aerobat... Other than maybe an ultrastick... Even the H9 Funtana with a YS-1.10 is close to 9 lbs... and it's perhaps the lightest built production plane on the planet.

The Chip Hyde Cap-X is one of the lighter ones out there and can take the noseweight of the gasser... but they are coming out at 13 lbs...

Wingloading of 28.53 (not bad at all really) , but underpowered at 13 lbs...

My DV with DA-50 has a wl of 24.36 and is very well powered...

I would like to find a 72" plane that would be a great gas candidate... but I haven't found one... I have a Roto 25 I'm trying out on the CAP-X... but it's not going to be a 3D monster... IMAC yes... waterfalls... no.
Old 08-04-2004, 11:04 AM
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famousdave
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

ORIGINAL: bigsport

I am interested into getting into gas powered aerobatic models, and I am looking for a entry level setup. I don't want to build a $3000 AUD plus model, I just want something around 70-80" wingspan and will fly well on a zenoah G26 or G38 and perform scale aerobatics (IMAC).
I would also like it to be able to do nice flat spins, upright and inverted as well as elevators, harriers (if possible) and still be able to land slowly......

I was thinking of maybe a world models extra or the minicraft cap 232, but I am open to any suggestion/opinions. Any ideas from you guys?

As this will be my first gasser I want to do it right the first time, and not have to learn the art of gas models the hard way.

thanks

For starters - you need to think about a different engine if you want that type of advanced aerobatics performance out of a gas plane.

If you are looking for pure entry level that is a lot of fun and you want to keep it inexpensive - I agree with PTGARCIA - the ultra stick lite 120 is a great choice. It is a blast to fly, will do some pretty cool stuff - it won't do walls, harriers, flat spins or a lot fo true 3D stuff however.

I have the USLite with a G26 - it cost me about $750 with everything - not much more than a glow plane.

To truly do what you are asking will take about $1500 - $2000

It is worth every penny though. As far as I am concerned there is no comparison between glow and gas. After my first gas plane, I got rid of all my glow planes and now fly only gas.



DP
Old 08-04-2004, 11:06 AM
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

ORIGINAL: NOVAflier

Correct me if I am wrong, as I am not a gasser expert, but from what I have read/hear/been told inexpensive gas engines are heavy and could cause weight issues in a light plane such as an ultra stick.

The inexpensive (and yes, heavy) G-26 is a perfect fit in the Ultra stick... its like the plane was designed for it!! I certainly would not put in an aerobatic plane like and edge, extra or cap though....

DP
Old 08-04-2004, 11:31 AM
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tIANci
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Maudib ... only great candidate and affordable is the Lanier Laser 200, it should come in at 9.5 lbs with as 120 4C, hence with perhaps a MVVS160 gasser it will be about 10.5 max. Pretty good for a 72" plane! The EF Yak 68" with a YS110 is only 8.5-9 lbs. Again a 160 gasser there might be a slight overkill.

The MVVS 160 gasser with tuned pipe will haul a 15 lbs plane with no problems, not that it will do unlimited verticals.
Old 08-04-2004, 11:51 AM
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

My MVVS1.6 hovers my fat (12lbs) 24% CA Extra300L at full throttle, Menz s 17x8, 8100RPM. That's the best prop to practice IMAC. I have unlimited vertical with Menz S 18x6 at 7900RPM and 3D stuff.

I am using an incowl Bisson Pitt muffler.

My flying buddy is flying a light CaP- 232 at 10-11 lbs, 72'' and OS160FX. He has unlimited vertical at half throttle. He flies 3 flights and come back to home, 1/2 gallon glow burned. He broke the fuse last weekend in two parts. That's the cost for overpowered plane...

I fly 10 flight, cost nothing of gaz! Ask me if i want an OS160FX? No way man!
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Old 08-04-2004, 11:58 AM
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Go with the great planes patty wagstaff you will not be disapionted in it at all. it is 399.00 put a bme 50 and you can use the included engine mount. Use hitech 645 servos no need for digitals for entry level. this plane fly's awesome and you could have it ready to fly for around 1000.00 - 1500.00 depending how you set it up. This plane will not be a 3d plane but will ply the imac stuff very well.
bryan
Old 08-04-2004, 12:47 PM
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Scooby - what can I say! I am now most convinced to get the MVVS160 gas for my 72" SU 31, that will be about 13 lbs and I do not prop hang.
Old 08-04-2004, 01:04 PM
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Keep it light and you'll enjoy it. 13lbs is heavy for the MVVS1.6 and Bisson muffler. I would not recommend it without tuned pipe in aerobatic plane to get descent performances. With the tuned pipe on the MVVS1.6, you will get over 8000RPM with a Menz S 18x8.

I have found the best MVVS1.6-aerobatic plane combo is the 2m Funtana pro. That plane has already a tunel to fit the pipe under the fuse. You can do 3D all day long with 1.5 thrust/weight ratio.
My extra 300 has a MK bellcrank on the elevator, so, only one JR8411 instead of two servos. !!

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_15...tm.htm#1564028
http://www.desertaircraft.com/
http://www.emhw.de/
Old 08-04-2004, 01:09 PM
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Scooby - I am sure 13 lbs will be okay for general acrobatic flying. The SU 31 will be my first big plane so I am not going to do anything more than flying around doing basic maneuvers (like inverted flight 6" above the ground).
Old 08-04-2004, 01:16 PM
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

Hello,


Choosing a first time gas airplane is challenging with the amout of items offered. We know that all to well before jumping into the 50cc gas ARF market. Good luck and do your homework and Im sure you will make the right choice.

Thanks

John

www.aerotech-rcmodels.com
Old 08-04-2004, 01:20 PM
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

I am a little more fortunate, I will be getting the Black Horse SU 31 120, its a really cheap ARF but very well built for its price. Will cost me like only USD150. Hence, my foray into the gas arena will not be financially exorbitant. Also, the MVVS 160 gas is not very expensive.
Old 08-04-2004, 01:33 PM
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Default RE: Entry Level Gas Aerobat!!

SIG sell a good and light CAP 232ARF. Another cheap solution is the GSP Katana at 199$, chief aircraft.

Pay attention to the wing area. My Extra has only 890sqin and need some speed to land with 31 oz sq/ft wing loading.

So, for the MVVS1.6 check the:
1) plane's weight,
2) Wing area, around 1000 sqin is good

I enjoyed so much the experience that i bought a DA50R last monts

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