I looked at amusement at the thread about the prices going up in RC,

For a hobby with such a great amount of technology, I think the prices are fine.

Would I like to see them lower, duh --- Yes, but we live in a capitalistic world, one where prices are determined by the marketplace.

That is what is great about the USA, we determine the price not some monopoly, I assure you that if any product gets artificially too high, some enterprising group will bring in a product to fill a Gap.

Are YS engines more expensive than an OS, yes they are. Why? unless you have owned a YS, or spoke to someone who has, you wouldn't know that the price of the injection pump more than makes up the discrepancy.

I see no collusion in our sport. When WM offers an ARF for 400, it is worth 400, at least to me it is. YOu think you could build it for less, then go ahead.

You can get Ziroli plans, and cut your wood, and when you are done. you think you saved money? I think not. I think you have something that you are proud of because you built it.

Me, I am happy to buy an ARF, and then put the 20 or so hours into finishing it, and go fly.

I would pay more to be able to put 2 hours into it and go fly.

And if the marketplace sees enough clients like me, then there will be RTFs that just require me to select a frequency, or put in a crystal and fly away.

That is the glory of capitalism. Why does a Yellow Aircraft cost more, my guess is because it is worth more, and the market will bear me out.

When YA decided not to make ARF Warbirds (at about 2,500 each) it was because they felt it wasn't profitable enough for them. So they will only build the Warbird Kit. Anyone else sorry about this? I know I wanted to order a Spitfire ARF, and was willing to spend the dough. It is that good.

My message is simple, prices go up because that is what the market will bear. The fact that the H9 P51 Arf is almost always backordered just bears out the fact that it is great ARF.

Having the ability to share thoughts about anything makes this forum great, but not try to change the laws of physics or the laws of economics in a free society.

Celebrate capitalism, the system works, we are its proof,

End of sermon,

Steve

I agree. I was in this hobby 12 years ago, and I am surprised this time around at the modest prices of quality equipment, such as radios, motors, and last but not least, ARFs.

It seems to me that you get what you pay for, and it pretty much seems reasonable. Entry level ARFs for 70 to 80 bucks? Excellent renderings for 300 to 400 dollars? You're right... You can't build one for that price. Well, you might, but in my world, my recreational time is money, and this factor is often forgotten about by those that try to equate all the parts and materials necessary to bring a kit to the level of completion that most ARFs are.

I am quite pleased with most offerings and prices in all aspects of the R/C plane hobby. I may not be able to afford something that I would like to have, but this does not mean it is "too much money".

Good post,

Dave

I guess what amazes me is the (apparent) large number of modelers who can drop $400-$500 on an engine, a plane twice that and dump it into the ground - only to replace that model with another one within a VERY short period of time!

Guess they earn a LOT more than I do! Lucky devils....

Jerry

Amen Steve!!

They earn a lot more than me too, tailskid! That's why I don't crash my planes!

Okay, where's the wood...?

I was looking over a 1980s mag the other day and found many things that are cheaper these days, mostly in the glow two stroke engines.

I've bought several radios over the years...all Futaba's(this is for comparison only, not saying at all Futaba is better, I just stuck with them).

In 1988 a Futaba 6FG was right at $190 w/servos. This is an AM radio, no bells, no whistles...the only thing it had going for it(I say had,,,it still works fine, that's pretty good value), is the gimble set-up, and the metal box, nicads, and good electronics(very good), no dual rates, no mixing.

In todays market for $190 you can get a totally upgraded FM system with BETTER electronics, dual rates, mixing(minimal yes, but its there). A bit more bang for the buck today, at least feature for feature. We do sacrifice a bit for the plastic, that's it though. Point is for the same $190 you actually get a bit more value in todays market compared to 15yrs ago. Take a step further to the $229 dollar radios.....they didn't even exist then...not available to you and me at that time anyways. That same radio if available then would have been $500 I bet.

I did use radios as a comp here...as they are a real staple in our hobby...all things considered though...the hobby is more affordable today then it was a while ago in my opinion.

Arfs make it seem like things have gone up. You can still get kits for around the same price. Engines get a little more expensive, but hey that helps the R&D guys make em more powerfull, and they last at least 18 years. (STILL HAVE MY FIRST .40 and it still runs, only changed the bushings and seals)
I CG skytiger kit cost $54.oo about 1986 or 87 I think it was. A Tiger II costs $99.99. A candy bar cost $.35 then and $.65 now. Now the candy bar hasn't gotten any better. The Tiger II has, and they both suffer from the same cost of living crapola that makes wages from 50 years ago look like kids allowances of today.
I bought a top of the line 6 channel radio 4 years ago, now you can get 6 channel computer radios for the same price, and 3 times as many features.
Does the hobby get more expensive??? No Life does, the hobby is just part of it.

I was into RC in the mid 70's, and then dropped out until last year.

I was trying to remember when I was thinking about buying a brand new Kraft (Phil Kraft's now defunct company) radio.

I couldn't afford it, If I remember correctly the top of the line was about $400 dollars. It was a 4 channel. That was 1975 dollars when my brand new Olds Tornado cost me about $5,000.

I just bought a 9 channel Futaba Computer Radio for $379. Which does things that I can't believe!!

Guys we are doing good, the axiom is that at best you get what you pay for, and we are getting good stuff at a competitive price.

There also was no internet which keeps prices in line, it gives you an alternative place to search for a better price (if possible).

If you still want to ***** and moan, go ahead, it is your right, for me, I couldn't be happier.

The ARF's I buy are of excellent quality, the radio equipment is magnificient, and the sport is great.

So why not just go outside, stand in the sun, and do a loop?

Steve

I think there is too much mark up, and too little improvement, on servos and electronics and RC in general. Look at what computers have morphed into! I realize that is a much bigger market with business apps, so not really a fair comparison. Still, my 286 in '85 (w/40meg HD upgrade from 20!) compared to my now ancient P2-350, compared to an I can only imagine P4-2K...all of which cost less as the years went by, but got infinately better! RC has gotten a little better, costs about the same. But there is no GREAT incentive for them to improve much because the market is so small, and the competition is nil. I will continue to shop as I usually do, which is comparison shop and try to hold out for a sale, and try to buy the best for less...I think prices will start falling dramatically now that the technology of 6-10 years ago has finally been upgraded in this sport. New tech will still be high$, but good tech prices will continue to fall.

I think there is too much mark up, and too little improvement, on servos and electronics and RC in general. Look at what computers have morphed into! I realize that is a much bigger market with business apps, so not really a fair comparison. Still, my 286 in '85 (w/40meg HD upgrade from 20!) compared to my now ancient P2-350, compared to an I can only imagine P4-2K...all of which cost less as the years went by, but got infinately better! RC has gotten a little better, costs about the same. But there is no GREAT incentive for them to improve much because the market is so small, and the competition is nil. I will continue to shop as I usually do, which is comparison shop and try to hold out for a sale, and try to buy the best for less...I think prices will start falling dramatically now that the technology of 6-10 years ago has finally been upgraded in this sport. New tech will still be high$, but good tech prices will continue to fall.

also helps determine pricing. Look at the market for PCs today compared to even 10 years ago! Exponential increase, hence lower profit margins required to make the same amount of profit! Look at the market for RC gear today compared to 10 years ago. About the same, maybe a little increase. Compare the relative sizes of the markets to the costs of manufacturing and R&D, and we get a pretty good value for our dollars.

BTW, in 1975, I could buy a "high tech" 5-gear bicycle for around $100. Today, a 10-gear cost me over $300, just last year, adn to get a "competition" bike, you're looking at over $1000. In 1969, I bought a Royal 6-channel kit (yes they made/sold radio kits) for about $200. Today that same $200, plus another $30 or so, would got me a 6-channel Futaba radio system, and it was RTF, not even ARF, let alone kit.

I think the "market size" is most likely increasing in the R/C plane hobby. This is due to the fact that a lot of people are not builders, so the relative ease of entry into the hobby today via easy-to-assemble ARFs is a great incentive for those that would not otherwise enter it, to get involved.

Now, I have not been involved for 12 years, (up until 6 months ago) so I don't know how long the trend of well built ARFs has been around, but I do know that it takes time to build the base necessary to bring prices down. This is exactly what happened to PCs. I remember in the early 70s the Commodore VIC 20 computer... It had 20k of memory, and sold for $800! During the 70s, 80s and 90s prices dropped as the market for these "toys" increased. This is 3 decades of demand increase.

Can we expect the same of R/C "toys"? It's obvious, and it is realized with the example of R/C radios listed above. I remember the Kraft radios, the OS/World Engines radios, etc. etc. They were EXPENSIVE considering the relative income of yesterday.

Perhaps the general complaint is ARFs. How long have these quality "new" planes been around? 5 years? If I'm not mistaken, those first ARFs from Hobby Shack in the late 80s and early 90s were crap, and they were $100 plus! Today the $100 plus can get you a much nicer plane, and the $100 is actually worth less than it was then!

Is it motors? Hmm, I seems to recall my first Saito 120 cost over $300. Maybe it was $350? Four months ago I spent $350 on an improved motor, a Saito 150. What's with that? My dollar is worth less, but I get more! Cool deal.

Is this because the market is getting better? Probably. Is labor cheaper? I doubt it. Supply and demand. Demand increases and prices drop. More demand means more equipment to manufacture goods, which makes the process less expensive for the producer, and to compete the manufacture lowers prices, or more importantly fails to raise prices as the value of the dollar decreases.

It's all good people, and it is these things discussed that will continue to fuel the hobby's growth which keeps prices reasonable and well within the budget of the average working Joe. 30 years ago, the "average Joe" couldn't afford a radio, and a "large" motor, and a plane, so he flew Midwest Super Sniffers with Cox .049 motors free flight. I remember, as my father was the "average Joe" then.

Today's average Joe probably has 2.75 flyable R/C planes. That's pretty good I'd say.

Yeah, but getting the .75 of a plane to stay in the air is a real b***h!

I've done it! It was 1.0 planes when it went up, but, things happen!

And then there was the time it was 1.0 planes, and .25 of it (the elevator) went AWOL. Ruined a great K&B .61 that day.

Ummm, the .75 is the part you pick up after flying and go home and fix.....oops arf, I meant replace!

I felt that the price of fuel and covering definitely went up since the 80's or early 90's, by about 50%. I remembered it was like $7 for Monokote, $8 for Ultracote, $9 for 10% fuel. Now it's at least $12+.

In terms of ARF's, I believe the "rate" of labor quality per dollar is better. The labor rate at China haven't increased that much, but I do think that the ARF building process and material control is getter better for these China built ARF's. OK, their hourly rate went up from $0.50 per hour to $0.70 per hour, but multiply that by 50 man-hour, you only see $10 of real difference.

So you're just expecting RC to be immune from inflation?

That's easy just make sure the .75 plane is a flying wing!

Fuel went up due to the EPA and some silly hazmat fees.