Hi Men,

I'm still grieving, so pardon me. This past Saturday was a beautiful day in New Mexico. It was 75 degrees with no wind. A perfect day to fly my new plane done in the Matt Chapman scheme.

Everything is ready. A more experienced pilot takes the controls. Perfect first flight. He makes it look easy. The plane has no bad tendicies even with 13 extra oz in the nose. Does not have unlimited vertical even with the Saito 180 and a 16/8 prop. Perfect take off and landing though.

Now it's my turn. Wobbly take off, but she's up and flying. Trying to keep it easy. One stall turn and the rest of the flight is nothing but easy turns and a couple of low speed passes. Now for the trouble, I was making a left turn too slow. It stalls and starts spinning to mother earth. I could not react quick enough.........

Lesson learned, keep flying speed up, especially on big planes. My biggest plane prior to that was a four star 40. Well off to get another.

Any other tips would be great.

Thanks , Still Grieving,
Dan

Hi Dan!

We've all been there... not fun, not fun at all. You'll do great with the next one... so you hang in there, you hear? :sunsmiley

WELL FROM ROSSWELL, IT WEREN'T YOU BRO, IT WERE THEM YEA, YOU KNOW WHO I MEAN. THE SAME ONES AROUND HERE AROUND AREA 51..

SORRY, I saw a friend put one in the same exact way. and he had been flying it much longer than you.

He did give me the fuselage though. didn't hurt it at all. just tore the wings off and ripped them up.

don't give up! try again.

RON in NEVADA

I know someone that had the same exact thing happen. He said he was 4 mistakes highwhen he stalled and couldn't pullout of a spin. What should one do to pull out of a spin?


Pat

Sometimes you need to use reverse rudder and down elevator. But, I think alot of these planes would be saved by neutralizing the elevator and getting on the power. I oftentimes see the elevator being yanked up and no power coming on... that is a surefire way to keep it in a stall and have it spin all the way in. You must get the wings flying again.

Thanks alot. I have to be ready for my first flight in a few weeks.

pat

SHSSSSSSSSH ! No one is supposed to know about THEM!

Yes, yes and more yes. The wing has to be unloaded. Only way to do this is to get off the elevator.

Sorry for your loss. I did the same thing with my spacewalker turning on final approach. I was able to rebuild her but lost her to a heavy crosswind gust dispite adding rudder and trying to keep the windward wingtip down. Lesson learned don't fly in weather beyond the plane and your skills. Take care, Pete

Dan, sorry to hear about your loss. Don't give up. The bigger planes are not only easier to fly but MUCH more fun. The only thing you have to be aware of is that the closer they get to full size, the more they will act like full size aircraft (and the more altitude you need to recover from a stall). Use your power to control your descent right until the plane is on the ground. We all have gotten used to cutting the power on .40 size ships on downwind and gliding them onto the ground. Once you get used to managing the power and and controlling airspeed you will never go back to small planes. Good luck, cbk

I feel your pain. I did the same thing back in Oct 2001 with the h9 cap. Sounds like we were doing the same thing. I was on my final turn towards the runway and it just fell out of the sky.

I didn't have enough speed going into the turn and I think the engine died too. It smashed the fuse up pretty good. I eventually fixed it and bought a new wing.

Took it up again after about two months and crashed it again on my third flight. This time it wasn't because of a stall. The engine died again and I didn't have enough speed to turn back to the runway. It hit a tree at low speed. Smashed the wing hard. I fixed it again.

So far two strikes...one more then I'm out.

In the third re-incarnation of the plane I took out the unreliable engine and replaced it with an brand spanking new OS 160. I'm convinced that lighter flies better (especially with this plane) so I'm trying to make it as light as possible.

I lost half a pound switching from the Moki 180 to the OS 160. I'm dremeling out all the uneccessary wood (enlarged the lightening holes in the ailerons, driling holes everywhere) and took out the foam that is on top of the servo tray. I placed an order for Carbon Fiber landing gear as well as a Dave Patrick tailwheel set. Took off the wheel pants.

In my original setup the plane weighed 13.5 pounds. I'm shooting for 12 pounds with this new setup. Hopefully the tip stall characteristics won't be as bad.

I haven't flown it yet as I'm waiting for better weather here in NY.

Sorry about the plane. I saw the same thing happen last weekend. The pilot has been flying about 1 year, and was flying an Extra (80" span). He asked how to spin it, and did just what he was told. We then heard him yell, and looked to see him just looking at his radio. I went over, and he said "it would not stop spinning, I gave it full power, and full up, but it kept going down"

totaled the plane, and he now knows what he did wrong (I think).

Bad thing is, he is a full scale pilot, with his own plane. But they don't teach spins anymore either.

I hope this doesn't jinx me, I just flew (did not land it) my first big plane Sat afternoon (Midwest Giles 202 27% with YS 120). It was great, but it is not too stable slow. I tried that once (8 mistakes hi). Hope to get to start landing it this weekend.

Les

Hey guys,

I appreciate all the sympathy. You know it helps get through the grieving process.

I'll also take the hints and put them in the back of my mind. Hopefully, I'll be able to pull them up when I need them.

BTW, the wife is also grieving, but it's not due to the loss of the plane. It's because she see's dollar signs.


Can I get an Amen?

Anyway, I have one on order from Jeremy Steinmueller. Let's try it again.

Dan

Nah, no amens!! Read my signature!!! Helps a lot!!

I am sorry for your plane...but, it does speak of the way the hobby has progressed...15 years ago, when I got into the hobby, 1/4 scale was THE big ones, and took years to be ready for one!! Now, it's people's 2nd plane. It took me 8 years, and probably 20 planes, to progress to 1/4 scale, by then I knew how to build, how to fly, and get out of trouble, and motors, and servos, and radios, and coverings, and controls, and how to get out of stalls, and spins, and I knew throttle control...you get the picture...

NOW, quite a few pilots have the 1/4 scale as their 2nd plane...they haven't built it, haven't learned the hard way, how to fly, and expect instant gratification....and 1/4 scale is no longer the "big boys" as it once was...

A lot of people haven't learned the 'finesse' that a big plane takes, to keep it in the air...they haven't learned how to react to a plane that has to have pretty good airspeed to stay up, and they haven't learned the reflexes that it takes to fly a giant...but the hobby manufacturers have put these giants in their hands, often long before they are ready for them...it's not all the hobby manufacturers fault - when I first started, I could hardly dream of spending the money for a giant! Now, it's just a few bucks, by comparison....

Gone are the days of learning by a long, involved process...now it's learning by "instant experience"...got the $$$'s, flown a bit, and it's readily available....

The Cap is a great flyer...keep the airspeed up, have nimble fingers, progress to the skill to fly it, and it's NO problem...

working on my 33% Extra now, I will have $4,000 or so in it, but I won't be afraid to fly it, because I paid my dues, and have total confidence in my skills....

I only say this all, because the first post said a more experienced pilot took it up first, great takeoff and landing...so the plane flies great. I urge everyone, to take stock of your skills, and take the longer road to learn to fly your planes...don't be so anxious to fly the rip-snorting, high performance planes, until you have the experience to do so...you will be MUCH happier, and richer in the long run!!!!

Very Wise man. I been in the hobby 25 yrs and I see it all the time.

rcav8or told it like it is. The H9 cap 232 1/4 scale is not the best choice for ones first giant scale plane. I think too many folks jumped on this particular ARF because of the "fire-sale" by Horizon. Never mind if I really don't have the skill to fly it, I'll buy it anyway because they are practically giving them away. Problem is, when it is flight ready we are looking at an investment of $800 to $1000 or more, depending on the engine, radio equip, and accessories used. That is a pretty hard hit to take just because we couldn't pass up a $200 bargain, even though we lacked the skill to properly and safely control our "bargain".

I think there is a difference between our perceived abilities and our actual abilities.

Most "normal" people (including me) take years of sport flying to get proficient at managing all four controls in all situations on even a high wing simi symm model. (yea, yea, I know someone out there did it in 4 flights). I have been convienced that in order to MASTER all kinds of situations will take me years and lots of fuel.

I went from a 4*60 to a 60 sized Extra and tip stalled landing the very first time! First dead stick and I tip stalled it again! Now I have learned the difference between flying on the wing and on the prop.

Marcus

This is exactly why I've been putting off flying this plane even though I'd bought two of them a while back - I simply don't trust my dumb thumbs just yet. I plan on using the GP 1/4 Spacewalker I'm assemblying to practice. I figure the SW is bigger than most planes I'm used to but not TOO big.

Even then, I fully expect to crash my first H9 CAP, which partially explains why I bought two. I faithfully go by the motto:

Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

So pick up all the broken pieces and your spirit, and let's have another go at it! Crashing is an integral part of the hobby. It ain't no fun, but as long as you learned something from it, it is a positive thing in the long run. Look at it this way: better to learn not to tip-stall on a $200 1/4 CAP now than on a $2000 50% Extra later, yes?

Here's some suggestions veteran pilot Chris Brewer (GSAL) gave on this plane, and it's tendencies...

"I would first check the incidence of the wings and then check for warps. It's not difficult to glue the wings together misaligned. I've owned a couple of these and they all flew very well. My most recent one came with warped wings. I had 3 degrees of washout in the right tip and 1.5 degrees of wash-in in the left. Every time I pulled a "harrier" or "wall" it'd snap left. I set the wing tips at 0 degrees relative to the root by twisting them, and then shrinking out the wrinkles with the heat gun. It took 6 or 7 times with each panel but it was well worth it.
You should also check that your elevator halves are moving symmetrically. They'll produce a roll if one side is moving faster/further than the other.
I don't think that it's the CG, I think that there's something going on with the wing. My plane is 12 lb. with 45+ degrees of deflection on the elevator, balances at 45% of the chord and doesn't snap..."

and he further added:

"You
may want to tell him that a perfectly straight wing is the most critical issue
here but that the lighter the plane is the less severe the snap will be. My
flying buddy had a H9 with a Moki 1.8 (mine's a 2.1) that was a pound lighter,
crooked as hell but flew just as well! Your guy could add 1/2 degree of
washout and never worry about snap/spin's. The only downside would be a mushy
snaproll..."

Hope this helps....

Unfortunatly for most, the above is all true. The other point to keep in mind is the fact you have to practice these skills or you loose them over time.

I just left a club (long story) where I was President. This past year we got a new field and had to clear it, prepare it, install a runway, pits, etc. Needless to say, I went out after laying off flying for several months and my skills were, ah, less than what they were.

Funny thing is, I'm a full scale pilot and know you have to get stick time to stay proficient. That's why private pilots have BFR's, and the big boys (ATP's) are checked in type every six months or so - right ?

Glad I have RealFlight or I would be in big trouble. I didn't auger anything in the day I flew again; but that is because I was lucky that day ! :stupid: I did loose a few more hairs though !

AcroFlyer

Good post Roger....clear, understandable, and rings true. JeffC and I began flying in the mid eighties with .25, .40, and .049-sized planes. We might have gone through several hundred kits in the first few years (no joke), but that experience has been invaluable. Understanding flight characteristics of all sorts of planes, handling weather conditions, no-thinking reflex/reaction to save planes from death, etc.....these all come from flying experience as you say (and not from sims).

It wasn't until last year that we migrated towards 1/4 scale ships....and ARFs. ARF manufacturing, as we all know, has matured dramatically over the past few years and that has allowed us access to decent flying and easy building planes. If a Yellow or H9 1/4 scale CAP is now the 3rd plane of choice, great...just don't fly near the pits (ha!).

For a CAP 232 crash debris field video, check this out:
http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia...bris_crash.mov

Jeff was doing knife-edge loops....and on the beginning of the second loop, the plane lost airspeed and snapped....twice (because we were in 3D rates)...and with only 40' to recover...forget it! [Note: the video is big, 10mbs and is a little blocky because of the compression....]

Keep on flying Dan - it happens to all of us!

-Juhan

The Cap 232 design is "tip stalling" at it's finest. A double tapered wing of limited size (sq. in. area) is just asking for trouble.

Spend a couple of bucks more and get a Dave Patrick Ultimate. Goes together easy, flys great with a 120 - 160 engine (it does "assemble" slightly tail heavy so you can put the extra eng weight to good use) This plane will do every manuver in the book yet it lands like a SIG LT40 trainer. I'm a "bank-and-yank" kind of pilot (pile - it) and I now have people applauding my landings.

After carefully reading the posts in this thread my overall impression is that EVERYONE can learn from reading it.
Start small and practice, practice, practice. Move up a little larger and practice, practice, practice. Move up bigger yet and practice, practice, practice.
We all get that excited, nervous feeling when first flying a new plane but seem to forget to respect its size and flight characteristics. When your knees are knocking and your hands are shaking with that new plane in the sky and it suddenly does something unpredicted; what do we do? We fall back on our previous flight experience that may not save that new model.
I admit, like tkrash, I'm a bank-and-yank kind o' flyer. I am learning that this is NOT the way to fly a large fully aerobatic model! If you don't respect that airframe it will teach you to respect it when you're back in your basement rebuilding or on the phone re-ordering.

As far as recovering from a spin, what I've been doing when all else fails is give a blast of power with down elevator. Getting that nose pointed down and picking up airspeed so the plane can 'fly' is what works for me. When doing manouvers like spins, tumbles, etc. remember that your plane is not flying. It is falling.
Controlling chaos is not always easy!

Best of luck to all,
Jeff

Sorry man, thanks for the heads up.

Had the same trouble with an Extra 300. Crunched it twice trying to float it in for a landing. Hopefully i have learend my lesson, so i won't crunch my new Cap.

I'm quite sure no amout of experience with Trainers or Sticks, or just about anything else will prepair someone for these wicked stalls. Always a completely new experience for anyone who hasn't flown one of these.

curious about having flaperons go slightly up for landings to create a tiny bit of washout. anyone try this? opinions? speculations?


Shmo

I feel your pain. I really do.

I also jumped on the $200 H9 Cap deal as an intro to big planes; bought two. One is for Spare Parts.

I also figured that the Cap wouldn't be the best intro to big planes, so I also picked up an Ultra Stick 120. This way, I can upgrade my reflexes on a low cost, low maintanence bird before I put the Cap together.