guver

My Feedback: (325)

This is a dumb title I know. I'm flying 4 channel trainers finally instead of 3 channels. The question I have is this:

Is one better to attempt to be an expert or master a easier plane and try moves with it (that the plane is nearly incapable , barely capable, or pretty much at it's limt) OR is one better off having a better more capable plane and flying below it's capabilities until getting better?

Another way to ask this: Which should outclass (the pilot or the plane) I've been shy away from getting even sport planes or midwing or low wing because of all the unsuccess of new pilots. I'm not saying that I have "mastered" all my high wing planes , but I think I will learn faster with a more capable plane even if I have to fly it very carefully at first.

I'm not sure how to describe my skill level without a video , but I just have learned a few days ago to do a roll.

What do you think? Start flying a much sportier plane OR continue on with my "easy" planes. (I do have the Hobbico Switch in the box yet) I could do a few flights with the wing up high and then put the wing in the middle. This is what the switch is all about supposedly.

JH313

What kind of planes do you fly now? What trainer? The switch seems like a great idea though.

Edwin

My Feedback: (2)

You can probably do more than a roll with the plane you have. Learn to use the rudder first. Learn to do all your menuvers with the rudder instead of flying right stick dominant. Fly figure 8's using the rudder and using the aileron to control your bank. You should be able to learn the basic aerobatics like, roll, loop, stall turn, inverted flight, spin (if the plane can do it). Fly it till you're bored, then move on up. I usually recommend an ugly stick to my students that progress on. Some have chosen a chipmunk, maybe an extra (40 or 60 sized) something along that line. All have really enjoyed the basic aerobatics on next step planes. Just remember, they are aerobatic because they are more unstable than your trainer. You might crash it right away, but dont let that discourage you. You're moving on to the next step. Get another and get back in the saddle again. These planes are going to be a lot more squirly but a lot of fun once you master them. I would suggest toning down the throws a bit till you get used to that step. Then add more throw as you improve. Crawl, walk, then run. This is the fun part.
Edwin

JH313

If you fly 40, look at the escapade. A friend at the field let me fly his and it was great. If you don't think you're ready for that, look at an avistar. I will maiden my own this weekend, and if you're interested, I will let you know how it goes.
Jacob

malthepal

My Feedback: (1)

I flew my avistar trainer all the time until fellow flyers told me I was beyond it. I had increased the throw on the control surfaces, learned to mix in rudder, fly inverted and do basic acrobatics. I still have the avistar in my hangar and its the first one out. I only have a few years under my belt but its nice to get the yips out with the avistar and then move onto the next one. My next one bytheway, was a .60 extra that was built by a friend. I guess what I am saying is: fly the daylights out of your trainer until you don't get the nerves twitching. Then move up.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Not all trainer type of planes are very good at stunts, one of my old students was learning stunts this year before he left for the summer or our hot season. 6 months is a log time to be away from flying. His number one plane for learning is the Pulse 60, good plane. When he came back here I took him out with a trainer and buddy box. Stunts he couldn't do with it. I can fly the basic with it without problems, Ugly but it will do the pattern. My second/learning plane was the Up-Roar 40, kit built. Great little learning tool. At the price and ease of building it didn't mater how much harm it came to, I could build another in a couple of days.

Mr67Stang

The Hobico Avistar (mentioned), the the Hangar 9 Arrow and the world models Sky Raider Mach 1 are the hotrods of the 40 sized trainers. What do they all have in common that traditional trainers do not? Simi-semetric airfoils (wings). If you comfortable with your current plane you can move to one of these. I feel most people can skip them and go to a sport trainer like the World Models Skyraider Mach 2 (a low wing variant with a shorter wing span for snappier rolls). As I progress I like to hit the simulator. If you practice a manouver enough on the simulator you build muscle memory. With muscle memory in your thumbs the manouver will be easier out at the feild. Always start high when working on a new manouver in the event that you need some recovery altitude. Good luck and have fun with it.

Charlie P.

There's a lot you can learn on a trainer.  Are your loops held to end at the same altitude you began with?  Can you do a 1/2 roll and hold level & inverted flight?  Can you do a Split-S and an Immelman?

Up the control throws 25% and it will become much more sensitive. 

I'd highly recommend a Big Stik 40 or similar shoulder wing model for a second plane. 

Lnewqban

Why not trying mastering both types of airplanes at the same time?

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_97...tm.htm#9747193

http://masportaviator.com/category/a...ght-maneuvers/

http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/...some_pilot.htm

jester_s1

My thinking is to get off the trainer as soon as you can, assuming finances allow. If you can takeoff and fly around and land without scaring yourself, you're ready. A stick can be just as docile as a trainer with the throws down and CG forward. The difference will be that it just goes where you point it- little reaction to the wind, no self-righting, and much less roll coupling. Basic maneuvers are way easier with a mild sport plane than with a trainer, as are landings and handling the wind. Sport planes aren't squirrely at all unless they are set up to be, so get an experienced pilot to fly your trainer then set the throws on your sport plane to be similar, then have at it. A few choices to consider are any stick (ugly stick, ultra stick, etc), Tiger 2 or Tiger 60 (used since I heard they aren't available for now), Sig 4 Star, or just about any other lightly loaded plane with a straight wing. Setup is a huge part of the flying characteristics of any plane, so if you have some help with the initial flight you'll do fine.

N429EM

A trainer should be capable of all basic maneuvers. If not, have an experienced r/c pilot try them, to see if the plane is really capable, or possibly set up incorrectly. If the plane checks out, you may need more instruction.

At our club, we have held competitions using trainers and inexpensive sport planes, in a fun-type pattern contest. Most of the planes listed above were used, ie. the Avistar, Sky Raider Mach 1, among others, all performed the Sportsman Pattern sequences. A NEXStar has even been used. Doesn't like inverted, but it will do it.

Keep practicing, and good luck.

EJ

gene6029

Like most have said above, you can do alot with a trainer, depending on what trainer you have. For something different, or a second model, i'd recommend a fun fly type model, ( mojo ) or similar. You'll learn to do things you would be hard pressed to do with your trainer. Years ago i thought i was above my trainer & was getting bored with it. One of the club hot shots took it from me and did rolling circles with it at eye level & some other stuff i still cant do today! [>:] I still have a trainer in my fleet & dust it off every now & then...Gene

MajorTomski

When I was at your stage, I complained to my mentor that I needed to have a "better" plane than my .46 powered Kadet LT40. He took the transmitter out of my hands and proceded to do rolling circles to the right to the left rolling in and rolling out. He handed the transmitter back and said "Aint the plane."

Getting a "sportier" plane than a trainer will make learning aerobatics easier. Doing aerobatics well with a trainer will make you a much better pilot.

The SWITCH in the mid wing position is an EXCELLENT pattern trainer it will fly for 11 minutes and it will knife edge. It has only two drawbacks, the landing gear is sort of flimsy and bends easily, the supertiger lipo's are heavy for what you get. I've replaced mine with the batts used in the parkzone T-28. Saves a couple of ounces and the perfomance goes up a bit.

I'd go with your original plan and start with the high wing switch then switch. Be prepared to add a LOT of down trim when you reconfigure to the mid wing set up.

MTC YMMV
Tom been flying a switch for over a year now.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...1313507&page=5

acdii

E-flite T-34 Mentor PTS is also a good choice. As its name says, its a progressive trainer. Right out of the box it flies nice, slow, very easy to take off and land, preset with dual rates if you get the RTF, which comes with the DX6i radio. Very capable of aerobatics, and once you master it at the trainer level, removing the wing droops ups its performance window.

 It can be converted to glow with a few minor changes and some fuel proofing.

 It was my first choice as a plane, but after putting it together I was afraid of damaging it because it looked soo good, so I got an Apprentice 15e to do my first flights with a normal sized rc plane. I flew the Ultra Micros first to get my wings, but those planes you dont really take off and land the same as the larger ones. After about 10 flights on the Apprentice to get my takeoffs and landings down, I finally maidened the T-34, and it is very easy to fly.  I have several good flights including 2 dead stick landings on it and really enjoy flying it.

Not only does it look good, it flies good, and its a trainer, just not the ones most people think of when trainer is mentioned.

jester_s1

The reason I say to get off of the trainer ASAP is simply that a trainer has some aerodynamic compromises that actually make if fly worse in order to make it more self-correcting. Flying one is like riding a bike with training wheels. Everyone I've ever seen make the initial transition to sport plane (including myself) has said that the sport plane flies better. So unless you need the self-righting characteristics, why not fly the plane that is easier to handle?

jetmech05

I think there is one basic manuver you must master to start to get good and a trainer is perfect for it....if you can master this move with a trainer then you can do this move on any airplane at will....the manuver is inverted flight....don't just roll her over on her back and say there you go....no fly the whole pattern inverted.....Word of caution though.....when inverted and in doubt roll out.....always roll out of inverted flight...don't loop out....the ground will be alot closer than you think....I've seen a couple of good crashes from guys looping out of inverted flight....Good Luck....oh yea the ailerons..are the same inverted

blueapplepaste

My Feedback: (5)

Yeah, but it can make learning aerobatics a lot more frustrating telling someone it can be done on a trainer. For that matter its like saying you can carve wood with a plastic spoon, you could do it, but why use the wrong tools? It can be done, but its harder.

Same thing with planes. Once you can take off and land in various conditions (windy, gusty, dead calm, cross wind) can do the basics fairly well can recover, etc all successfully, then move on. It's fun seeing what all a trainer can do, but for learning those things, its hard.

I think a Stik plane or a 4*40 or Goldberg Tiger would be excellent to move on to.

RealFly

Great question. Now my background is that I have been flying about 2.5 years. I progressed from a NextStar in that time to a EF Yak 54 with a 110" wing span. I have flow warbirds, scale, and aerobatic planes. Once you are done basic manuevers such as landing, taking off, rolls, loops, and a foray into inverted flight you will get nothing else from a trainer. That is if you do it correctly. Are you using your rudder when landing, can you do a coordinated turn, can you land from right to left equally as well as left to right? If the answer is yes, move on. If the answer is no than you will save a lot of frustration and likely money by sticking with the trainer until you have the above down where you are successful at least 8 out of 10 times. Learn to place the plane where you want it and not just react to where it goes.

I would suggest a second plane that is a tail dragger, mid-wing or low wing, and something set up with low and high rates. Learn the technique of a tail-dragger and then start all over again practicing some of the basics. This will serve you well as you move up into other planes. I like as a second plane that is inexpensive - the Escapade.

Last, fly with a point in mind. My flying has improved greatly by practicing IMAC maneuvers. Why, because you are flying with the intent of placing the plane where you want. Get to be good at landing and taking off - make it look good and the rest will come. Get rid of the trainer as soon as you can as most of the larger scale and aerobatic planes won't glide for a mile once you cut power. So there is yet another learning curve...If you want shoot me a PM as its all still fresh to me...

MetallicaJunkie

jump in the fire... start progressing and getting into more advanced models when youve mastered your current air craft.


dont be like me and be scared.... i limited myself to strictly glow planes/sport planes for 15 years till i decided to get into more advanced models... i still fly glow sometimes but gas is where it at IMO

OliverJacob

My Feedback: (12)

If your trainer is too boring, get a low wing trainer. My second plane was a SIG 4 star .40 with a 4 stroke, very nice to fly and predictable, I had lots of fun with this and learned a lot with this plane. Until some day a tree ate it.
You should definitely get something different if you are ready for it. The high wing trainer is designed to fly straight and level, do shallow turns. Flying inverted is rather awkward.

guver

My Feedback: (325)

I appreciate all these well expressed opinions. I hadn't responded because I have been pondering and practicing more and more. I did fly the switch only once (in high wing position to start) , but one of the magnets in the motor came loose so it was grounded. The wind/weather has made it very slow to progress.

I am very stuck on inverted flight , can't seem to do very well. I can't even make a lap yet. I am practicing , but can only fly a straight and level line inverted for right now. You know one thing that I didn't think about is that I have so many planes that I'm not flying any one of them over and over (like I did when I started) I got pretty good at the little albatross because that's all I had. I got good at the flylite because I parked the albatross and that's all I flew. I have so many high wing planes that most flights are maiden or "test" flights. I have to stop that.

I think I will concentrate on the switch and maybe just a few others for now to get better and better. I'm sure I'll do better at inverted with the wing in low position and a few other planes that I have like the Cox mini extra 300 and the Flyzone corvalis.

I flew nearly every day this summer, but now the weather and daylight has limited me to fly on weekend only. Lots of wind has got me down many days too.

Here's what's in the stable right now.

4' Piper moved the CG back and can fly it pretty good.
SkyFly Max ready to fly and am pretty good with it. Best plane for me to do inverted flight and rolls.
Skyfly2 new setup, ready to test.
Switch motor repaired and ready for 2nd flight w/ high wing.
3' Piper converted to BL and ready to test.
2' Piper is overpower and hard to fly , ready for 3rd flight.
Nexstar mini , removed the trainer flaps and ready for 3rd flight.
Sensei ready to fly , pretty good at it.
Cessna 182 ready for 2nd flight, but need to straigten motor shaft.
Falcon need to move CG back and ready for 3rd flight.
Cox skyranger ready to maiden.
Cox extra 300 ready to maiden.

My 3 planes that I had the most experience on have been retired. []

AA5BY

A lot of good advice given in the responses, so I've little to add other than punctuate some of the advice as very worthy. I agree strongly with the advice to go with a stick. The reasons are.

Sticks are simple planes mechanically without the issues of cowl, canopy and wheel pants, etc. , thus they allow focus on flight skills rather than what it takes to keep them air worthy. I also agree with the advice to go tail dragger for the same reason.

Just as one would not play baseball with a hockey stick, one should learn aerobatics with a plane designed for aerobatics. It should have no dihedral and a symmetrical air foil. The guy who showed he could do rolling circles with a trainer to suggest it was all about pilot skill was wrongheaded in his statement. Aerobatics is not all about skills... it is as much about hardware so having an aerobatic designed plane is part of it.

You should not be fighting inherent stability when learning aerobatics. You should not be fighting wind forces on a plane with dihedral. For this reason, I wouldn't recommend any sport plane with either dihedral or a non symmetrical wing. Does this mean that some designs with those qualities won't do aerobatics... of course not, but they are harder to do and thus harder to train on.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

And if you can find Ed Moormans Teach Yourself Aerobatics clip out cards from when he was writing for RC Report Magazine it will help a lot in the learning process. RCR is an on line magazine now and I don't know if you can get these training aids from them or not. Someone at your field may have them. Ed is also a big fan of the Stick.

JeffinTD

A couple planes in the aerobatic class I have and like are the eflite Advance (built as a taildragger) and the wingsmaker Handy
King.

Inverted and Cuban 8s I can do fine on my Apprentice, but it is easier on the Advance. It is intended to be a first low wing plane, and doesn't seem to have any bad habits, though knife edge and upright flat spin- not so much.

On windy days, a bunch of folks would break out Handymans. They seem to do any manuver, are inexpensive and easy to repair.

When the bigger handyking came out, I got that one since I had batteries and and a speed control on hand (3300 4 cell 25c).

Much touchier than the Advance, but with mellow rates/expo I'm doing ok. I expect it will be a good platform for learning aerobatics.

scooterinvegas

My Feedback: (1)

I would stick with the high wing till someone asks you if your tiring to brake it.

You can go up in power a little. I have a 40 size trainer with a OS 46AX and its a blast to fly.