How do you teach?
02-18-2012 | 05:13 PM
#26
RE: How do you teach?
First to mike109 I apologize for the minor hijack of your thread. I promise any further posts will be on topic and will only expand on details of how I teach. An on that topic, the introduction to my training course for the TORKS in OKC was published as a lead article in the AMA Safety column several years ago. I did not submit it. Someone else thought it was so valuable that it was published nationally.
And to Mr. Cain, now you add further insult to injury.
Instead of asking, even off line, for a clarification of what I teach and how I teach YOU some how made a quantum leap of illogic from my original post and to my follow-up post again accusing me in front of this whole forum, of being an incompetent idiot teaching more incompetent dangerous idiot airplane drivers.
You choose to take your personal experience and somehow transfer the failure of someone else, again not ever having met me, or my students or even owe me the courtesy of asking what exactly do I teach.
Yet in spite of my pathetic, unsafe methods my students can, before they are turned loose to terrify society;
Take off and perform greaser landings (not near crash arrivals) on the CENTERLINE of a 32x250 foot runway. They can do that in either direction and with a 90 degree crosswind from either direction. And in winds up to 16 knots. This is after all Oklahoma, you wait for a calm day and you’ll never fly!
The can and do consecutive loops, consecutive rolls; identify an aerodynamic stall and enter and recover from a spin (if their plane will actually spin)
They do all this by staying east of an AMA standard zero line that is 50 feet from the pits and the spectators, and while staying north and clear of one of the busiest jogging trails in Oklahoma City.
They learn to start and set their engines in secure stands and they shut down the engine before taxing into the pits.
Just because I don’t boar them to death with hours of aerodynamic theory doesn’t mean they don’t GET the essentials of why a plane behaves that way.
I’ll put the safe flying skills and safety record of my club up against ANYONE in District 8 and I’ll bet we have a better track record.
Again I am insulted that you allow your own prejudice to color (quite wrongly and repeatedly) what I have stated above.
And to Mr. Cain, now you add further insult to injury.
Instead of asking, even off line, for a clarification of what I teach and how I teach YOU some how made a quantum leap of illogic from my original post and to my follow-up post again accusing me in front of this whole forum, of being an incompetent idiot teaching more incompetent dangerous idiot airplane drivers.
You choose to take your personal experience and somehow transfer the failure of someone else, again not ever having met me, or my students or even owe me the courtesy of asking what exactly do I teach.
Yet in spite of my pathetic, unsafe methods my students can, before they are turned loose to terrify society;
Take off and perform greaser landings (not near crash arrivals) on the CENTERLINE of a 32x250 foot runway. They can do that in either direction and with a 90 degree crosswind from either direction. And in winds up to 16 knots. This is after all Oklahoma, you wait for a calm day and you’ll never fly!
The can and do consecutive loops, consecutive rolls; identify an aerodynamic stall and enter and recover from a spin (if their plane will actually spin)
They do all this by staying east of an AMA standard zero line that is 50 feet from the pits and the spectators, and while staying north and clear of one of the busiest jogging trails in Oklahoma City.
They learn to start and set their engines in secure stands and they shut down the engine before taxing into the pits.
Just because I don’t boar them to death with hours of aerodynamic theory doesn’t mean they don’t GET the essentials of why a plane behaves that way.
I’ll put the safe flying skills and safety record of my club up against ANYONE in District 8 and I’ll bet we have a better track record.
Again I am insulted that you allow your own prejudice to color (quite wrongly and repeatedly) what I have stated above.
02-19-2012 | 06:40 AM
#28
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RE: How do you teach?
ORIGINAL: goirish
I have been working with an older gentleman that is somewhat mentally handicapped and we have been at it for over a year. Not sure he will ever solo, but he is fun to work with. He tries very hard but just can't seem to understand why the plane does what it does. We will be flying and all of a sudden he will say ''you got it'' I'll Say ''no I don't have, you have it'' Or, he will be flying that be looking at the TX instead of the plane. but I will keep working with him as he is such a nice guy., Who knows, maybe the next time out will be the time that everything clicks. We go out about 3 times a week He has his own plane, tower hobby 60 with a 60 super tigre.
I have been working with an older gentleman that is somewhat mentally handicapped and we have been at it for over a year. Not sure he will ever solo, but he is fun to work with. He tries very hard but just can't seem to understand why the plane does what it does. We will be flying and all of a sudden he will say ''you got it'' I'll Say ''no I don't have, you have it'' Or, he will be flying that be looking at the TX instead of the plane. but I will keep working with him as he is such a nice guy., Who knows, maybe the next time out will be the time that everything clicks. We go out about 3 times a week He has his own plane, tower hobby 60 with a 60 super tigre.
I've drifted off a few times during flight where my attention was taken off the plane. Once was on my first flight where I looked behind me , and once while I was "showing off" or talking with my student. I lost the plane very high up , but luckily He had it in focus. I told him "You just taught me my first lesson" We laughed.
02-19-2012 | 03:16 PM
#29
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RE: How do you teach?
IMO it takes a special breed of individual to be an instructor and they are few in numbers. I learned to fly on gliders with an instructor who also happened to be a full scale glider pilot. Most if not all instructors in our hobby are not what the title implies and relay nothing to their students. My advice is to watch how others fly and those approaching the emulation of full scale flight are the ones you seek out for instruction. If helicopters are your choice be warned there are no instructors and your on your own.
02-19-2012 | 03:42 PM
#30
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RE: How do you teach?
I teach basic 2 channel, single stick flight with powered gliders before moving the student up to flying his own 4 channel trainer.
By the time my students are learning 4 channel flight they are already bored to tears with 2 channel gliders.
In most cases, the transition goes very quickly.
By the time my students are learning 4 channel flight they are already bored to tears with 2 channel gliders.
In most cases, the transition goes very quickly.
02-19-2012 | 04:00 PM
#31
Senior Member
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RE: How do you teach?
ORIGINAL: cfircav8r
The best way to teach is to have a lesson in mind before each flight. Start with a little theory, before the flight, that will pertain to your air work. How a plane turns, ie: some of the wings lift is used to turn the plane causing the need for increased up elevator to compensate...etc, before starting a flight of figure eights. If you use this method you will not drag them down with long hours of theory and they will get all the basics by the time they are ready to solo. Don't forget to occasionally revisit some of the more difficult areas, and It is also helpful to present different scenarios and ask what the correct fix would be to see if they understand the concepts.
P.S.
I would add stalls and unusual attitude recovery as somone pointed out earlier
The best way to teach is to have a lesson in mind before each flight. Start with a little theory, before the flight, that will pertain to your air work. How a plane turns, ie: some of the wings lift is used to turn the plane causing the need for increased up elevator to compensate...etc, before starting a flight of figure eights. If you use this method you will not drag them down with long hours of theory and they will get all the basics by the time they are ready to solo. Don't forget to occasionally revisit some of the more difficult areas, and It is also helpful to present different scenarios and ask what the correct fix would be to see if they understand the concepts.
P.S.
I would add stalls and unusual attitude recovery as somone pointed out earlier
02-19-2012 | 04:09 PM
#32
Senior Member
My Feedback: (325)
RE: How do you teach?
ORIGINAL: CGRetired
Ok for electric. There is a bit more to learn with glow.
However, regardless of glow or electric, you forgot a thorough pre-flight check.
''Plane setup and some mechanics'' just doesn't cut it. A complete pre-flight is very important. This includes linkage, battery, tight screws, servo binds (if exists) must be fixed, control orientation (does the rudder, elevator, throttle, and aileron do what you intended them to do.. rudder stick to the right - rudder moves to the right.. and so on) followed by a real good range check.
Then, after a successful pre-flight, the initial or maiden flight by someone that knows what's going on is really important. He/she will most likely make sure trims are within range (if not, should be able to land so checks can be made..) and if they are, make the appropriate trims for straight and level flight (hands off) for that throttle setting, then be able to explain and demonstrate the differences with throttle settings on straight and leve flight.
There is so much to be done on the initial or maiden flights, especially for training a beginner that s simple check list is just not appropriate. Especially all starting at step 7. The instructor must be able and willing to fly the very first flight of the new plane for a student and make darned sure that the plane is air-worthy and is capable of being a trainer.
The plane should be checked for neutral settings and flyable with them set that way. This means that it must be flown and have all trims set for straight ane level flight (hands off) then upon landing making sure that the system is adjusted so that neutral or centering of all sticks and trims allows for the plane to basically take off from ground roll without any input from the sitcks other than throttle.
What i mean by this is that once the maiden flight is complete, the instructor pilot must be able and willing to show the student how to re-set the linkages for center sticks that compensate for any trims set up for basic flight after the maiden. Once this is done, then the pilot should be able to take off from idle throttle (stopped) to flying with minimal stick movement (yeah, again, only throttle and slight.. SLIGHT.. adjustments with the rudder).
I repeated the ''straight and level'' flight becaues the plane must be able to be trimmed for this so that the student isn't chasing his/her tail trying to trim something that cannot be trimmed. This should be pre-set by experience.. so that the student isn't trying to do something that is, mechanically, is not attainable with that plane because someone did not set it up right.
Then, after the plane has lifted off, then the initial turn to downwind should be comfortable, while climbing to a working altitude.
If you are willing to read through this post, you can see that the initial setup and first flight (maiden) setup and trim is very important to helping the student fly with confidence that he/she will be able to deal with control over the plane rather than fighting with out of trim settings.
Being an instructor has a lot of responsibilities. There are a lot of pre-flight checks, especially for a maiden flight, followed by some in-flight adjustments that must be done so that students have a plane that is flyable within his or her capabilities.
Instructors, don't skimp on any of these basic procedures. Those first few flights are really important to getting the student to continue on with the instruction
CGr.
Steps
ORIGINAL: guver
Here's a side road that many might help me with. I'm sure there's some I've overlooked because it will be my first time teaching , but here is the plan.
1 Lipo crash course on charge and balance because we are electric only for now.
2 Arming radios,esc, prop safety
3 distance and orientation, wind, sun ,line of sight ect.
4 sim time with me watching,demonstrating
5 alone sim time for student
6 plane set-up and some mechanics for controls, servos, tx and rx
7 Level flight with me making turns
8 level flight making turns
9 figure 8's
10 Take offs
11 landings
12 Trimming a plane.
What did I forget or get out of order besides buiding and repairs ,lol?
Here's a side road that many might help me with. I'm sure there's some I've overlooked because it will be my first time teaching , but here is the plan.
1 Lipo crash course on charge and balance because we are electric only for now.
2 Arming radios,esc, prop safety
3 distance and orientation, wind, sun ,line of sight ect.
4 sim time with me watching,demonstrating
5 alone sim time for student
6 plane set-up and some mechanics for controls, servos, tx and rx
7 Level flight with me making turns
8 level flight making turns
9 figure 8's
10 Take offs
11 landings
12 Trimming a plane.
What did I forget or get out of order besides buiding and repairs ,lol?
However, regardless of glow or electric, you forgot a thorough pre-flight check.
''Plane setup and some mechanics'' just doesn't cut it. A complete pre-flight is very important. This includes linkage, battery, tight screws, servo binds (if exists) must be fixed, control orientation (does the rudder, elevator, throttle, and aileron do what you intended them to do.. rudder stick to the right - rudder moves to the right.. and so on) followed by a real good range check.
Then, after a successful pre-flight, the initial or maiden flight by someone that knows what's going on is really important. He/she will most likely make sure trims are within range (if not, should be able to land so checks can be made..) and if they are, make the appropriate trims for straight and level flight (hands off) for that throttle setting, then be able to explain and demonstrate the differences with throttle settings on straight and leve flight.
There is so much to be done on the initial or maiden flights, especially for training a beginner that s simple check list is just not appropriate. Especially all starting at step 7. The instructor must be able and willing to fly the very first flight of the new plane for a student and make darned sure that the plane is air-worthy and is capable of being a trainer.
The plane should be checked for neutral settings and flyable with them set that way. This means that it must be flown and have all trims set for straight ane level flight (hands off) then upon landing making sure that the system is adjusted so that neutral or centering of all sticks and trims allows for the plane to basically take off from ground roll without any input from the sitcks other than throttle.
What i mean by this is that once the maiden flight is complete, the instructor pilot must be able and willing to show the student how to re-set the linkages for center sticks that compensate for any trims set up for basic flight after the maiden. Once this is done, then the pilot should be able to take off from idle throttle (stopped) to flying with minimal stick movement (yeah, again, only throttle and slight.. SLIGHT.. adjustments with the rudder).
I repeated the ''straight and level'' flight becaues the plane must be able to be trimmed for this so that the student isn't chasing his/her tail trying to trim something that cannot be trimmed. This should be pre-set by experience.. so that the student isn't trying to do something that is, mechanically, is not attainable with that plane because someone did not set it up right.
Then, after the plane has lifted off, then the initial turn to downwind should be comfortable, while climbing to a working altitude.
If you are willing to read through this post, you can see that the initial setup and first flight (maiden) setup and trim is very important to helping the student fly with confidence that he/she will be able to deal with control over the plane rather than fighting with out of trim settings.
Being an instructor has a lot of responsibilities. There are a lot of pre-flight checks, especially for a maiden flight, followed by some in-flight adjustments that must be done so that students have a plane that is flyable within his or her capabilities.
Instructors, don't skimp on any of these basic procedures. Those first few flights are really important to getting the student to continue on with the instruction
CGr.
Steps
I'm impressed with this "airplane" part of the hobby because it is easy to see that I have a long way to go. I like something that one can't "master" quickly and easily.
Thanks for the replies (and allowing me to hi-jack thread)
02-19-2012 | 05:18 PM
#33
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From: Aledo,
TX
RE: How do you teach?
After reading this entire thread, and being completely new to flying RC, and still being on a buddy box, I know who I would like to train with from this thread and who I would not train with. First impressions are everything to a new flyer and an arrogant instructor can deter potentially new flyers from joining the sport.
02-19-2012 | 09:37 PM
#34
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RE: How do you teach?
Nathan, if a guy is THAT ambivalent about getting into this hobby, then he would be better off lying down until the urge to get involved passes and get back to playing those video games.
If you aren't prepared to face and deal with some adversity, then RC aviation is the wrong sport.
If you aren't prepared to face and deal with some adversity, then RC aviation is the wrong sport.
02-20-2012 | 04:26 PM
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From: Aledo,
TX
RE: How do you teach?
Absolutely, one should be prepared to deal with adversity as well as having their heart broke when they crash for the first time. But dealing with adversity should not mean dealing with arrogant instructors. Those kind of instuctors deter people from joing the sport, the club, and AMA all together. Instructors are there for the newbie, not the other way around. I met a couple of the instructors I am talking about before I met my instructor, and I will say I dont know how some clubs ever get new members.
02-20-2012 | 04:46 PM
#36
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RE: How do you teach?
I had too much of a burning desire to get into this sport to let some trivial thing like an arrogant instructor keep me from achieving my goal.
Thankfully, my instructor had me learn on a 6 foot span glider and I was on my own as soon as I could demonstrate basic control and the ability to land the stupid thing anywhere in the same time zone.
From there, I was given "mini lessons" with more advanced aircraft when the opportunity presented itself, but at least I was "checked off" to fly my big, lazy glider with just a bare minimum of "flight school" which was really a thrill at the time.
Thankfully, my instructor had me learn on a 6 foot span glider and I was on my own as soon as I could demonstrate basic control and the ability to land the stupid thing anywhere in the same time zone.
From there, I was given "mini lessons" with more advanced aircraft when the opportunity presented itself, but at least I was "checked off" to fly my big, lazy glider with just a bare minimum of "flight school" which was really a thrill at the time.
02-20-2012 | 06:55 PM
#37
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From: Dubbo, New South Wales, AUSTRALIA
RE: How do you teach?
G'day and thanks to everyone that has contributed to the thread.
I have been away from my computer for a few days and as a result, did not see the thread grow as it went along.
It has been interesting to read.
I guess I am in the school of "teachers etc" who teach because I like to and because I seem to be able to do it. It is stressful and tiring but it is also rewarding. I have also found that I have learned far more than I have ever taught. Teaching causes me to question not only how to do things but why. This in turn has lead me to try to learn a bit about how just about everything in my planes works at least at a basic level. I like to pass this on to my students as well. I find that if they know "why" they are more able to know "how".
As I mostly teach on glow powered models, I also teach them how to start their engines and how to tune them and also some fault finding. New comers really hate to have an engine they cannot start or which deadsticks regularly. Safety is also a big consideration. All too many of us start an engine then reach over the prop to remove the glow starter or make some adjustment. I don't like blood so I make sure they don't get into those habits. I also teach the "procedure turn" early in the process so that their normal reflex is to turn away from the strip and the pits should anything go wrong. We also learn and practice dead stick landings once they can land.
But I think the most important thing I do is to keep a level voice and never be critical of their performance. I do point out errors and suggest corrective actions but I never raise my voice or suggest that my student is hopeless. Gentle encouragement works far better especially with my older students.
In Australia we have an award scheme. Once a pilot can safely start his plane, take off and fly a simple pattern, he can apply to be tested for his Bronze Wings. This is, in essence, a basic award that says the beginner is now able to fly safely on his own. Later on, some pilots do the Gold Wings. This requires some ability in aerobatic flying but the main criterion of the test is to see that the pilot is always in control of the plane. Gold Wings pilots are eligible to attend an Instructor's course which then makes them an official instructor who can pass others at the Bronze and Gold Wing levels. It is not necessary to have the Instructors qualification to do teaching though.
Thanks again for contributing to this thread.
Michael from Oz
I have been away from my computer for a few days and as a result, did not see the thread grow as it went along.
It has been interesting to read.
I guess I am in the school of "teachers etc" who teach because I like to and because I seem to be able to do it. It is stressful and tiring but it is also rewarding. I have also found that I have learned far more than I have ever taught. Teaching causes me to question not only how to do things but why. This in turn has lead me to try to learn a bit about how just about everything in my planes works at least at a basic level. I like to pass this on to my students as well. I find that if they know "why" they are more able to know "how".
As I mostly teach on glow powered models, I also teach them how to start their engines and how to tune them and also some fault finding. New comers really hate to have an engine they cannot start or which deadsticks regularly. Safety is also a big consideration. All too many of us start an engine then reach over the prop to remove the glow starter or make some adjustment. I don't like blood so I make sure they don't get into those habits. I also teach the "procedure turn" early in the process so that their normal reflex is to turn away from the strip and the pits should anything go wrong. We also learn and practice dead stick landings once they can land.
But I think the most important thing I do is to keep a level voice and never be critical of their performance. I do point out errors and suggest corrective actions but I never raise my voice or suggest that my student is hopeless. Gentle encouragement works far better especially with my older students.
In Australia we have an award scheme. Once a pilot can safely start his plane, take off and fly a simple pattern, he can apply to be tested for his Bronze Wings. This is, in essence, a basic award that says the beginner is now able to fly safely on his own. Later on, some pilots do the Gold Wings. This requires some ability in aerobatic flying but the main criterion of the test is to see that the pilot is always in control of the plane. Gold Wings pilots are eligible to attend an Instructor's course which then makes them an official instructor who can pass others at the Bronze and Gold Wing levels. It is not necessary to have the Instructors qualification to do teaching though.
Thanks again for contributing to this thread.
Michael from Oz
02-21-2012 | 02:22 PM
#38
RE: How do you teach?
Major Tomski, You are sending me private messages stating that I am mistreating you.. You accuse me of saying things that you find not to your liking.
You stated that you never said you did not teach aerodynamics. Then how do you describe this copy of your inputs.
You condemn me because I don't know you. I have read many books, magazines, news items, where I don't know the author, yet I do make decisions on those readings because the author either said or implied various things.
You say that I owe you a public apology. I don't think so. This being a forum for input, I gave my input that - in my opinion - your techniques are not providing a student RC flier the proper background to be able to provide for their better Safety for those around him/her. I stick to that. I have known jet jocks that were the greatest stick-and-rudder jocks ever, do things like forget removing the seat pins and die in the wreck, and even one that let a GCA controller turn his F-106 into a mountain side, not long after he returned from his hundred missions in the F-105. No matter how good one is, there is always room for more knowledge. I definitely make my share of idiot-displays and I try to learn from them, yet there are still those Dumb-Shot happenings. Maybe that is why I believe in doing my utmost to promote SAFETY. Understanding the machine is a big start in flight safety.
I compemented you in statements such as having read previous posts that you made and found them to be good, and when you stated that you were an all around nice guy, I said I never doubted such.
Therefore I only passed my judgments on your postings as you stated your opinion/s as quoted above.
As once said by my favorite General: "These proceedings are CLOSED"
You stated that you never said you did not teach aerodynamics. Then how do you describe this copy of your inputs.
The principle is virtually NO ONE who wants to learn to fly an RC plane wants to or NEEDS to learn ANY aerodynamics theory. I teach the simple mechanics of how to get the plane safely in the air and back down again in one piece. If they want to talk aerodynamics and phyics they can go learn that on their own...LATER.
You say that I owe you a public apology. I don't think so. This being a forum for input, I gave my input that - in my opinion - your techniques are not providing a student RC flier the proper background to be able to provide for their better Safety for those around him/her. I stick to that. I have known jet jocks that were the greatest stick-and-rudder jocks ever, do things like forget removing the seat pins and die in the wreck, and even one that let a GCA controller turn his F-106 into a mountain side, not long after he returned from his hundred missions in the F-105. No matter how good one is, there is always room for more knowledge. I definitely make my share of idiot-displays and I try to learn from them, yet there are still those Dumb-Shot happenings. Maybe that is why I believe in doing my utmost to promote SAFETY. Understanding the machine is a big start in flight safety.
I compemented you in statements such as having read previous posts that you made and found them to be good, and when you stated that you were an all around nice guy, I said I never doubted such.
Therefore I only passed my judgments on your postings as you stated your opinion/s as quoted above.
As once said by my favorite General: "These proceedings are CLOSED"
02-21-2012 | 04:15 PM
#40
My Feedback: (1)
RE: How do you teach?
Forum posters, please be advised:
I normally let these threads go on their own without much "supervision". Occasionally, however, "adult supervision" is required.
Keep this on subject without the sarcasm and the insults or it won't take much longer than a New York minute to shut it down.
CGRetired, Moderator.
I normally let these threads go on their own without much "supervision". Occasionally, however, "adult supervision" is required.
Keep this on subject without the sarcasm and the insults or it won't take much longer than a New York minute to shut it down.
CGRetired, Moderator.
02-21-2012 | 05:47 PM
#41
RE: How do you teach?
ORIGINAL: iflircaircraft
Hossfly could you explain to me just how does adding 3-5 degrees up aileron will prevent snap rolls on take off on a warbird?
Tom
Hossfly could you explain to me just how does adding 3-5 degrees up aileron will prevent snap rolls on take off on a warbird?
Tom
02-21-2012 | 06:56 PM
#42
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From: Grovetown, GA
RE: How do you teach?
I would have no idea if there is any washout built in since this is a Corsair .60 ARF. Wouldn't the deployment of flaps have the same affect as washout?
Tom
Tom
02-21-2012 | 07:17 PM
#43
RE: How do you teach?
Yes, but it is not a good idea to use them on takeoff. Washout is helpful during all phases of flight with most A/C, but is not always required. There is a delicate balance when working with heavy metal warbirds. Too much washout and you loose some effective lift, not enough with a mediocre pilot and you can have a stall spin waiting to happen.
02-22-2012 | 01:24 AM
#44
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From: Lacona, NY
RE: How do you teach?
ORIGINAL: CGRetired
Forum posters, please be advised:
I normally let these threads go on their own without much ''supervision''. Occasionally, however, ''adult supervision'' is required.
Keep this on subject without the sarcasm and the insults or it won't take much longer than a New York minute to shut it down.
CGRetired, Moderator.
Forum posters, please be advised:
I normally let these threads go on their own without much ''supervision''. Occasionally, however, ''adult supervision'' is required.
Keep this on subject without the sarcasm and the insults or it won't take much longer than a New York minute to shut it down.
CGRetired, Moderator.
Amen.
We can debate without fighting. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that. We all have our ways of teaching others how to fly. It's not about who is right or wrong, it's about how we teach others to fly. If my club votes me as teacher, then it's because I must be doing something right.
My problem is patience, I lack it teaching others my way of doing things. It's one of my hang ups I have to learn over time I guess.
Pete
02-22-2012 | 08:42 PM
#45
RE: How do you teach?
[8D]
iflircaircraft, You asked me the above question. cfircav8r answered it and did so very well with the correct answer. However as I like to dwell a tad more into this theory, but not into the Boeing Engineer's jobs, I will just do a touch on the subject.
Most heavy warbird type models are set up with the aileron matching the inboard trailing edge of the wing. With lighter wing loaded airplanes this can work OK. With heavy models, over 1 pound per 100 square inches wing area, (MY rule I snatched out of the "air"and "experience" ) things can be a tad more different.
Given the wing set standard, all trailing edges equal, the model is about ready to fly and the nose comes up increasing the angle-of-attack (AOA), thus the "load factor" on the wing.
Now a little left bank happens creating an instant aileron response from the pilot. Usually that bank is to the left. Pilot corrects right with aileron rather than Rudder. The right wing aileron moves UP, which lessens the effective angle-of-attack on the right wing which actually decreases the right wing lifting force while trying to start a right correction, yet in return also reduces that wing's drag. Now the the left wing aileron going DOWN created more lift, at the higher AOA, it also increases drag and thus tends to increase the pull to the left, slowing the left wing tending to neutralize the extra aileron-down lift, thus now increasing the right wing's actual lift due to its increase in velocity-squared.
The result is the time-after-time Snap to the Left and a bent warbird. Of course some right rudder would be a good thing with little or NO aileron, but then that is another story.
About 2 years ago I was sitting at the field and watching an Instructor try to help a guy that had a rather draggy looking bipe. It was wallowing all over the air and was not really flying. They made several attempts and the instructor kept readusting the ailerons DOWN. It just got worse. I was surprised the machine did not come apart. Finally I couldn't take it any more so I suggested raising the ailerons, The IN. laughed in my face. He said he was giving it more lift because of the underpower. After a bit the owner suggested to try my point, so we did. First up about 5 degrees. It was flyable. A couple more degrees and behold, flying around the field and making good take-offs and landings.
In subsonic convergent airflow, Lift comes from the Coeficient of Lift (angle-of-attack) times 1/2 airmass density times the velocity squared times the wing area. Sometimes a little help along makes things better.
BTW that instructor doesn't anymore speak to me much. Sad because he is really a great person and a great pilot on his own.
Someone spoke of a Corsair. I helped a pilot turn a Corsair from a horrible crash-waiting-to-happen into a fun airplane simply by easing the CG forward about 4% from the 30% he had, and then raising the the ailerons about 3/8 of an inch above the main wing TE. He couldn't believe the difference, doing loops, rolls, and such warbird maneuvers plus great landings. I liked that.
Way back almost 30 years ago, I went out to Phoenix 1 or 2 times a year to race Scale War Birds. Back then the Static Scale was 50% of the final score. I had built a cute little Spitfire, abou 50" winspan, with the Polish Markings, with a rear exhaust K&B 6.5. It flew well but take-offs were horrible. I started raising the ailerons, and things got better. At 8 degrees up it was a ***** cat. Getting better until I was passing a larger P-51 as he was pulling into a pylon turn and wham, he cut off the fuselage and tail section right behind the wing. That roll and down into the dust was just beautiful as the dust really came up making "smoke" sooo realistic.
The P-51 suffered a broken prop. 
Applied Aerodynamics was NO HELP there.
ORIGINAL: iflircaircraft
Hossfly could you explain to me just how does adding 3-5 degrees up aileron will prevent snap rolls on take off on a warbird?
Tom
Hossfly could you explain to me just how does adding 3-5 degrees up aileron will prevent snap rolls on take off on a warbird?
Tom
Most heavy warbird type models are set up with the aileron matching the inboard trailing edge of the wing. With lighter wing loaded airplanes this can work OK. With heavy models, over 1 pound per 100 square inches wing area, (MY rule I snatched out of the "air"and "experience" ) things can be a tad more different.
Given the wing set standard, all trailing edges equal, the model is about ready to fly and the nose comes up increasing the angle-of-attack (AOA), thus the "load factor" on the wing.
Now a little left bank happens creating an instant aileron response from the pilot. Usually that bank is to the left. Pilot corrects right with aileron rather than Rudder. The right wing aileron moves UP, which lessens the effective angle-of-attack on the right wing which actually decreases the right wing lifting force while trying to start a right correction, yet in return also reduces that wing's drag. Now the the left wing aileron going DOWN created more lift, at the higher AOA, it also increases drag and thus tends to increase the pull to the left, slowing the left wing tending to neutralize the extra aileron-down lift, thus now increasing the right wing's actual lift due to its increase in velocity-squared.
The result is the time-after-time Snap to the Left and a bent warbird. Of course some right rudder would be a good thing with little or NO aileron, but then that is another story.
About 2 years ago I was sitting at the field and watching an Instructor try to help a guy that had a rather draggy looking bipe. It was wallowing all over the air and was not really flying. They made several attempts and the instructor kept readusting the ailerons DOWN. It just got worse. I was surprised the machine did not come apart. Finally I couldn't take it any more so I suggested raising the ailerons, The IN. laughed in my face. He said he was giving it more lift because of the underpower. After a bit the owner suggested to try my point, so we did. First up about 5 degrees. It was flyable. A couple more degrees and behold, flying around the field and making good take-offs and landings.
In subsonic convergent airflow, Lift comes from the Coeficient of Lift (angle-of-attack) times 1/2 airmass density times the velocity squared times the wing area. Sometimes a little help along makes things better.
BTW that instructor doesn't anymore speak to me much. Sad because he is really a great person and a great pilot on his own.
Someone spoke of a Corsair. I helped a pilot turn a Corsair from a horrible crash-waiting-to-happen into a fun airplane simply by easing the CG forward about 4% from the 30% he had, and then raising the the ailerons about 3/8 of an inch above the main wing TE. He couldn't believe the difference, doing loops, rolls, and such warbird maneuvers plus great landings. I liked that.
Way back almost 30 years ago, I went out to Phoenix 1 or 2 times a year to race Scale War Birds. Back then the Static Scale was 50% of the final score. I had built a cute little Spitfire, abou 50" winspan, with the Polish Markings, with a rear exhaust K&B 6.5. It flew well but take-offs were horrible. I started raising the ailerons, and things got better. At 8 degrees up it was a ***** cat. Getting better until I was passing a larger P-51 as he was pulling into a pylon turn and wham, he cut off the fuselage and tail section right behind the wing. That roll and down into the dust was just beautiful as the dust really came up making "smoke" sooo realistic.
The P-51 suffered a broken prop. Applied Aerodynamics was NO HELP there.
02-22-2012 | 10:34 PM
#46
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From: , WA
RE: How do you teach?
ORIGINAL: AugerDawger
Simulator.
Foamie.
Park.
Entirely possible to teach yourself now.
And you never have to listen to how the instructor taught Chuck Yeager and the perpetual schmeckle measuring contest of the AMA club scene.
Simulator.
Foamie.
Park.
Entirely possible to teach yourself now.
And you never have to listen to how the instructor taught Chuck Yeager and the perpetual schmeckle measuring contest of the AMA club scene.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKCuQDA1CBk[/youtube]
02-23-2012 | 12:41 PM
#48
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From: , WA
RE: How do you teach?
ORIGINAL: AugerDawger
NFA Fab GREAT WORK !
You could see you settle right down and smooth it out.
Add another RC Outlaw to the mix.
NFA Fab GREAT WORK !
You could see you settle right down and smooth it out.
Add another RC Outlaw to the mix.
<br type="_moz" />
02-23-2012 | 01:13 PM
#49
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From: grand rapids, MI
RE: How do you teach?
Hmm....interesting tidbit (about ailerons up on take-off). I certainly don't doubt that it works...I would just set it to a switch for takeoffs the turn them back to 0 afterwards, before I make the first turn.....<div>
</div><div>I'm wondering how flaps on takeoff would work along with or against that aileron trick though.</div><div>
</div><div>BTW, I know how to use rudder and have throttle control on taking off. I enjoy the gradual lifting off, try to make them look as scale as I can. Perhaps I don't need the aileron spoilers?</div>
</div><div>I'm wondering how flaps on takeoff would work along with or against that aileron trick though.</div><div>
</div><div>BTW, I know how to use rudder and have throttle control on taking off. I enjoy the gradual lifting off, try to make them look as scale as I can. Perhaps I don't need the aileron spoilers?</div>
02-23-2012 | 02:39 PM
#50
RE: How do you teach?
I teach with a stern voice and wooden stick 
but seriously folks... cool and calm goes a long way. Also come to terms on the terms... for example we all know what pull up means... but early on my student pushed elev stick "up" [&:]
but seriously folks... cool and calm goes a long way. Also come to terms on the terms... for example we all know what pull up means... but early on my student pushed elev stick "up" [&:]
