sensei

As a kid I learned to build and fly RC models through the school of hard knocks, there was no such thing as a buddy box or an ARF model, you tried and erred your way to becoming an accomplished pilot after many hours of building and it was a very slow and painful process. Thank god those days are gone and we now have things like BNF and ARFs with AS3X and SAFE. The more stick time you get the better you will be, AS3X/SAFE helps you to keep flying as you hone your skills and that is what it is all about. Repairing and or building is all fine and dandy but neither will make you a pilot. Building is the hobby, flying is the sport!

Bob

jester_s1

I've only been in the hobby for 13 years, but my understanding from those who started in the 70s is that most started with free flight or control line, so they knew how to build properly before ever getting into RC. Today, we can jump right into RC models and have a pretty good chance of being successful. Still, the old school route works as well as it ever did. IMHO, there are all these conversations about how to get kids interested in aeromodeling and the club scene. Most want to build, so I think RC is the wrong place to start. I do a FF project in my 8th grade engineering class, and it's the favorite unit for most of the kids.

Nikom

What point?? The point of having fun and don’t crash you expensive planes on your
first maiden? I’ve seen several new members in my club leaving the hobby after short
membership in our club because they didn’t had the patience or will to learn to fly the
”old” way. For me Spektrum was the Holy gral with BNF and AX3S. That’s why i still fly
in our club nearly two years now

Dalyn

I agree with training on a simulator. I used RealFlight 7.5 and it helped very much with getting used to the controls. Just remember you cant punch reset in real life...

Hydro Junkie

I don't think so. What Safe does is gives a new flyer a false sense of security and ability that isn't there. They also don't get the benefits of having an instructor or other experienced pilots there to help them and show them how to recover from mistakes. The rule of thumb is to fly at three mistakes high while learning. Most beginners that buy a SAFE equipped plane don't go after instruction, they just go to the park and fly. What do they learn during those flights? They learn what the sticks do on the transmitter. The SAFE system prevents overcontrolling to a large extent so they never learn how to actually control the plane and, when they do turn off the SAFE, they have all the bad habits they developed to unlearn. Going back to my driving a car without auto brakes after only driving one that does, the question becomes how hard do you push the brake peddle to safely stop the car? How about slowing it down to avoid slower traffic? These are things that have to be learned, something that doesn't happen when you rely on tech. So, let's get back to the planes and a scenario :
a kid goes into the hobby shop and buys a Wildcat. He turns on SAFE and throws it into the air. He now thinks "Look at me, I'm flying a plane and it's easy!!!" After a few trips to the park, he gets confident enough to throw it into the air and then turns the SAFE off. What happens now? Will he know how to fly it or will his hard earned money end up in a garbage bag? Will he be smart enough to know to turn the SAFE back on before it's too late to save the plane? Sure he's had fun up to that point, but was he actually flying the plane or was it flying itself with the kid just telling it which direction to go? I'll leave the answering of that to you since you've already told me I'm wrong

Bush League

Safe has given me a lot more confidence and allowed me to progress from the Sport Cub S to the UMX Radian, UMX Waco (no safe) and UMX Timber and Turbo Timber. Yes, I like Horizon planes - they were easy to find when a lot of stores didn't have any product. Throughout the COVID shutdown the lack of proper flying fields to fly at and lack of hands-on instruction didn't let me progress in the "normal" way. The pandemic got me into this hobby, 4 and a half month ago now, as my other pursuits were shut down. Despite the limitations that resulted from isolation I wouldn't have gotten to the point of owning half a dozen airplanes and enjoying this hobby without safe!

Alexsv96

I will just say I just started 4 years ago, I did some simulator flying, then took my apprentice to the air with safe and it helped me understand some basic principles (like to land u control the plane with throttle not elevator, or rudder upon landing on runway not ailerons) things like that, I stopped using the safe mode after a few flights and now I fly turbines... my second plane was an old avistar balsa nitro plane and third was a foamy T28 great first plane also. Nothing wrong with safe it’s created for a reason to help lessen the financial burden on learning curves

rbstern

I'm 25+ years removed from my last RC flight, ready to get back in. I see a SAFE capable plane as a very good thing. I already know what the sticks do. I know how model airplanes are supposed to behave in the air, what the common mistakes are, what I should and shouldn't do, etc. What I don't know is, how will my reflexes, eyesight and well-aged brain work the first time after take off? Suspect I could probably take off in a trainer to intermediate/sport aircraft, get it in the air, do basic maneuvers, and get it safely back down. But SAFE capability pretty much guarantees that. Consider that as an additional use case. I'd probably turn it off after a couple of flights, and likely would never use it again, unless training someone else.

As far as people not learning because of SAFE: I disagree. A trainer with SAFE/intermediate/off setup is an ideal tool, IMHO. Particulary for folks who don't have ready access to others with knowledge. Ultimately, if a beginner never learns with SAFE disabled, that's on them, and maybe reflects their limitations as an RC pilot. That's not an indictment of the SAFE system. After all, it's got a switch. Not really sure how you can argue about the value of an inexpensive training aid that can be turned off.

Finally: Not all instructors are good teachers. In fact, some are lousy. Might be good RC pilots, but more than a few are lousy at communication, clear explanation, giving advice, etc. At least SAFE behaves the same way every time.

Tom Nied

Well I was out with the F4F Wildcat yesterday. Breezy, I'm rusty on the sticks because of Covid, haven't flown for awhile.Took off with Safe on, turned it off and flew for the duration of the flight, turned it back on for the landing. It really is pretty cool how it will take off and land pretty much by itself. As long as you don't put a tree in front of it. I fly it with Safe on for take off and landings, Low rates and high rates while I'm flying. It's a great grab and go airplane. My experience is 20 years RC, intermediate. I think Safe is great.

Hydro Junkie

And, in your case, SAFE is nothing more than an insurance policy. For someone that's never flown before, it's a safety net and, in many cases, a crutch that gives a false sense of security. Can a beginner learn to fly with SAFE? Sure they can. Can a beginner learn how to recover from the mistakes SAFE protects them from? Not a chance IF they don't turn it off and leave it off. To make matters worse, the person that learns to fly using SAFE doesn't know what (s)he doesn't know or what to expect in situations that SAFE again protects them from

Tom Nied

Can I fly RC, sure. I would admit, one can fly with Safe. But if someone would have asked me yesterday, "is that easy to fly", I would have to answer, "it is easy to fly, but it is easy to get into trouble real fast". So lets not kid ourselves.

rbstern

If someone learns to fly with it enabled, never flies a model without it, and just enjoys flying a SAFE enabled plane...so what? Why should that bother anyone?

Someone who is enthusiastic about the hobby and interested in advancing their skills will know they'll eventually have to turn SAFE off to go further. If they progress wisely from SAFE, they stand a good chance of becoming a successful RC pilot. I knew many people who washed out of the hobby because they were tired of the expense of crashing planes and couldn't find enough help to get them over the hump. That was 30 years ago, before the marvel of software was mainstream in RC flying. There's no reason, if used as intended, going out of SAFE to the intermediate mode, and then finally to full control, someone can't learn to recover from mistakes. Sure, some will be overconfident due to SAFE and make mistakes. Seen that plenty without SAFE. That's a cognitive issue, not a technological one.

Are you bothered by people who can only play chopsticks on the piano? Never learned to cook anything other than scrambled eggs? Someone who has a fantastic eye with a camera but only takes pictures with their phone?

RC flying is a hobby with all kinds of participants. If SAFE gets someone in the air, and keeps their interest because they managed to not drive the model into the ground on the first flight, it's a good thing.

Hydro Junkie

My replies are posted following your comments in your post above

Hydro Junkie

You can get in trouble really fast with any R/C. I managed to do it with my scale hydroplane while taking my driver's test

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Ok a few things based on the last few posts. First I don't think that it's against any AMA rules to fly alone. Granted it may be a rule for some clubs ( not any that I belong to ). I will agree that it's not exactly a safe practice but some still do so.

When there are guys out at the field I don't give a rats ass what they are flying provided they are flying in a safe manner and enjoying themselves. Most sport pilots fly in rather close so if I choose to fly ( usually pattern practice ) I am typically 100-125 yards out. For most flying that far out is quite uncomfortable. This was the case two weekends ago when a couple of us decided to practice for a pattern contest the following weekend both Saturday and Sunday and Sunday was a bit crowded. Since we fly two Pattern models at the same time during the contest it's actually good to practice holding concentration while others are flying.


For the record, I don't exactly mind airplanes with Safe, except that it reinforces the lack of learning how to properly setting up a model airplane. All too often I see guys fighting their airplanes around the sky because they aren't interested in learning how to make them fly correctly. IMO safe will mask a poor setup making it un nessesary to fine tune the adjustments, then turn off the safe with a poor setup and the new pilot struggles and hasn't a clue why.

Hydro Junkie

Speed, I like your comments, well said. I did put some clarification to some things I posted earlier in a different color

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Hydro, at every club I have joined ( well over 10 at this point ) flying directly over the runway is bad form. Typically the runway is left clear for takeoffs and landings only. Low passes are permitted provided they are called out and acknowledged. This is pretty much why a lot of the old farts ( myself included ) aren't crazy about 3D flying. Typically at my current home field we stop and wait when three are airborne in contrast to some other clubs in my past where 5 in the air was not uncommon. Most times when I begin a flight guys will wait until I'm done although not nessesary. The few guys that will fly with me always ask if I mind first but the answer is always " not at all ".

I think the spotter rule is a club by club thing. I have visited clubs that require spotters. Again not a bad idea. As mentioned in a different thread, I have seen more diligent efforts for everyone at the field spot for manned aircraft and give a shout out.

Corsair3660

I think SAFE can be good and bad. I was lucky enough to be able to learn with a friend and buddy box(no SAFE on his planes). He kept me off the ground, thankfully, since it was his plane. Once we switched to my plane which also didnt have SAFE he did the same. Since none of the planes had it I knew I had to be careful and couldnt just do whatever I wanted. However if I had been learning on my own I probably would have bought a plane with SAFE. Unfortunately I also know that it can cause some harm if you don't know what you are doing or if you get far enough out of shape. Yesterday I watched someone lose a fight with a wooden fence because his skills are somewhat lacking and he was unable to pull up enough due to SAFE limiting control to keep the plane stable. If he had full control he may have been able to pull up and clear the fence, although I dont know why he was headed that direction in the first place. I saw another pilot and his plane was headed out to the trees and he thought it was because safe was limiting the bank angle and he couldnt get turned before he was out of range.

bisco

started flying with guro and auto stabilization a few months ago. it is a great way to learn the basics if you can't find an instructor, especially orientation when the plane is coming at you.

but a big downside is how you get lulled into complacency. these computers do an amazing job of flying the plane, and could probably be programmed to fly autonomously at some point.

but when you try to switch to advance mode from intermediate, and take the gyro out completely, it's a whole nuther ballgame.

i found that the computer was doing way more than i thought, and allowing me to fly a 20" ws plane in moderate winds.
trying to keep the plane stable on my own has proven to be impossible so far, and i am going to move on to a 36-48" trainer that will hopefully be more stable on its own.

Flight Risk

My Feedback: (1)

I have a little UMX Waco with AS3X which weighs only a few ounces and flies in wind which some of my 60-80" ws planes can't. It's truly amazing to me. Without stabilization these little light planes would be difficult to fly in the lightest breeze. Here's a good video about how this stabilization makes it possible to fly an impossible to fly plane, in high wind.

bisco

agree 100%.
i just need to learn to fly first, then using gyro for instances when needed is a wonderful thing.

Nikom

So true my friend👍 Think it’really comes from “old” pilots who didn’t had safe back then
And it annoys them to see new pilots fly and land planes smoothly😜

Hydro Junkie

Not true at all.
It comes down to someone really being able to fly their plane. Would you trust a commercial pilot that couldn't fly the plane you're on without the auto pilot? An Airbus plane went down over the Atlantic for that very reason, killing all on board. If you can only fly a plane with SAFE active and it fails, now what? Does the plane crash? Can the operator land it? Does the plane fly away since the operator can't control it? I hope you see where this is leading

bisco

well lads,

after 3 months, i can say that i'm weaned off of safe for high winged trainers. flying the aeroscout, sport cub and smart dart no prolem.
i still have a long way to go, and my first foray into a lower wing with no stabilization whatsoever will be a 42" yak 55, which i am building now, but likely won't fly until spring.
i am still trying to find a pc that will handle rf9.5 so i can practice more over the winter, but no luck so far.

would a teacher and a buddy box be the best way to go, i have no doubt. would have saved me a lot of crashes and treetop landings.

as far as permanent safe is concerned, i would get bored just steering it around the sky, but it's the next best thing to a real teacher that i can think of, especially during covid.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

The Yak is not a particularly difficult airplane to fly provided it is set up correctly. This is where the old fart in me comes out. I'm not going to try to assign blame to what I have seen over the past few decades but I have seen a decline in the amount of effort that people put into setting up and trimming their airplane. I see guys all the time fight an airplane around the sky that with a couple hours worth of work would fly a whole heck of a lot better. things like balancing aileron throws, aileron differential, expo settings, testing for correct CG placement, thrust line adjustment, throttle curve etc. results in a package that makes just about any airplane much easier to fly. Once the airplane is flying as it should, building piloting skills happens at an accelerated rate.