I've read on here where people have said not to upgrade to a second plane until you can do snaps, cascades, inverted loops, etc. with your trainer. How do you setup your trainer to be more aerobatic? I have the Alpha trainer and was trying to get it to spin but when it stalled, it just wanted to mush.

Thanks,

chris

I have struggled to snap my trainer .... Too "corrective" and "stable" to do it. Really does not like stalling... so, on the advice of an experienced pilot, do the snaps inverted.

There are some things that your trainer just can not do. Snaps/spins are normally one of them because they rely on wing stalls which trainers are designed to almost eliminate. Trainers also make knife-edges really hard (with Wing dihedral especially), need to carefully control rudder, aileron, and elevator to get it right.

Read your manual again, and get the maximum throws available on your plane. Consider upgrading the engine to make inverted flight easier, and then try to do as much inverted as possible because the wings stall so much better then....

gus

Chris,

Yes, aerobatics are a great way to build flying skills. Even flying full scale, "Unusual Attitude" training is considered a must for the serious pilot. BUT !!!!!

I've been an instructor for over 20 years and I would just like to pass on a couple of observations.

1. ANYBODY can CRANK AND YANK a plane around the sky. You can call it loops, rolls, snaps, avalanches, hovering... etc ...I repeat ANYBODY....

2. To do these maneuvers with skill and precision takes an aerobatic ship. Call it a pattern ship if you would like but it takes a plane that goes where you point it and doesn't do anything by itself. This includes the IMAC planes as well as the true Pattern ships. Your Alpha can teach you to loop and roll , stall turn and a lot of basic maneouvers BUT there is ONE THING YOUR ALPHA CAN TEACH YOU VERY WELL>>>>

3. That is HOW TO LAND !!!!!!!!! I can't possibly stress this enough... ANYBODY CAN FLY... IT TAKES A PILOT TO LAND !!!!!

4. When can you land?.... When you can put your plane plus or minus 10 feet on the center of the runway regardless of crosswind or other conditions. This is what makes a pilot. Sound harsh? Maybe, but once you have THIS most important skill mastered, everything else is a lot easier because if you master landing, you have learned to use all your controls simultaneously to make the plane go where YOU want it to.


I didn't mean this to sound like a soapbox, but I see it everyday at the flying field. Sure, they can loop,snap, fly inverted.... but they can't put the airplane on the ground in anything that even looks like a landing... usually it is the 3 or 4 bounce till the prop stops touchdown. Funny how all those cool points he just made whooping around the sky just went down the tubes when he couldn't land.

And, yes, I fly pattern.. it is the area where I find the most challenge and the most skill as it relates to what I want out of R/C. I hope that you do advance to that level and that perhaps one day you do compete. Good Luck...

and.. the reason the Alpha won't snap is that the CG is too far forward and the airfoil doesn't want to have a sharp break on the stall...a snap is what it was designed NOT to do....

Deadstik [8D]

I agree.

You do NOT need to be able to do aerobatics with a trainer to advance. However, many people are trying to skip the logical progression of the learning curve in order to fly airplanes that are more advanced than their capabilities. Here is a snipet of something I perviously posted last February:

I would like to point you to the original thread, and encourage you to read it. Click the link below:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_54.../tm.htm#544067

First, thank you all for the replys. I guess I should have given more background.

After a four year layoff from flying, I got back in by buying the Alpha trainer. I originally taught myself how to fly with a LT40 and then went on to build a Durastick 40 with a low flat semi-symmetrical wing. I at that time found another flyer in my area who helped me hone my flying skills teaching me how to land towards myself, much of the time in a crosswind on a narrow paved road with sidewalks. That really gets you landing accurately. I never crashed or hurt that plane.

Now, four years later I get back on this site and start reading again. This time I thought I would really try to pay my dues and start from the beginning. One post I read said that you shouldn't move on to a second plane until you can get your trainer to do a whole list of stuff including cascades, spins, etc. So, believing a trainer could do all this and thinking that I should be able to do this with a trainer first, I get the Alpha. Prior to reading that post, I was thinking about getting a Four* since I already had experience with the Durastick. I really didn't want another trainer since I remember the plane being more susceptible to wind and seeming to fight me controlling it unlike the durastick with the flat wing.

I'm really very patient and that's why I bought the trainer. I wanted to do this the right way; however, I wonder if I should have just started back where I last was, with a beginner aerobatic plane.

Any comments?

Thanks,

chris

I forgot to ask this. I was given a Goldberg Cub kit that I'm building over the winter. Is this considered a very good beginner aerobatic plane or should I get a 4* first? Which one will be more aerobatic?


Also, the whole reason that I posted the first question is to ask whether I can increase the aerobatic potential of the Alpha or if I should just go ahead and get rid of it and get a 4*.

Thanks,

chris

There are a lot of things you can do with your trainer. You can learn to take-off, land and fly with precision. You can also practice some milder aerobatics such as stall turns, loops, rolls, inverted flight (to an extent at least). These are all great stunts and its fun to learn to do them well. Work on precision. In wind and without, because flying in wind will force you to use the rudder more to track straight. Once you have a good situational awareness and eye hand coordination you'll be able to fly the wings off a sport model.

To make your trainer a little more responsive you can increase your control throws (just a little at a time) and move the CG aft. Consult your plans/manual about the CG, though, because your plane can become unstable if it is too far back.

As far as inverted snaps. That's ridiculous. You're trainer wasn't designed for that kind of stuff and your just as likely to rip the wings off as you are to complete the roll.

If you want to do snaps get a good sport model that's designed for it. My second plane was a Great Planes Super Decathalon. I also have an RV-4 which ironically, is easier to fly than the Decathalon. Both models would be good for aerobatics.

To answer your question directly, there are some things that an Alpha will just never do very well, if at all. Knife edge and upright snaps and spins are a few.

Moving the CG back and increasing control throws as mentioned above will help you do more with a trainer. When increasing control throws, you can go way beyond the "recommended" throws, just do it a little at a time.

Oh, if you haven't epoxied the wings together, now would be a really good time to do that. Once that's done, you won't have to worry too much about over stressing the airframe. I do inverted spins with my beater trainer all the time. Not quite enough control throws to do a snap though.

That said, I agree with much of the above, learning a lot of acrobatics is best with a more acrobatic plane. The advice to stay on the the trainer for a bit is good for the guys who want to rush on to the next thing before they are really ready for it. That doesn't sound like you in this case.

Hi, i have a Great Planes MK2 0.40 trainer, and i can loop, roll and even make inverted flights with him, you just need more pratice and youll be ready to do it too, want an advice?? play simulator in your pc first, and youll learn it fast.

Deadstik and Montague say it best.

Deadstik's post should be read and reread to all beginner pilots out there until they can say it word for word.

I too see many beginners that come out to the field shortly after they have soloed and go right into yanking the sticks around and then making an embarassing landing. In many cases, they end up destroying their plane. Instead of repairing or replacing it with another trainer, they go out and get an advanced plane. Soon after, thye've crashed that one too, and in most cases, shortly after that, you generally don't see them around too much.

As for the Alpha, I have much experience with it, as I have helped repair many of these with students, usually shortly after they solo. Yes, do indeed epoxy those wing halves together! Also, don't think that the Alpha trainer is robust by any means. What I have found out is some of them are, and some of them aren't. I've seen some from the inside that were built very well, and some that had missing glue joints, bad joins between balsa pieces, and in one case, the leading edge spar was spliced, and only held together with the top and bottom sheeting- no epoxy or CA on the splice at all! My point is this- if you decide to fly the Alpha hard, you may or may not get away with it, depending on what you do. Do yourself a favor and go out and buy a good intermediate trainer that is designed to do these moves.

But before anyone leaves the trainer scene, just make sure you can do the following:

Take off down the centerline of the runway, and depart on a straight line from the runway, climbing up to altitude, make a rectangular pattern (crosswind, downwind, base and final) keeping the pattern and altitude consistant and land down the centerline of the runway with a mains first landing (nose wheel touches after mains do). If you can do this with no wind, a headwind and a cross wind you have aquired the skills necessary for learning aerobatic manouvers. That's what I have my students do before I solo them (plus stalls, slow flight, etc).

That's what a trainer is for; to train you to fly. Asking anything more from it is asking it to do something it wasn't designed to do. Once you do these things well, you'll be miles ahead of anyone else who doesn't learn these skills.

This is not to say that you shouldn't do aerobatics with your trainer. If you still don't get it, reread the posts above until you do- i don't think you can say it better than what was said here.

This still is starting to getting into the debate about what is a good 2nd plane. True you can fly your trainer with confidence and what you think you learn with the trainer as far as 3d or most acrobatic manuvers with the flat bottom wing will not apply with a true acrobatic plane....a trainer simply will not go where you point it and will fight any input except to fly level....learn to land #1, if you have that down, learn to land in a cross wind #2, then get something that will translate your stick actions better..I flew a LT40, then went to a sig SE, was a little big step, I would recommend the 4*, good price, design of plane has ease of repair, and usually can use the same engine from your trainer...trust me you will see what point and go means, you will have to fly a 4*....

GOOD LUCK

This may be my doing.........

In another post, the comment was made about "mastering" a trainer. I questioned the pilots deffinition of "mastering" by listing off several manuvers that I perform with a bone stock, LA 40 powered, stock control throws Hobbico SuperStar Select. Most of the manuvers were pattern and/or freestlye type manuvers.

Is a trainer a good trainer for aerobatics? Not really, in fact it may be the worst. A trainer wing is not designed for that stuff. Can it be done? Yes it can.

Many new people who come to the field, don't want a trainer becasue, "a trainer won't do anything" I show them what a basic trainer is really capable of.

Also, if I ever go to a field where I don't know anyone, I will pull out the trainer (if I have it with me). My son and I will put the wing on and fill it up. Most of the time, one of the member will come over to me and ask if I need some help. I tell them no, I got it. I will take off the plane, do 2 1/2 negitive snaps to inverted directly into a rolling circle. I will normally hear people scream as this happens, they all think I'm about to crash it. My 6 year old son, Zane, like to stand with the group and listen to the comments, then he tells me what was said while I was flying. I know, I sick

If you want to learn aerobatics, look into a Stick instead of a 4*. A stick will teach you alot and the flat wing will fly inverted very well. Also with the thick airfoil of a Stick wing, they will slow down like a trainer. You can build most of them as a trike or a taildragger.

I suppose it might be obvious, but I think the point is that there is a difference between what is "possible" with a trainer, and what is reasonable to be trying to learn how to do with your trainer .

So while a rather advanced pilot can do all kinds of amazing stuff with a trainer, a beginner shouldn't worry about that quite yet. Get the basics down, wear the tread off the tires doing touch-and-goes, etc. Do basic loop-and-roll stuff, and maybe some short inverted flight, mostly to learn how to handle a plane that isn't upright and level.

Then, when you want to learn how to really do the acrobatics, get a plane that's designed for it. You'll find it easiler to learn the acrobatics on a 2nd or 3rd plane.

Then, for kicks, go back and try your newly larned tricks on the ole trainer. Why? because now you can.

Aha!!! The culprit finally admits to the crime. I tried to find your post when I originally posted.

Here it is:

"Fully mastered the trainer?

With your trainer can you:

Fly inverted? Low inverted?
4 point roll?
Slow roll?
Rolling circle?
Loop?
Avalanche? Loop with a snap on top?
Snap roll?
Tumble?
Stall turn?
Tail slide?
The sportsman or intermediate sequences for IMAC or Pattern?
Land in a cross wind?
Take off in a cross wind?
Short approch?
Fly both left and right pattern?
Spot land where you want it to land?

These are all things a flat bottom wing trainer will do. Have you mastered all these? If so, good. If not.............

Go for a Stick for your next bird. Big Stick, Ultra Stick Tiger Stick, any of the Sticks will teach you alot of things the trainer will not. Look into a Stick prior to going to a Magic or a 4*.

_____________________________

3D Warning

Snap Flip and Hover,

Tony D"




So, Tony, how can I get my trainer to do all of that stuff or just a few things?

Thanks,

chris

Thanks Montague, that's what I was wanting to hear. Now, could you call my wife and tell her that you think I should buy another plane?

Ideally, I would have no problem getting a stick or a 4* but my father-in-law gave me a Goldberg Cub that he has wanted me to finish for years. My wife says I should finish and fly it before I get another plane. Will it be a good step-up from the trainer or should I get a stick or 4* first?

After thinking about it, I think I need a stick because then I'd haavvve to get a 9c to be able to use its crow feature.

Thanks,

chris

Not a chance

Sure, the cub will be a step up from the trainer, not in acrobatics so much(though it might be a little more acrobatic), but it will make you better at takeoffs and landings. Nothing wrong with a cub. However, I suspect you'd be happier with a stick or 4* or simular. Just a guess though.

The Cub might be a bit of a handful as a second plane. (If it's anything like most Cubs.)

It will be considerably harder to take off in particular. Especially because you haven't flown a tail dragger yet. Cubs require diligent rudder control when taking off, and often require a touch of down elevator as they leave the ground. They also require rudder input when turning. (Mine requires opposite aileron when turning due to adverse roll coupling.)

Not trying to discourage you, just trying to get you to buy that Stick first!

But everything I said is true.
Dennis-

take the dihedral out of the wing, and on the elecator, cut the tips away from the stab and make them a counterbalance to the control surfaces. also, do that on the rudder if you can. if you feel a bit adventurous and want to get rid of that self righting thing, put about 1.5-2 degrees of anhedral (wings droop) to conpensate for the pendulum effect. the harrier is a great example of that, except it has a lot more than 2 degrees of anhedral.