Combatpigg im with you,the other post they had going about this,I chose not to say anyting,some planes perform really good with flaperons,I've got 100's of hrs in DH Beaver and they have true flaperons,you lower the flaps 25 deg. you also get 25 degrees ali,there actually consided full span flaps.The plane becomes rock solid,and you can drag um in really slow,and really hard to stall.Another thing about a Beaver its payload is greater on floats then wheels.

NdFrSpeed

Just to clear things a little... I like to use flaps a lot. Not so much for aerobatics, but for slow flight and slow landings. I'm not trying to give anyone the impression that flaps are a bad thing. Was just pointed out a few of their less desireable properties that you have to be careful of so that you have an idea of what to expect. I put flaps on almost any model I can.

Cafeenman, You can sure dish it out, but you can't take it in return. Before you start pointing fingers, you should retrace your steps.

I sent you a PM last night addressing your inability to keep things on a non-personal level. If you have a personal problem with me then I suggest you keep it your problem and put me on ignore so you don't have to be subjected to whatever I have to say.

I think the following is appropriate here: [link=http://web.ukonline.co.uk/thursday.handleigh/humour/monty-python/arguement.htm]Monty Python Arguement sketch[/link]

Guys, Guys,Tis The Holiday Season,time to enjoy not argue,as far as flaps go,on some planes its major improvement on others it really doesnt Help alot.Nothing should ever get personal here,there just different ways of doing things.If you havent been to caffeenmans website you should check it out,hes got some really good ways of doing things.Everybody here can learn from everyone else if they open there mind to it.If your not learning your not trying.I visit every website i can get my hands on,there allways seems to be somethig of interest.


Happy Holidays
NdFrSpeed

CAFEENMAN< I feel your pain, but like I already suggested to you [on the subject of personal stuff], retrace your own steps carefully and you will see who was the catalyst. Back to flaperon control VS seperate flaps, flaperons are simpler, lighter, fewer connections, cheaper,easier to set up and will keep your wingtips flying longer than inboard flaps. Tape some streamers to your wing at the tips, and at the flap/aileron junction and go for a test drive, you will be amazed at how dirty the air is at the junction. What does that translate to? Parasitic drag. If you are stuck on replicating a scale looking control sceme [split flaps]but would like to try full span flaperons that's easy enough to do by paralleling your servos. Beginners should start out with a low percentage mix[10%] of elevator travel, and work the mix percentage up gradually with test flights.

Merry Christmas CombatPigg. And also to your dad. [8D]

i just read this whole thread and i disagree with what you guys are saying when you talk about the AOA. I thought flaps increased the CAMBER of the wing and had no affect on the angle of attack. i could be wrong, but i am 90% sure that i'm right. also, crow allows you to fly at much higher AOA than with conventional flaps because the risk of tip stall (and crashed plane) is much lower. my 2 cents, please correct me if i'm wrong

Yes, it does increase the camber.

http://142.26.194.131/aerodynamics1/controls/Page5.html

From Embry-Riddle:

http://www.erau.edu/er/newsmedia/articles/wp1.html

HI SHERM172K! The change in AOA is diagramatical only, in practice when your flaps are deployed you should be able to fly around level with LESS AOA than if you were flapless. Try coupling the elevator to the flaps with a 10% mix and see how you like it, take note of how much better your plane can track through consecutive loops, and if you like doing spins your plane will hang in the air better. I have never seen this control sceme do anything but good on aerobatic models, I use it on everything from a GOLDBERG ULTIMATE to my little scratch built fun fly planes.

Sheeewwww weeeee! Getting hot in here!! I see both sides of the AOA issue. When Flaps are deployed, the AOA changes to a more positive attitude in terms of wing camber! However, the aircraft will tend to pitch down. Hence the steeper approach without increasing speed. I can remember from my student pilot days! Coming in fast and high in a 152. Would dump flaps and the nose would pitch over, with no altitude loss. Could side slip that aircraft and she would fall like a rock and not go over 60 kts!

I am normally very game for a good heated debate with lots of passion.

All I see in this thread (which I have been following closely), is a very broad sort of "shotgun" approach to a topic of whose nature I am not certain... spraying out a whole lot of statements that pepper the thread with a whole lot of small impacts, but nothing really you can put your finger on.

Is there even any disagreement here? Everyone seems to be saying completely different things with no real bearing on other people's statements.

Basically, are people putting on a "game face" without there being any game to play? One of the "rules" about debates is that outside of the debate topic there are no hard feelings. No grudges. The Flapperons debate was pretty well concluded with everyone agreeing to disagree, and the "old timers" can sit back and call the 3D enthusiasts in the beginner's forum "misinformed", and the 3D enthusiasts in beginners forum can call the "General" enthusiasts in the beginners forum "traditionalists". Well, so be it.

BUT (and I know it is wrong to start a sentence with BUT).... it is a mistake to make things personal.... Trust me on this. I have 30 years living experience, and 12 of those years on things like arpanet, nntp, BB's, ethernet, gopher, talk, irc (before there were colour monitors), etc. I have seen what happens when things get personal in an online forum. No-one wins. If everyone in the world agreed, it would be a boring place to be... So, on that note, keep things in perspective ... people always have differences, it is how you deal with them that projects your personality.

Well, I was on my high horse for that one.... Good thing I have a really high horse.

FWIW, the only person on an online forum that is worse than a person with a grudge, is the person who tries to be philosophical about it and tells people to hug and make up ;-)

gus

-----
... if only
I refuse to have a battle of wits with a person who is unarmed.

I know that I'm going to regret getting involved here, but I think some additional information is in order.
Angle of attack is the angle of the center of the camber line [the "camber line" is a line from the trailing edge to the leading edge] relative to the direction the wing is traveling through the air mass. Note that a wing with "0" angle of attack will not produce lift and it makes no difference what the airfoil shape is. On a flat bottom wing like the "Clark-Y" found in many trainers the camber line does not follow the bottom of the wing, it goes from the trailing edge to a bit more than 1/2 way up the leading edge. This airfoil at "0" AOA will appear to be going down hill.
Now how ailerons function is often not understood. They do not "deflect" airflow, what they do is change the shape of the airfoil, and there for the location of the camber line. If we move the aileron down, the camber line at the leading edge stays in the same place, but at the trailing edge it goes down. The shape of the airfoil is now known as under-cambered, the change in the shape of the airfoil combined with the increase in AOA will cause the wing to rise.
Flaps do almost the same thing, in the same way, as ailerons with some exceptions. They continue to produce lift depending on the airfoil shape to about 20- degrees of deflection, after that they rapidly increase drag with very little increase in lift. The reason that this happens is that at the AOA and severe under camber shape the airflow can no longer remain laminar over the flap and "burbles" or stalls. The advantage to this is the extra drag combined with extra lift will allow for very steep and slow approaches, it's also the reason more than 15 degrees of flap is never used for take off.
Now here is the story with flaperons. This is an attempt to combine to two and there are advantages if done carefully. Extra lift can be had, but if the aileron is deflected to the point that the airflow "burbles", the entire wing control surface will be stalled and there will be a tremendous increase in drag on that wing, resulting in an uncontrollable snap. Many combat and aerobatic pilots slave the flaperons to the elevator to tighten loops, or to the rudder to eliminate pitch coupling in knife edge. Experiment with it and have fun, it's the whole reason we do this. .

Yes tis the season. Is it safe to come out yet??? I think I'll do a little searching of posts before I ask again. Thanks to all that responded. Being new to this hobby, it looks like I have quite a bit of studying to do

Would it be inappropriate to try flaperons on a PT-40 MK11 trainer?

go for them,its easy to do with two servos and the right radio. Should be entertaining.

You will have to do some significant modifications to the wing (install a second wing-servo) to implement flaperons. It would be a good plane to try play with things like flaperons, BUT, it really does not need them. The flat bottomed airfoil has no problems with slow landings, etc.

gus

Informative debate from 2 sides is great, but arguing is dumb. There's an old saying:

Fighting on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded" - Joe