I've been reading where flaps make it easier to land your plane. Then I start reading about flaperons (sp?). what are they, how do they work and how can they be applied to a venture 60 by BTE products.

Thanks in advance
Gary

My friend, you have opened a can of worms Better do a quick search

A flaperon is a combined flap/aileron. They are setup primarily with computer mixing but can also be done mechanically. It requires 2 servos (one for each surface). They are used on gliders and some flying wings (I think). Generally speaking they aren't used in sport models. If I had to venture a guess I'd say that they probably greatly increase you chance of stalling one side of the wing and crashing. Consider this scenario:

You're setting up for landing, and you deploy the flaperons. As you turn onto final the aileron at the inside of the turn (up) returns the airfoil essentially to it's original shape. Bang! The wing stalls and you have a bunch of sticks. Now I now that someone will say flaperons or not this could happen, and they're right. But the flaperons will make it much much worse and more likely to happen.

Conversely, if you consider the down flaperon, at some angle it stops providing lift and just turns into a spoiler. That'll give you at a minimum a lot of adverse yaw and at a maximum control reversal.

Not touching this one with a 10 ft. pole

If we are only talking about landing the plane then it will be ailerons kicking down as flaps (or with flaps) while still functioning as ailerons.

But there could be a lot more to it than that once you advance on past landing.

I have used them, but in the future, i will stick to seperate Flaps/Ailerons.

PS, they do not make it "Easier" to land your plane. They WILL allow your plane to fly slower, but there's still that risk of stalling one wing, And that has happened to me. Lost a good plane

Didn't mean to stir the pot all. Just got on here not too long ago and thought I'd ask. I think I'll stay away from this issue in the future. Thanks to all who responded.

The Venture 60 lands so nice and easy I don't know why one needs flaps,a fun thing is to add air brakes,it will elevator to a landing.

No problem, A lot of people use them, and many swear by them. I find that they work better on some planes than others. Don't ever be afraid to ask a question here. Some of our best threads were almost Knock-Down-Drag-out-fights! LOL

Bottom line is: I love using Flaps. It's just that I personally have found that I like seperate, inboard Flaps better than Flapperons.

Just to add some background.... Flapperons are a "feature" of many computer radios nowadays that allows you (when you have the left and right aileron servos on seperate channels) to "mix" them so that both ailerons move down to behave like flaps. Essentially, the flappeon mix moves the "neutral" position of the ailerons. What this allows is for a flap like surface without actually having flaps.

The reason for the references to "stirring pots", and "10 foot poles" is because there was recently a very heated debate about what flapperons actually are. It seems that "flapperons" is a term that (some people suggest) has taken on a new meaning in the world of RC 3D. Thus, there is a somewhat unsettled atmosphere when people mention them now. My personality is one that likes to make jest of such things, so..... I hereby make jest of the serious "flapperon debate".

There is also it seems some serious debate about the spelling of such control surfaces. Some references have 2 'p's, and others have just 1. Go figure!

As for how flapperons affect the flight of your plane, well, every plane is different. Some planes respond well to flaps, some planes don't. Sometimes planes nose up, and other planes nose down. You will need to try them for yourself on your particular plane to see if they are good for you.

gus

P.S. here is what was left of the debate once the moderators had removed the more tasty sections...... ;-)
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1322017/tm.htm
and
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1341341/tm.htm

jzink and Southern Touch were joking. There was some heated debate just a week or so ago about the subject of "Flaperons". (I stuck a link down below if you're interested.)

You're welcome to ask questions on almost any subject and we're happy to answer. Keep in mind, if you do a "Search" you will likely find a LOT of info quickly. (I searched for "flaperons" trying to find the link below, and came up with dozens and dozens of threads.)

Flaperons are mixing ailerons to act as flaps. Generally requires separate aileron servos and a computer radio.
ie Flap ailerons. This should help you determine many of the euphemisms surrounding control functions, like "Elevons" "Spoilerons".... Try figuring this one out, "Ruddervator".

Have fun.
Dennis-




http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_13...322017#1322017

HI GJAUBIN! Flaperons will lower your stall speed and give you more margin for error when you slow your plane down. Planes that don't have much surface area on the flaps don't stand to benefit as much from switching to flaperons for aerobatic purposes. A typical 40 size fun fly sport plane has flaps with a 3 or 4" chord. Think about building yourself a set of large flaps if your plane isn't already so equipped, a 1/4 by 1/4 hard balsa stick framework will do. If you would like to get maximum benefit from switching to flaperon mode, couple them to your elevator so the elevator moves opposite to the flaps, this will wake up some mediocre performing planes and make them more fun. I fly in this mode always except for hovering and knife edge, and that's when you want your plane to be more sedate.

Flaps RAISE the angle of attack of the wing while creating more lift and more drag. So, using flaps actually puts you closer to a stall which is what happened to MinnFlyer apparenty. The best flight condition you can have is washout at the tips which lowers the angle of attack thereby moving the tips further from a stall and lessening the chances of having a tip stall and rolling your plane into the ground.

Unfortunately, flaperons give you a very bad condition by putting you close to a stall. So by using separate flaps and ailerons (which are still called flaperons if they're mixed as far as I know) you can use CROW mixing instead. That RAISES the ailerons and lowers the angle of attack, but lowers the flaps and provides more lift. Sort of the best of both worlds. It also slows your plane considerably.

I've used flaperons on a few planes and don't like them for landing either. THe only way I'll use them is if I limit the flap movement so I have plenty of aileron authority with the flaps deployed, but even then I'm treading dangerously. Of course if you fly a 1 1/2 lb 3D plane then it doesn't matter much what you do because they're so light and easy to fly that you can get away with a lot of things that you could never get away with flying a real airplane.

Man.. that was a darn good thread.

PS. A computer radio makes it easy, but you can also make a mechanical mixer to achieve flaperons if you don't have a computer TX.

CAFEENMAN! Explain to me how switching from a symetric airfoil to a flat bottom airfoil with a flip of a switch puts me closer to a stall? Switching to FLAPERONS DECREASES my AOA! Come watch me land on a picnic table sometime[X(]!P.S. WASHOUT is for gliders and "rightsideupinsidelooponlykindsofguys".

trust me guys, I'm not afraid to stir the pot. Just ask my wife. I think I'll stay away for now until I find someone at the field who uses flaps and see if they will benefit me.

On to the next question. All this talk about stalls, how does one stall a wing or tip? Do you mean there is not enough lift on one side of the plane and therefore one side of the plane rolls?

When you have a wing to stall or a "tip stall" its exactly what you said. One of the wings stop flying before the other one does. And the airplane stalls on that wing usually resulting in a snap kind of motion.

HI GJAUBIN! One of the most difficult things to see is when you are flying too slowly to stay airborn. When you are flying downwind it is more dangerous to fly slowly because you have less wind flowing front-to-back past your wing. You have to experiment up high with stalling your wing on purpose so that you can gauge what your minimum speed needs to be. It takes a trained eye to see when youv'e reached that minimum speed. The controls will get less responsive as a warning. Your model should be balanced laterally to help make sure that stalls aren't as much wingtip stalls as they are" nose down "stalls. Not reacting soon enough with the throttle has sent a lot of planes to the landfill.

Since the original subject was about Venture 60's and flaperons... what about Venture 60's and flaps? I find true flaps to be much more intriguing than flaperons, so I was wondering how the Venture would behave with actual flaps... take perhaps the inner 1/3 of the aileron surfaces to be flaps, using the torque-rod setup to control them simultaneously, and then either twin servos in the wings to handle the actual ailerons, or just a second servo and a flexible pushrod arrangement to drive the ailerons off of that single servo (so you can't play funny games with the ailerons... hopefully you won't need to, since you've got flaps!).

Would the outer 2/3 of each aileron give you enough control? Would the inner 1/3 be enough flap area?

How much better are flaps if you set them up such that they create a gap when they deploy (robart hinge point at an angle or one of those "fake fowler" hinges on the underside of the wing) vs. just using the aileron hinging and torque rods?

-Rick

Because the angle of attack is measured from the center of the TE through the center of the LE. WHen you drop the flaps, you lower the center of the TE and thus increase the AoA. Don't take my word for it like you always do... ask someone else.

I'd try and quote what my Ultra Stick 40 says in it's manual about flaps since it's got all that stuff, but I've learned not to quote manuals full of errors and end up looking stupid. I'll sit this thread out like I did the last one on flaps, and just read and learn some more. I'm starting to see where I was told I could use my 6 channel JR 631 and get crow out of it and maybe not miss out on too much? Then again, my instructor has an 8103 with the plastic still on the display for $250... - Joe

CAFEENMAN< THANKS for the geometry lesson. The fact is simple, when I'm on final with my coupled flaps, you can actually see the difference in low speed handling VS a no flaperon landing. I do not subscribe to using a predetermined flap "kick down" via a switch, to be smooth and gentle for all flying conditions nothing beats being coupled.to the elevator. I even saved an airplane with a stripped elevator servo by flying in flaperon mode. I had no pitch control otherwise. With a moderate amount of flap travel you transform a stunt wing into a trainer wing, and that is having the best of both worlds. A well balanced setup can actually be "groovier" in level flight than elevator alone, just ask the controlline stunt guys. The AOA change produces a NOSE DOWN tendency in a properly setup system, the center of lift shifts aft. As far as those of you who fly "REAL" airplanes are concerned, my DAD who flew 84 missions over GERMANY in a P47 and had considerable stick time in a P51 after the war wonders if you move your lips much when you make those ZOOMING noises while you fly your "REAL" planes?

You should have learned geometry in school, but you're welcome.

No one is debating that an aircraft can fly slower with the flaps down. All I said was that it raises the angle of attack which is correct.

Seems reasonable to me. I put flaps on a knob so I can put them anywhere I want.

Maintenance and pre-flights will prevent a lot of problems.

Regardless, lowering flaps raises the angle of attack. You've mixed in some features to counter that which sounds good.

Wow! What have you done?

Your attempts to be insulting are amusing. You come off better when you simply stick the subject instead of trying to make it personal.

"Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?"

So, there I was... walking through the forest, spitting in ths fish's mouth, trying to keep it alive.