Mouse,

I don't know what plane you are flying, but if, when you bank the plane immediately goes nose down, I would check your Center of Gravity... Sounds to me like you might just be nose heavy. Either that, or you are flying VERY slowly.... By standing the plane up on its wing (the beginneers crank and yank turn) you are not teaching yourself a thing plus you are really putting a heavy G load on your airframe for no really good reason. I kid my students that I am going to put pylon racing numbers on their wings if they don't stop doing those type turns. The purpose of the flying part is to really control the airplane, not just bang the sticks to their stops and hope something good happens. A 45 degree angle of bank is all you need.. it will give you a nice wide turn and the time to realize exactly what your inputs are doing. As I said earlier.. bank..add in elevator to begin turn and maintain altitude, then when turn is complete, opposite aileron to be on heading... You can do it !!!

Deadstik....[8D]

This could be fun but in the good old day's when I was young . My instructor a ww11 jokey had me point my wing at a spot on the ground at 60 deg. and a 720 and come out at same alt. and the exact heading that I entered. With out rudder it could have been HELL.

Opposite rudder in a turn???? Not likely...

But I'm glad to read some people actually USE their rudder! Most pilots on my club would be much better off saving the weight and expence of the extra sevo.... they never use it anyway......

Then why should you learn what it can do, even when you're not flying pattern or 3D or something? You can fly most planes without it, can't you?
Well, I've seen pretty experienced pilots total their beautiful (mostly low-wing) planes when something catastrofic happend like their engine quitting, then trying to turn it back to the field by banking into a sharp turn and adding lots of elevator, and then realising they were too low to make the turn. Nothing they could do about it?

Using rudder in the direction of a turn makes the turn much more effective, meaning you won't need as much altitude to turn. This is not a minor effect, the difference is huge, especially on faster, havier planes. The trick is to bank the plane in the turn and than "help" it with rudder, while at the same time trying to fly just above stall speed. This is the most effective strategy and I am sure a lot of planes could have been saved this way. I always teach my students this as soon as possible. Besides that, it is never bad to fool around with your controls to see how the plane reacts, it will make you a better pilot. Just practice it up high.

Have fun!

This is why you see some pattern guys fly helis . . . you MUST use the rudder - no choice! This is particullarly true if you don't use a Head-Hold gyro . . .

Regards,

I know this isn't a heli forum but I just wanted to point out that in forward flight with a heading hold gyro you actually use the rudder a lot more than with a rate gyro. Not true in the hover though!

And yes, since I started flying helis I use the rudder a lot more in my planes too.

I have used it a lot more due to helis too, but then I didn't use a gyro in helis for the first 20 years of flying it. Love doing the cub, makes you do the rudder to fly it right. Most of my friends couple them in the computer, not me. I like to use it manually on everything. Makes you a better pilot.

Simplisticly: A heading hold gyro... tries to maintain a compass course. A rate gyro tries to limit the rate of change of rotation.

So...

Yes, the heading hold will result in the tail of the heli or airplane "locking" on a chosen direction. (not very good for a plane at all... I can't think of a good use for it) and n forward flight of the heli... its best to turn heading hold function off. (they have that option...)

If you are GOOD at flying a heli... let the rate gyro have full tailroto cntrol for a while. Watch the rate of yaw slowly increase in hover. (that will prove your tailrottor is trimmed for a different main rotor load than your steady state hover)

Just a suggestion: Try learning to fly, and turn using rudder and elevator FIRST, then start using the ailerons later, you'll be a better flyer in the long run.



Jetts

It's a long time since I've flown small aircraft, but regarding the use of rudder in full scale in flight it's only required to be used in light aircraft to counter P (propeller) effect, i.e., the effect on the rudder of the twisting airflow generated by the prop. The wash from a propeller is much wider than the diameter of the propeller. Opposite rudder can be used to sideslip in flight to increase the descent rate.

There is also propeller torque effect; the twisting against the rotation of the prop by the fuselage. That's why helicopters have a tail rotor, to prevent the fuselage turning instead of the main rotor. Some WWII fighter aircraft had torque effect so great that the down side tyre was only good for a few take offs and then was changed with the opposite.

Many light twins have contra rotating props, i.e., one clockwise and one counter clockwise, so P effect is not an issue. If they don't, then it will still have an effect from one or the other engine, but not both.

The only other time it is used in flight is to keep the aircraft straight when landing in a X wind; up aileron (down wing) to wind which will cause the aircraft to turn into wind if not kept straight by opposite rudder. The other technique used in X wind landings is the 'kick straight method' which is not nearly as precise as the 'crabbing' method.

Flying a jet, the only occasions on which rudder is used are X wind landings and engine out operations, except for single engine jets when it's only used for X wind landings. There is no P effect with jets.

This is all a very simplistic discussion. If you get into aerodynamics, and I mean heavy aerodynamics, then I'm not sure too many people understand it completely, regardless of their qualifications.


There is no secondary effect of ailerons as there is with rudder. Ailerons turn the aircraft. Rudder yaws the aircraft, but in so doing, one wing travels faster than the other, generates more lift, and the aircraft turns as a result, but generally not as effectively as with ailerons. The rudder is also effective down to very low speeds, and that's why it's used in stall turns.

's used in stall turns.

Very nice conclusion and well said, that is exactly the truth!Do you fly full scale aircraft or only r/c?

There is a secondary effect of ailerons, it is yaw.

Also you do need the rudder for things other than the 'p' factor. It is true that you do not use them in a jet as much as you do in a tail dragger, but you still have to use them every time you turn!

I have a little different opinion on this one.
During rudder yaw, the effect on pitch and roll is not due to air over one wing being faster than the other. If this was true then the effect would go away after establishing knife edge flight.

The profile of the fuselage plays a big part in this. The airflow traversion the fuselage usually causes a plane with a high aft canopy deck will pitch more to the belly than one with a low aft deck because the fuselage top and bottom are developing different levels of lift. This will cause a pitch and a roll moment that is more significant that the airflow differential over the wings.

Ailerons alone, on MOST planes = adverse yaw.
Rudder causes yaw, causing the wing to lift + yaw = bank = turn. Ailerons will only bank a plane, but if you then ad some "up" elevator (Which is now the Rudder) the plane "turns". If you use just ailerons with a flat wing like a quickie 500, and don't pull in some "up" elevator, your going in-fast!
Please explain if I'm wrong here- it's worked that way for years, and if I'm all wet on this, I need to tell my planes.

Jetts

Japanflyer, have you flown full scale airplanes? All the jets I fly and twins and turbo props use the rudder a lot. I come back with sore legs at times in the light twin if I am doing low level slow work. In any full scale, if you have passengers in the back and you don't use the rudder in your turns, they are all going to be puking when you land. Our jet has a Yaw damp that you turn on as soon as you lift off. If the pilot doesn't use the rudder correctly in a turn, the yaw damp takes care of it for you.

P factor isn't the airflow around the airframe hitting the tail, that is spiraling slip stream. P factor is pretty easy to see if you take a model plane prop and put it on a stick. Hold the stick horizontally and imagine it spinning. Both blades take the same bite of air. Now, tip it back like it is climbing. The plane doesn't climb at the same angle that the stick is pitched up, so the relative wind going through the prop is at a flatter angle. From the back, you can see the blade on the right takes a larger bite of air, and the left blade is almost flat compared to the relative wind.

I'll PM you Ed. May not be for a few days though.

It's not normally necessary to use rudder in a turn, as a coordinated turn isn't absolutely necessary, but, if anything, you should be applying rudder in the same direction as the turn, not opposite, to get a coordinated turn.

The wing on the outside of the turn has the aileron in the down position, that creates greater lift, hence the model rolls towards the turn, but greater lift = greater drag, so the plane tends to yaw away from the turn, which can be corrected by moving the rudder into the turn.

If you move the rudder away from the turn that's a good way to get into spin if you do it enough!

Of course, you should also be giving up elevator to make the plane 'climb' into the turn.

-David C.