I learned to fly partly in real life, but I really gained most of my skills from using a simulator. It was Microsoft Flight Sim verison 4 on a 486 (66mhz processor). 16 colors and 2 joysticks! Now I fly helis and airplanes in real life and I use real flight deluxe very often. When I started, I had to fly the simulator, because I wasn't old enough to drive myself to the field. It was either figure out a way to fly on the computer, or fly once every other week when I could talk my parents into taking me. So, I found a way to get somewhat crude equipment to work.

My opinion about simulators is that you have to want to use them. They can be very valuable tools, but if you really don't want to use it, you can find plenty of excuses as to why you are wasting your time. On the other hand, take two enthusiastic and open-minded pilots who are willing to utilize all available resources, and give them identical resources, but suppliment one with a simulator. In the end, you will have a good pilot and a better pilot.

I find that most of the people who complain about simulators fit into a few personality profiles.
Some have a very short attention span, and can't sit still long enough.

Option 1:
Many (very many!) are not capable of operating computers confidently, and they get discouraged because they cannot understand how to make the program do what they want it to do. Some of these types ask for help, and they do fine. Others are too proud, and are just sim haters for life. (my dad is a prime example... he won't have anything to do with them because he just gets so frustrated with configuring the programs). A similar problem in this situation is getting the hardware to work; often getting a simulator to run really conveniently takes a lot of creativity and experimentation (with different controler configurations etc), and some folks just can't handle that. In addition, some don't realize that they have access to the equipment, and fall into this category.

Option 2:
Some expect the simulator to teach them how to fly; this doesn't happen. You teach yourself how to fly, and the simulator is just a method of doing so. When they "play" on the simulator, they complain because it isn't improving their flying skills. There is a big difference in just bumming around crashing and doing useful training exercises to improve your skills. Flight training with a sim is the takes creativity too; you have to utilize the benefits and suppliment the downfalls accordingly. A good example is landing orientation. It is very difficult to learn to set up a landing approach on a simulator, because you have no peripheral vision, or spatial orientation (which way your head is pointed, and which way your feet are pointed). Thus, finding the runway can be impossible unless your brain is capable of keeping up with where you are in the sky based on sky textures. I was flying sims for 5 years or so (and landing RC planes in real life) from the RC perspective before my simple mind was capable of such a calculation. If you learn quickly, you might be able to do this sooner. The simulator has some really good areas too; you can gain uncanny orientation if you use the simulator properly... think of rolling circles in airplanes, and piroetting flips in helicopters. The only thing between your properly set up machine flying figure 8s and your machine flying these manuvers is knowing which way to move the stick when it is upside down, right side up, and everywhere in between.

Option 3:
Another profile is the type of people who just enjoy being outside; you can't smell fresh air as easily at your computer as you can in the real world.

I'd say most simulator complainers fit into one of these categories.

Either way, it is just a hobby; if someone is insecure about simulators, or doesn't enjoy them for whatever reason, then that person shouldn't use them. We do this to have fun, right?

Jared,

You have the wrong settings on your sim. If you are using G2 you can see the runway when you are landing. You probably have the zoom to aircraft set. With G2 I can lineup with a tree and come straight down on the runway, just like I do at our field. I never take my eyes off the airplane. And I can lineup with the runway every time.

As far as flight sims, people will agree and disagree. I had the opportinuty with working on the E6 and B1B simulators in realk life. So I do know that even real pilots use sims to tech them how to fly a particular plane. Some states even have simulators to teach people how to drive, or sims for cops to teach them different aspects of thier training.

Sims are all around us!!! (Not refering to the game the Sims either!)

Actually, I'm using the deluxe version. I am not sure if it has the "see the ground" feature (I think that is the one you are talking about) or not. I've flown with that feature on G2 on a friend's machine, and I found that it was kind of a strange zoom perspective. While it makes for easier ground reference, I found that it was kind of tricky to judge incoming speed. The plane's size doesn't change at a proportional rate like it does either in real life or in a conventional zoom display. I guess whatever you get used to is the easiest, and I've been used to standard zoom. Dave Brown's simulator from way back helped this problem (and the problem of no sky texture) by supplying little tick marks in each direction so you could see how fast you were moving. They also provided a simple aerial view of the flying area with relative location to the runway, and a vertical cross section of the sky to indiate altitude. G2 is definitely super cool, but it takes a super cool computer to run it too; at least by my cheap standards.

I have to reload my Deluxe and order a new G2 disc, mine is scratched. But, the zoom you describe doesn't sound like the one I use. Granted speed may be hard to tell when landing, but that's also hard for me tell on my real plane when it is heaeded towards me. I use the throttle location as an indicator.

I will have to admit, I have not used the Dave Brown so I can't really coment on it. But that last flight sim I used other than G2, was on a Commadore 64, that tells ya a lot

I was running G2 real well on a 750mhz machine, can pick them up real cheap now.

See ya,
Randy

Years ago I tried to learn R/C on my own and never really succeded. I gave it up A few years later I tried it again this time joining a club and useing one of their instructors. This time I learned and eventually became an instructor myself.
I am now going to take on a helicopter. About a month or so ago while at the hobby shop picking up all the goodies to make my Scadue 30 fly I bought the G2 simulator. I have found a local instuctor to help with the setup and the actual flying........when the time comes. I have tried to get in about 30-45 mins of sim time every other day since getting the G-2. I can do a respectable nose in hover, have very little problems making the heli go where I want it to and recently tried a little wild stuff inverted flight and rolls None of this happened without a generous use of the spacebar, each time would have been an expensive repair job or a new heli And the plane are fun to fly too!

Gene

Love them sims I have spent many hours on Fighter ace, Combat flight sim , Dawn of Aces, Flight sim 98, Flight sim 2000, Real flight deluxe, Real flight G2. I"m sure all that sim time made my flying instinctive ,and more relaxed.

Kitbasher,

Yes, playing those sims are great. We used to have partys and hook about 8 computers together and fly combat missions.

Me and one of my flying buddies were the "aces". How we got so many kills, is we would immediately go to the outside view and fly the sims like an R/C plan, till time to "lock-on". It's very hard to outfly someone like that...But, I hadn't to fly against my buddy, I would always slit-s right into the ground trying to follow him


Loads of fun! Wish I could still do it.....

When I did a lot more instructing I found that the kids/guys who played with RC cars or flight sims were a LOT easier to teach. They already had the reverse control syndrome taken care of...

I think Jared is absolutely right on the negatives of Sims. I fit in option#3. For me, I just thought the sim was boring, but I loved every minute of real flying. I practiced on the sim some, thinking it would save some airplanes, but then I got a U.S. Aircore (indestructable) plane, and it was no contest, be outside really flying or sitting at a computer pretending to!

Now I've graduated from the trainer, but the things I'm working on learning aren't easy to learn from the sim. The first is at my field, you need to fly over trees, and I find that really scary, but a sim can't help. Second, I want to fly higher, which I also find scary (I'm afraid of heights), and the sim can't really help with that!

I will practice new aerobatic manuevers a bit on the sim before attempting at the field, though.

I've had many beginners come to me for instruction after they have practiced for sometimes a year or more with a sim. I have to say that the sim did more damage than good because apparently they had no idea on how to fly and taught themselves a bunch of bad habits and concepts which had to be unlearned.

The sims are so advanced now, I wonder how difficult it would be to add a program that actually orally instructs the students? I mean the G2 has hecklers now, why not a voice telling the students what he is doing wrong on the sticks. For example the students I've taught all tend to bang the sticks around rather than using nice slow and smooth movements. Couldn't they program a sim to tell the student to slow down his stick movements and just about everything that a live instructor tells his student?

Incidently, I have watched several instructors who barely say anything to their students, therefore, a sim should be able to be programmed to do a better job than some live and much too quiet instructors.

Just a thought.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

fliers one,

Actually G2 does do that. It will display a controller graphic on the screen and you can watch the stick movements of instructor doing maneuvers like loops, spins etc..

It will also describe each maneuver talking you thru it.

real nice, if you haven't seen the updates....

Magnum,
I did not know that. Along with rolls and loops, does that mean that the G2 orally talk the student through on how to make basic turns like a live instructor does? Is that a relatively new program? Because if the students who came to me used it, it didn't help much, if at all.

One thing that isn't available yet is a sim with a hand to give some students a much needed dope slap in back of the head when they can't seem to get it right. Just kidding.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.mfarchive.modelstuff.co.uk/mf045/postbox.htm

My version that had that is not loaded right now. SO I can check it for you. I can't remember if it was actually G2 or one of the expansion packs that gave that.

But yes, it does talk you through some of the basics. You can pick several.

Hehe dope slap in the back of the head. That's got my vote, gives new meaning to force feedback joysticks.

As for my training...no sim used...just a patient club trainer with a buddy box.

Since soloing, I've used various sim programs. Other than learning what the left and right sticks do on the box...sims did not come close to the "memory" learning of the real thing. For my money (which I'd rather spend on the real thing - airplane kits and parts), a good club trainer and real "air time" with a buddy box are the most effective ways to learn.

I was soloing the first day of lessons...granted, I wasn't doing heavy aerobics (just standard level figure eight patterns and touch and go's) but I could safely and confidently drive the airplane where I wanted it to go.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the Youth coment I gess I am still a kid at 41. Maybe I"ll still play with toy planes when I get old.

Kitbasher,

I ain't far behind ya (39). I am still trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up!

I learned to fly using the free flight simulator FMS. I got to where I could fly around inverted, and consistanly land on the runway. Once I finally got my plane in the air (LT-40) not once did the instructor have to take over the controls in the normal flying process. The instructor was still a huge help in performing the the first 4 or 5 landings. They were all deadsticks due to the clunk being stuck in the front of the tank. I think I soloed on my third or fourth day at the field, thanks to FMS.

I didnt learn on a sim, in fact I only used it once for about 30 minutes. But the things I did on it gave me some courage to try them on my own plane in real life. I think its very useful to experiment with new moves and just to see what pushing the sticks in a new way will do. And "spacebar" is wonderful!!!

As a professional R/C flight instructor, I see many students who have had some simulator experience prior to attending my school and I have learned the following:

1. It takes many hours of flying simulators to be very helpfull and reduce the normal stick time with the real models required to solo. I don't see much influence unless the student has at least 100 hours or so on a simulator.
2. The main positive thing I do see, is it helps with the left-right orientation, especially when in the final approach for landing. Students with over 100 hours on a simulator will solo in about half the time it would normally take them to solo if they had no simulator experience because they are not so prone to making left-right mistakes on final.
3. Simulators are good for practicing "up-and-away maneuvers". Example: A newly soloed student was having a bit of fright when trying to fly his model airplane inverted for long periods. He practiced a whole lot of inverted flying on his simulator for a week and was much better at flying inverted the next time he was out at the flying field with his model airplane.
4. Some bad habits can be acquired, (especially when it comes to landing), which have to be "trained out of them" at my school. Precision landings are learned step-by-step, and without an instructor taking them through the steps, wrong, (or less effective) strategies can be learned. Of course this applies to flying real model airplanes as well.
5. Overall, they do much more good than harm and I encourage anyone to use them as a training aid.

I feel that I could train a student on a simulator by putting them through the same repetitions of the landing sequence that I do with the real models. It might take more stick time to do it, and the student would still need at least a few instructed landings with a real model, but I'm sure it would greatly reduce their time to solo.

Those are my thoughts regarding the use of R/C simulators.

Ray Smith
Owner, Hobbies Aloft R/C Flight School

I STARTED IN RC WAY BACK IN 1989,I WENT THROUGH 3 INSTRUCTORS BEFORE I WAS GIVEN MY SOLO CERTIFICATION.I FELT THE 1ST INSTRUCTOR LOST INTREST IN TEACHING ME AND I FELT I WAS PLACED ON THE SIDE LINE.THEN I ATTENDED A FLIGHT SCHOOL, WITHIN A WEEK I WAS FLYING MY TRAINER ON MY OWN. AFTER ATTENDING THE FLIGHT SCHOOL MY 3RD INSTRUCTOR SOLOED ME AFTER ONLY ONE FLIGHT.THAT WAS IN 1995.NOW I LIKE TO USE THE G-2 SIM WITH ALL IT UP DATES TO KEEP IN PRACTICE.RIGHT NOW DURING THE WINTER MONTHS ITS HARD TO GET TO THE FIELD TO FLY,THERE ARE MEMBERS IN MY CLUB WHO ARE TRYING TO FLY AS MUCH AS THEY CAN.BUT I DONT FIND ANY FUN IN GOING OUT A FREEZING TO DEATH JUST TO HAVE FUN. RADIO CONTROL IS SAPOSE TO BE FUN.NOW WHEN I CANT FLY IN THE WINTER MONTHS AT MY CLUBS FIELD, I FLY AT HOME ON MY RF G-2 SIM,I DO THIS EVERY DAY WHEN I GET A CHANCE, BUT IM NOT TRYING TO GET IN THE HABIT OF HITTING THE SPACE BAR TO GET OUT OF A BAD SITUATION.THAT WAY WHEN I FLY AT THE FIELD, I HAVE TO THINK A HEAD AND CONCENTRATE ON WHAT IM DOING.LIKE THE GUY SAID IN APOCOLIPS NOW,"I LOVE THE SMELL OF NAPALM IN THE MORNING! THATS SMELLS LIKE VICTORY." THAT HOW I FEEL ABOUT SIMS- YOU DONT GET TO SMELL THE SMELL OF BURNED ENGINE OIL. THATS WHAT SIMS TAKE AWAY.
NEDYOB

I used a sim to learn on the winter before I started and I think it made a BIG difference. I solo'd in 2 days without a problem. I also had a great instructor though (no replacement for that).

The biggest thing the sim does is to teach your brain which way to move the sticks...beyond that they not much use so I wouldn't spend a great deal of money on one...try to rent or borrow one if you can.

When newbies come to me for help, it seems even though they have even a many, many hours of sim practice, they didn't seem to learn much, if anything at all. But once they get some hands-on real model training and then go back to the sim, they know the correct way to fly and then what to practice. That's when the sim practice really helps.

I don't have to say word about orientation reversal when I train newbies and they learn how to fly facing the plane with no problems. It doesn't matter if they had any previous sim time or any RC flying experience at all. What I tell them is to push the stick left and right on a continuing basis and then when they face the plane coming at them they push the stick left or right on command, it soon becomes second nature and control reversal problems seldom, if ever happens.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

When I started, 1953, there were no flight sims or buddy boxes. The radios were, for the most part, home made or kit built. I built mine in a high school electronics class and had a hard time learning to fly (rudder only).

I think part of what made it hard was not knowing if you did something wrong or if the radio just quit. It was still just as much fun!

I had to teach myself to fly R/C way back in 1974-had a big foam glider with a 2ch.Futaba radio and a Cox .049 for power-that was alot of fun-and it did not seem to take long to learn.I have a flight sim but it is not for R/C-it is Falcon 4.0-the F-16 sim.I just like the F-16 and I fly it a lot.It may help with R/C-maybe not but it sure is fun.


Jackjet

I'm new to this hobby and thought I would try a flight simulator rather than crash my new toy! I don't rate the simulator as a learning tool as I found it difficult to reference my plane to the horizon so I can't tell how high the plane is and where in relation to the "airfield" the plane is. I guess once I have learned to fly my model, I can use the simulator as a practise tool rather than a learning tool....although I must admit, it's still great fun to crash the sim generated turbine powered Sabre!