I got my son a Park Zone Slo-V trainer for Christmas. He is very good at flying and would like a second plane. I suggested an electic plane with ailerons, but he is interested in also checking out a fuel powered plane. Can someone give me the pluses and minuses of fuel v. electric?

Nitro ( "fuel" ) planes have much higher power:weight ratio than brushed electrics with NiMH/NiCd batts. To get a similar power:weight ratio for electrics, you need to go with brushless and LiPo cells, which can be much more $$$ when you get everything together.

To fly nitro planes, you pretty much have to join a club and the AMA, so you have a safe place to fly it, and liability insurance if your plane causes property damage or injuries. There are some very small nitro planes that might qualify as "park fliers", but they are not very common... at least around here. The most common size range of nitro planes for newbies is .46 to .60 sized planes.

Large electrics, the size of .46 sized planes and larger, should really be flown at a club field as well. But smaller electrics or park fliers are relatively safe to fly in large fields or parks.

IMO, the "cool" factor for nitro planes is hard to beat... nothing like have a real internal combustion engine buzzing away in your model plane.

I'd recommend finding a local AMA chartered club and visiting them to see some nitro planes first hand. You might even see some larger electrics there. Hit this link and plug your zip code in to find some clubs near you...
http://www.modelaircraft.org/clubsearch.aspx

If you and your son really don't want to join the AMA and a club, then it's best to just stick with smaller electrics and park fliers... just get something more advanced for him, and perhaps go to a brushless motor and LiPo cells to give it more performance...

Paul has given very good advice, and I'll simply write to reinforce what he's said.

Nitro (glow) powered planes do NOT belong in the local park, sports fields, schoolyards or your backyard (unless you have at least 10 to 15 acres without other homes. Therefore the recommendation for visiting a local club and joining the AMA. AMA would cost $1.00 per year for your son & liability insurance (without the magazine subscription), and many local clubs give junior discounts as well.

A typical glow trainer cruises at about 40 mph, covers a lot of ground quickly, and spins a sharp propellor at around 10,000 rpm. People have lost fingers and a few have been killed by out of control RC planes, so it's best to learn how to operate them safely.

As Paul mentioned, if you and/or your son aren't ready or willing to step up to a club and AMA, then stick with small electrics.

It's a terrific hobby, and I can't think of a better venue than an AMA club for your son to learn comraderie, sharing, and good ethical values. So please, at least check out a club.

Good luck, and keep your son flying safely.
Dennis-

Well, besides the ama and flying field rules....

Nitro has a much quicker turn around for follow up flights. Takes just as long to as it takes for you to pump more fuel in the tank and start her up.

With electrics, you have to have a hand ful of expensive batteries and have a car charger to charge them while you are flying. Most people have a quick charger and 3 or 4 batteries to have in a cycle.

Also, most nitro planes weigh a more, so they can fly with the wind a little easier. I know my aero bird xtreme did well in the wind, but it was one of the exceptions.

yeah, the only problem with nitro is to have extra reciever batteries and you can fly all day, most you can get 4 flights out of..

with nitro, you have as much power when you takeoff as when you land (assuming you have gas left) but you usualy need more room, are louder, and you have to clean them up.

If you want to fly all day with a nitro plane, you either need extra rx batteries or a quick charger.

yes with nitro MOST of the time you have the same amount of power, But sometimes you deadstick also. (which is pretty cool IMO)

if you fly nitro you do not need extra rx batteries all you need is a fast field charger and you can fly all day, 4 flights is about the most flights i would recommend then charge using the field charger and in about 5-10 mins you are in the air again

If you want more flights on an RX pack, get a higher capacity battery. I think most plane flight packs comes with a 600mAh NiCd RX pack, which is pretty wimpy, IMO. I've been putting 1200mAh NiMH RX packs in all of my planes, and I rarely have to field charge them (unless I forget to charge them before I leave for the field).

Seems you have gotten a good view of the nitro/glow side and, for the most part I would agree with many of the things that have been said. Glow fuel is long establish and proven. There are lots of people who enjoy them.

Let me give you the plusses on the electric side. This will not be an us vs. them but I will need to make comparisons, since you asked for them. Many of these you have already experienced, so they will make sense. However I would be happy to expand on anything you like. For the record, I fly gliders and electric parkflyers.


Electrics are clean. No need to fuel proof your planes. No flammable fuels to buy, transport or store. No fuel smell on the model, in the car, on the clothes or in the house. I keep my Aerobird Challenger in the car. Some days I get home from work and head for the field, in my suit. I run 2-5 batteries through the plane. for 30-60 minutes of air time, then pack it up and go home. I would never dream of doing that with a glow plane.

Since there is virtually no motor vibration, the planes can typically be built lighter. There is less concern about isolating electronics from motor vibration or fuel residue.

Electrics are quiet. The typical electric plane can be flow in populated areas without bothering the neighbors. As a result, there are a growing number of flying locations where gliders and electrics are permitted but glow and gas powered planes are not permitted. I fly at such a field. Many of the smaller, slower electrics, like the Slo-V, can be flown in smaller areas that would be very challenging to glow powered planes. Some can be flown in front of your house.

Costs are probably similar - Over time electrics and glow planes will be about the same cost to fly. With the glow planes you need fuel, glow starters, and other stuff. With electrics, you need battery packs and chargers. Glow fuel, based on what I have seen, seems to run in the $25-$50 range. So consider the cost of a gallon of fuel = to the cost of 1=2 battery packs. I don't know how many flights you get on a gallon of fuel, but the typical battery pack is good for 250-500 flights. While you do have to use some electricity to charge them, the cost is neglegiable.

However the prices for electric stuff is dropping quickly and the cost of electrics will probably continue to go down over time. In any case, operating cost is probably not a major advantage of one over the other. I have many battery packs, but some of them are used in several different planes. I have several chargers too, for convenience. My change over time between flights is about 2 minutes.

Radio equipment - Glow and electrics can be flown with the same radio equipment, so there are no differences here. However there are many entry level RTF electrics that fly on low cost 27 MHz frequencies. This allows a very low cost entry to the hobby. I have never seen a glow plane offered on 27 MHz in the US.

While you can convert almost any plane to electric power, if we look at the fastest growing part of the RC market, we see that smaller electrics, parkflyers, are the fastest growing segment. They are convenient to store and transport. They can typically can be flown in smaller spaces. So it is common for electric planes to be smaller and lighter than the glow planes. However there is no reason you can't have an electric plane the size of .40, .60. .90 and larger size glow planes. If really big planes is your passion, I would point you to glow and gas for the next few years, but not much longer than that.

If you need speed, there are stock electric planes that approach 100 mph. Or you can get slow flyers that you can fly in a school gym or even in the house. It is amazing how small electrics can be made.

You can completely power off an electric plane in the air and turn it back on reliably. No stalling in the air to be concerned about. You can't restart a glow plane in the air if it stalls, unless you include some special, expensive onboard equipment.

Since you don't have to start the plane before it is ready to fly, some people feel this makes electrics safer, especially around kids. No spinning props on idling motors need be avoided. You turn the motor on after you set the plane on the runway or you turn it on when you are ready to hand launch.

Likewise there is little or no fussing with tuning your engines with electric power. You hit the throttle and it starts reliably. I have 17 planes and I never spend time tuning motors at the field. They are highly reliable.

I am sure there are others, but those are what come to mind.

Someday I may try glow power, but today I feel no desire to do so.

My personal view is this ... keep your EP planes to a 350 sized motor, be it brushed or brushless and its very cost effective. I have started out on EP and I am enjoying every moment of it. Some planes are so so not fly and do not handle like a balsa nitro plane but some do. I will not say EP is better than nitro but I will say that I love EP.

I get 15% nitro fuel for $10 a gallon, or $7.50/gallon in bulk at my club.

Whoa... lets compare apples to apples here...
To get "nitro plane performance" in a similar sized electric, you need a brushless motor and LiPo batt packs. If you want to fly 3-4 flights without having to wait an hour to recharge your LiPos, you need 3-4 batt packs. A LiPo pack for, say a ".46 nitro" sized electric, is going to run you $80 -$100 easy... now your talking $300 -$400 just for the batteries... that's about a 2 year supply of nitro for me and my .46 sized nitro planes.

Don't get me wrong... cheap, low performance park fliers with brushed motors and NiMH/NiCd cells can be fun, but comparing the cost of running one of those with a much higher performance nitro plane just doesn't make sense. You get what you pay for, and I believe for an electric plane of similar performance and size of a nitro plane, you'll pay much more. For that extra money, you do get a cleaner, quieter plane, relative to the nitro version.

You can... but so what? Why would you want to? If you just want to glide to save power/fuel, you can idle back a nitro plane and then rev it up again too.

IMO, electrics are more dangerous in this respect. To get the prop going on a nitro plane, you have to hook a glow starter up to it and try start it, and once it's running you know it... you can see, feel, and hear it. With an electric, all you have to do is bump the throttle stick...

Well, I fly glow right now, and I'm currently building a small electric foamie with a brushless & LiPo setup, because I want to have a small, clean, quiet, park flyer. This will easily cost me $100 more than nitro plane of similar size and performance. Cost for the foamie... $70 for the brushless motor, $70 for the brushless ESC, and $45 for one LiPo pack... after I get it put together, setup, and maidened, I'll likely buy 2 more batt packs so I can fly 3 flights w/o waiting an hour to recharge the LiPos in between. So the initial cost of this power setup is $185, and it will hit $275 if I want to get 3 flights in an hour. Compare this to a good .15 to .25 sized nitro engine for about $70, and a years supply of nitro, say 10 gallons for this size plane, at $7.50 a gallon, that's $145 total...

I agree with you guys that electric power is cost effective around the speed 400 range. Depending on the motor and set up you could fly up to a 45" plane with performance similar to a glow engine. If you wanted to electrically power a .40 or .60 size model, you are looking at a cost substantially higher than glow fuel. Which has a street price in the mid-west of $13-$15 bucks a gallon. While motors and batteries are cheaper and more powerfully than they've ever been, the cost of engine battery packs remains linear. (ie. motor and batteries for a .60 size plane will cost at least 50% more than a .40 size ) Compared to glow fuel where a large engine costs a bit more and uses a little more fuel. So far, I am all glow but I am considering a project where I turn a glow sport model, Sig 4* into an electric.

PKH and Chevalier,

Thanks for your responses to my post. I got my pricing for glow fuel from Tower Hobbies which I regularly use as a reference site when trying to understand costs.

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXJM38&P=ML
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXA305&P=7
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXA299&P=7


After reading your post, I went back and did find some lower cost packages at about $15-$20 per gallon with shipping. http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXA309&P=7

You say your pricing is being obtained thorugh some club bulk purchase plan. Sounds like a good idea. However for the average flyer, we don't have access to your clubs fuel supply plan. However I do thank you for enlightening this electric flyer.

So, how many flights do you get out of a gallon of fuel. I have no idea. I am sure it depends on a plane, so just pick something, say a .60 based plane.

PHK - from your post

Whoa... lets compare apples to apples here...
To get "nitro plane performance" in a similar sized electric, you need a brushless motor and LiPo batt packs. If you want to fly 3-4 flights without having to wait an hour to recharge your LiPos, you need 3-4 batt packs. A LiPo pack for, say a ".46 nitro" sized electric, is going to run you $80 -$100 easy... now your talking $300 -$400 just for the batteries... that's about a 2 year supply of nitro for me and my .46 sized nitro planes.

Don't get me wrong... cheap, low performance park fliers with brushed motors and NiMH/NiCd cells can be fun, but comparing the cost of running one of those with a much higher performance nitro plane just doesn't make sense. You get what you pay for, and I believe for an electric plane of similar performance and size of a nitro plane, you'll pay much more. For that extra money, you do get a cleaner, quieter plane, relative to the nitro version.

You make a big assumption here that the tens of thousands of electric flyers are trying to equal glow planes for size and power. Sorry, but that is not what I was trying to say nor does that seem to be what people are doing. If we look at the market, we do not see that the vast majority of electric flyers are trying to equal the size and power of glow planes. In fact quite the opposite. The most popular electrics are smaller planes. This allows them to be low cost, quiet, easy to store and easy to transport.

Now, for you this might be a disadvantage, but for the tens of thousands of people flying them, this is a huge advantage.

In any case, I do appologize for my reference to fuel costs that do not reflect your clubs special pricing package. However even at those prices I stand by my statement that over the life of the plane I believe costs will be comparable. But that is only a very minor issue in the overall discussion and really not worth dwelling on.

Life time operating costs certainly had no bearing on my entering or continuing in electric flight. I just find it an interesting academic excersise that has been performed by many before me. The typical outcome is that the typical electric flyer will have comparable operating costs as compare to the typical glow flyer.

I stand by all of my other statements.

[/quote]
Well, I fly glow right now, and I'm currently building a small electric foamie with a brushless & LiPo setup, because I want to have a small, clean, quiet, park flyer. This will easily cost me $100 more than nitro plane of similar size and performance. Cost for the foamie... $70 for the brushless motor, $70 for the brushless ESC, and $45 for one LiPo pack... after I get it put together, setup, and maidened, I'll likely buy 2 more batt packs so I can fly 3 flights w/o waiting an hour to recharge the LiPos in between. So the initial cost of this power setup is $185, and it will hit $275 if I want to get 3 flights in an hour. Compare this to a good .15 to .25 sized nitro engine for about $70, and a years supply of nitro, say 10 gallons for this size plane, at $7.50 a gallon, that's $145 total...
[/quote]

PKH,

I see you are also attracted to the small, quiet, clean parkflyers. So many people are.

So, what foamie are you building?

What lead you go go brushless and Lipo.

I ask becasuse I have not see the need to go brushless or lipo on any of my electrics. I fly mostly speed 300-400 models using nimh packs.

Clearly brushless and lipo are superior technology, but as you noted, they are still costly, as most newer technogies tend to be. The inexpensive brushed motors do a great job on these parkies.

A speed 400 motor can be had for under $10. Speed controls can be in the $15-25 range and NIMH packs can be $15-25 depending on capacity. Of course you can easily build your own NIMH packs and the price can be very low.

Very often you fly multiple planes using the same packs so 3-6 packs with 1-2 field chargers can keep a fleet of planes in the air all day. It is not unusual for me to make 15-30 flights a day, when I am at the field with my parkflyers. Otherwise I am flying sailplanes.

I figure in another 12 months the price of brushless set-ups should be down quite a lot. They have been falling fast already. Lipos are also coming down fast. I just picked up 2000 mah 2s pack for $30, on a sale, just to try it out. However I still direct new electric flyers to brushed motors and NIMH packs for their low cost, good performance and tollerence to misshandling.

I don't direct new flyers to LIPOs since misshandling can be dangerous. An incorrectly charged pack can damaged, or in severe cases, explode. While unlikely, a serious crash could also damage the case on a LiPO creating a safety hazzard. Since new flyers already have a lot on their minds, I don't like to add this to the list.

In any case, I look forward to hear what small electric you are putting into the air.

For me I am into brushless now and outrunners. I can tell you one thing, the planes are small and do not really handle like a nice 40 sized plane but one thing I can say is that the throttle response is so nice! Totally linear. Still its only affordable in the speed 350-400 range of planes. I want a nice 40 sized plane but cannot see the figures making sense at present due to the cost of lipolys. Flight pack of battery has to be about 5S2P for a nice 40 sized plane. That means 10 pieces of 2,000 MaH lipolys that can handle 15C. You will want 3 packs of batteries ... that is one big ouch!

I will say that I am a nitro nut but after trying EP, I am loving it as much.

I definately see a place for both electric and nitro. I don't see this as an either/or situaiton at all.

For me it is electrics and unpowered sailplanes. I imagine that eventually I will fly glow as well and will have all three, each for its strengths.

That is what I tell people. This is not an us vs. them. Electric vs. glow. It is a matter of seeing where each one fits and figure out where your interests are at this moment.

I hope we have given our new flyer some useful things to consider so he can make the decision that is right for him.

aeajr...

Thanks for listening to my "nitro" perspective on the issue! I agree with you, most of the guys getting into e-flight from the start are going with smaller park flyers and foamies.

Why am I going brushless and LiPo? To get great performance with a decent runtime. I've been looking at park flyers and foamies for awhile now, and all of the videos I've seen of brushed motor and NiCd/NiMH setups showed me that these planes did not have the performance I wanted, and most of them were what I would consider underpowered. I've also seen videos of park flyers with really good performance, and they are always brushless/LiPo setups. From what I've seen, if you just want something like an electric glider to do some "gentle" flying, then the cheaper power setup is fine. I saw a friend fly his Aerobird Challenger this weekend, and it looks like a fun plane, but it won't do much aerobatics. I want something with some vertical performance, or very close to it, anyway.

What plane am I building? I'm mainly into SPADs for planes at this point, so I'm building a "SPAD" foamie found on the http://www.spadtothebone.com website (it's on the right side of that page). There's a picture of it below (from the plans, mine isn't completed yet), and you can hit the link below to see a video of this thing flying with a brushless/LiPo setup almost identical to what I'm going to use...

[link=http://spadtothebone.com/videos/sfsflying.wmv]SPAD Foamie Video[/link]

Looks pretty cool!

While there are 3D planes built on brushed motors, the shockflyers series and mountain models planes, for example, a brushless will clearly give you more power. Again nimh will get it done but LIPOs will clearly give you a weight advantage.

I am sure you will enjoy it.