About 6 months ago, I got back into the R/C flying after being away from it for about 20 years. I was amazed by the way ARF models(particularly glow) have improved over the years, such that they are now more popular than kit built planes, at least in my club. I was even more impressed by RTF trainers like the Superstar and Avistar ( I have one of each) and I'm wondering how long it will be before companies like Hobbico and Hangar 9 begin offering RTF glow sport models for intermediate and advanced flyers.

It is said that the main advantages of moving up to an ARF sport model as a second plane are that the modeler saves money by moving the engine and radio from his trainer to the new ship, and also saves time by having a model that is already largely put together. In my experience, however, many fliers upgrade their engine and radio equipment at this point anyway, for improved performance. It's hard to imagine putting the OS .40 LA from my Avistar into a Futana or Sig Somethin' Extra, for example. Also, most ARF planes still require a good 10-20 hours of drilling, sanding, gluing and cussing in order to get them airworthy.

How cool would it be if we could get that Futana complete from the manufacturer with an OS .46 AX and a good 6 channel radio installed? The extra cost of the RTF over the ARF would be justified, I think, by the time and effort saved in final assembly.

There will always be modelers who love to build, and good kits for them to put together, but for those of us (like me) who don't have the time or workspace to put together an ARF, an RTF sport model with a good glow engine would be an ideal product. I'd love to know how other modelers feel about this, and whether anyone knows of such a product that is currently available. If not, hopefully it will only be a matter of time. I'm posting this in both the Beginner and ARF/RTF forums, so hopefully many contributors will respond.

Its the sign of the times we live in. No time, No Space, the need for instant gratification.
Arfs and RTF's are definitly the way that 99% of beginers are getting started. Read the forums, its really hard to find a post where someone built their trainer from a kit. And why is that? Cause overall Quality of ARFS are good and getting better and thanks to labor costs in the asias, costs are keeping down.

What I would like to see is a modified arf. One that came with HIGH Quality, Awesome power engine installed, high quality Rx, battery pack and servos installed. Basically you would just have to pick your crystal out before you left the store to match your radio.

I kind of like tinkering with my planes though, after all its a hobby and what fun is a hobby that is already done for you?

I think much of the fun is choosing the parts, putting it together, and ending up with something unique. Personally, I don't like the RTFs because they force the buyer to accept someone else's choices.

Funny you mention that. When I was younger, I remember how excited I was to get a Tamiya Frog buggy kit for Christmas one year. The greatest part about it was putting the whole thing together and learning how the car worked. About two years ago I got the bug to try cars again and started shopping around. I was appalled to find out that it was actually cheaper to get a nitro stadium truck RTR than it was to buy just the truck kit, let alone the engine and radio![X(] You can't hardly find any cars as kits anymore, except the high-end competition stuff and the Tamiya lineup. And the people that buy them are largely ignorami, bringing them back to the hobby store I shop at every time it won't start or they break a shock mount--don't want to learn to fix it themselves. I agree with you, half(at least) the fun is in building and tinkering. I just hope that the market demand doesn't do to the r/c airplane market what it's done to the r/c car market.

Don't make more than one thread on a topic.

Don't tell me what to do in this forum.

In my case the RTF/ARF's are a godsend. Once I decided to get in the hobby I had to jump with both feet to get in the air and stay in the air quickly.
Once I got in the air I started to build a kit and my goal now is to stay in the air as much as I can, learn to fly the best I can and live long enough to build another kit. And if I finish that one I'm gonna build another.

I think the RTF/ARF's are good for the hobby and all can live happily together.

I always have been the reverse engineering kind of guy anyway.

I think for beginners, RTF's are a dream. When you first begin, you don't know what to get as in servos radios and such, so it really is easier this way. I also think that when you begin, you want to fly so bad. My first was a RTF Superstar, but i will let you know, that will be the only RTF i get.

Certainly as far as trainers go ,you can buy a .40 trainer ARF for like $80 and cant build one for that not between kit,covering,misc hardware, cant be done for that,, and some of the more popular planes are offered in ARF too,,but they are much higher$$...I personally do 1/2A stuff and like to build from plans/scratch its part of the fun for me,,,you crash $10 worth of balsa and you dont feel so bad, and all the stuff will go into your next $10 plane

Motormind... hello from Lincoln!

I don't see RTFs expanding much beyond the class of plane they dominate now. For a beginner, all the guesswork is taken out with the complete RTF package. This makes it easier for a beginner to successfully start the hobby.

Once the pilot becomes experienced, they start to develop preferences for radio, engines, servo's, gear, etc. If the vendor makes a RTF of an advanced plane intended for experienced pilots, they will run into these individual preferences, making the vendor choice of engine/radio etc a hard sell. In your example, I wouldn't want the OS 46AX engine and if the RX isn't Futaba PCM, I wouldn't want that either. The OS 46AX is a fine engine, but I'd prefer a YS63. Nothing wrong with a good Hitec or JR RX and servos, I'd just prefer Futaba. JR rx is wrong shift, and wouldn't work with my TX. So, if the only way I could buy the plane were with the OS and vendor radio, I wouldn't buy the plane. If the vendor tried to please me and sold the RTF with the YS63 and Futaba PCM gear, then another whole bunch of pilots wouldn't like the YS or Futaba gear. Not to mention I already have the engine and radio gear, so again, I wouldn’t want to buy another engine and flight pack when I already have one.

I believe this is why many vendors sell "package" deals where you can get the ARF and the vendor selected gear for that plane at a small discount. If you want the "RTF", get the vendor package deal. If not, just get the ARF. This is a far as I see them going anytime soon with advanced planes. Sure, the package deal isn't as quick as a true RTF, but it doesn't take more than a few hours to install gear in 25% or smaller planes.

What I do see changing in the next several years is that more and more high quality ARFs will be on the market and kits will all but disappear. From my experience, it is generally not possible to build a kit, or scratch build, at the same or lower cost of a typical ARF. This will push kits sales to just those pilots that enjoy building over flying. Personally, I’d rather fly. I will only build so I have something to fly. If it is cheaper to get the ARF than to build, it is pretty much a no brainier. It has nothing to do with instant gratification.

Cheers

I doubt you will see many RTF intermediate planes. What you are more likely to see are Receiver ready planes. After the first plane you will either step up to a computer radio, or you will reuse your radio from the RTF. Either way, you don't need a radio with the plane.

The plane will have servos installed, perhpas a receiver pack, and all you do is buy a receiver on your channel, plug it all in and off you go!

Consider this, in a factory setting in mass production you take an ARF and add rudder, elevator, two aileron servos, maybe extensions and you are all set. But it would cost the average Joe $60-$70 plus time to do it. If it is a glow plane, another servo with adjustable attachmetn for the throttle. If it is electric, then an electronic speed control appropriate to the motor.

That adds maybe $100-150 to the final plane at retail for a typical .40-.60 or an aerobatic Speed 500 electric.

Kits will continue to fade, but will always be there.

ARFs will be the kit of the future.

RTFs will be for beginners

receiver ready will be the RTF for the intermediate and advanced pilot who has no interest in building even an ARF.

If I remember correctly, there have been a couple of 'advanced' planes in the RTF catagory. I don't think their sales were that impressive, but I might be wrong. One I am thinking about is the Avastar by Hobbico and the other was a low winged sport plane, which I can't remember the name! It'll come to me.....one of these days[:-] It was by Cermark.....Bobcat? Right????

Jerry

Avistar is billed as an advanced trainer for intermediate pilots.

The Avistar Select is an RTF package.

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...=LXMU53**&P=ML

For me, I haven't ever bought an RTF. I am not against them, but there are just too many variables that can get in the way, many of them are mentioned in the previous posts. Now...if you had an RTS (Ready to Select), then you have what I think would be a possible winner. A bare bones plane with the construction already done and ready for assembly. It would be something like when you special order a car.

1. Select the engine. (Do you want 4 stroke, 2 stroke, what size....)
2. Select the receiver. (Do you want futaba, hitec, JR...etc.)
3. Select the covering. (you could even add the option to have it come covered or do it yourself. And if covered have the option of sevral different schemes)
4. Select the servos. ( e.g. With the option to put higher torque on the control surfaces and lesser ones on the throttle.)
5. Select it with or wihout the radio.)
6. Select the channel. (Small detail, but for most who already have radios this would be needed.)
7. Select how much of the plane you want assembled.

These could be some of the options that you could have and it would meet the needs of many different flyers. From beginners who want it ready to fly, to ones who want it covered and like an ARF, to those who select the covering and do it themselves. And I gues the final selection could be:

8. Select a box of sticks ...or do you want the bare bones assembled?)

Probably a pipe dream, but wouldn't it be nice to get the plane the way you want it rather than the way someone else thinks it should be?

Sounds great. There are a couple of electrics that can ordered this way. The T-Hawk hs this kind of menu, but the choices are more around the options. Do you want the radio, or do you want to use your own? Do you want the charger or not. NICD or NIMH. That kind of stuff.

Not what you are talking about, but getting there.

The more complex the plane and the more complex the options list, the more expensive these things tend to become.

However, you are right, it would be great to have these kinds of choices.

I may get tomatos thrown at me for this comment, but I thought there was a place to get choices like this. It's called a kit.

Actually the RC future is electric RTF's.

Jim

Your are right on that.... I just thought of another selection:

9. Select your type of builder (Kit, ARF, Scratch, Idiot with hot glue gun)

Hey i am currently building a precedent Hi-Boy Kit at the mo, i do not mind building from kit but the only annoying thing about it is that the instructions are not laid out well. And i think RTF's is a bit too much, yes ARF's are fine to me, at least you still have to put the thing together, and that makes you feel like you have at least made part of it. But RTF's are pointless they do not teach you about building techniques etc. So i am for ARF's but ANTI-RTF's

Interesting how we see things differently. I see a kit as having no chices. You MUST do everything yourself. That is different from picking what I want to do and what I would prefer someone else do. That is choice.

Many people love to build, some love to fly, some love both. I love to fly!

Today it would cost me as much to build a kit as to buy the ARF and it would require a lot of my time. Time I could be flying.

I look forward to the rise of receiver ready planes. Then I can drop in my receiver, balance, trim, set up the radio and got to the field. An hour or two at most.

That would be my choice.

I am not saying that kits should go away. I think they are great for some people. And I may get into them some day when I have more spare time. But for now. ARFs are great. Receiver ready would be perfect.

I don't think RTFs are pointless. If they were, they wouldn't be selling as well as they do. For a beginner that wants to get started in RC, RTFs offer a relatively cheap way with little time investment. I believe this actually helps the hobby because the first time RC pilot is more likely to have a pleasant first impression of the hobby, not to mention they can fly now as opposed to 3 months from now when they finish the kit. How many times have instructors sent pilots home on their first trip to the field because they built or setup their kit wrong? With a RTF, this shouldn't happen.

I believe it is helpful to know how to build, repair, and setup planes. But it isn't strictly required for a beginner to know all that when learning to solo. They can learn it later as the progress to an intermediate pilot. I.E., you don't need to know the interworkings of an automobile to be a good driver, but knowing the interworkings can eventually be useful.

There are RTS's (Ready to Select) now. Just buy the ARF and what ever gear you want. To expect the vendor to have a large list of items that they will install for you in a custom built RTF will probably not happen. There is a logistics problem. Buyer would want the item shipped quickly, like within a few days, which means the vendor would have to do final assembly in the US - expensive. OR, vendor would have to stock a wide range of preconfigured configured RTFs that were build over seas, again expensive becasue of the large investment in inventory. The idea sounds great, but I don't think it will happen wide scale.

Cheers

I'm not anti- any model airplane -- RTF, ARF, kit, or scratch-designed & -built. There is a usefull place for every one of them. Why put yourself in the position of avoiding new experiences & flying fun? They all fly & they're all fun. The RTF trainers are outstanding in their intended role & you certainly don't have to keep your RTF in stock configuration -- there is plenty of creativity & building skill required to convert an RTF trainer into a sky-burning hot rod, or a multi-engined masterpiece.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_29...tm.htm#2907904

This same thread is open in the ARF forum. Above is a link to that thread. I'm closing this one.

Eric